Tyranids?

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**chuckyhol**

Hey all,

Wondering the competitiveness (sp?) of tyranids. From what i see, they have some good things going go them...

Spine gaunts. I can buy three for the price of a single bolter armed marine. Not only that, they move fast, and may occasionally kill something
Carnifexes. Keep 'em cheap, keep 'em heavy. A couple of ST venom cannon shots a turn can hurt anything, and I take three of them. Barbed strangler, venom cannon and perhaps a few gadgets, but keep 'em under 170pts.

Now, I look at their down sides...

Synapse. "Nuff said.
They die. Even stealers with carapace will go down easily, and with assault cannons all over the place it's jsut getting easier.

Now, what's everyones opinions? Right now people are having relative success with the carnie-stealer horde, as well as the huge horde of spine gaunts.

A flyrant is always nice to have, but a walking tyrant with 3 guards and tl devourers can put the hurt on anything.

What's the ideal build? What works, what doesn't? I just dropped a wad of cash on new models, and they'll be fun to paint, and fun to game with. I just want to know if they stand a chance in hell.

Chuck

**coelomate**

Tyranids have some very strong options, and are extremely customizable - which is both a deadly and overwhelming combination.

Optimize a unit of Terminators: 6 men, 2 donkey cannons, done.

Optimize a Carnifex: Good luck. What's better: a 148 point gun fex, a 153 point gunfex with a mace tail, or a 163 point 5 wound gunfex? The differences are so minute as to ALMOST be irrelevant if you stick to a few important rules ("Why buy one when you can have two for twice the price" being chief among them)

Also, I really don't think Synapse is a down side. Only 2 units (Gaunts and Hormagaunts) are greatly effected, and you can be competitive without them or buy nearly invincible synapse instead (2 tyrants with 3 guards? Not going to go down in <2,000 points).

What works:
1) Devourers on damn near anything that can take them
2) Gaunts that cost <= 6 points
3) Naked or near naked Hormagaunts
4) All tyrants, great and small
5) (Cheap) Carnifexes with (lots of) dakka
6) Synapse on Zoanthropes
7) Lots of stealers at <= 20 points (Scuttlers or Carapace, or naked and LOTS)

Stuff that (IMO) DOESN'T work:
1) Warriors. They're just edit-tacular when compared one for one to any other unit trying to do the job. Synapse rules mean Zoanthropes become durable enough to be back up for a well guarded tyrant or two, gaunts and fexes outshoot and outsurvive them in any gun configuration, and raveners are cheaper, as fast/faster and choppier than winged or leaping warriors.
2) Biovores. And it's a shame.
3) Close combat fexes. I think there might be some wisdom in mixed fexes to ensure they're a more complex threat (VC + talons + mace tail + WS/I/Miasma/BS = tasty) but pure CC fexes are gimmicks at best (That being said, I hope someone decides to try an army with 3 250 super CC fexes. It might be fun.)
4) Being too mixed. If you take some of everything, you ensure your opponent has a target for every gun and squad. If you only take 2+ saves and 6+ saves, only a swarm or (nearly) only monsters, saturation will kick in and give you a huge advantage
5) Broodlord. Never heard of him making it to combat.

I think I'll write more later, but those are my opinions on the matter. Mix 1,000 points of monsters and 500 points of stealers/gaunts and I think you'd be hard pressed to go wrong, unless you tool the hell out of every model and ignore the above advice

**mughi3**

have to disagree on the warrior comment. i love them with the proper upgrades that are CC nightmares. i also detest the godzilla lists with the 2+ tyrants and 4+ fex's

nids excell at CC not shooting even with all the upgrades. marines will always outshoot fex's and tyrants but just about nobody including korn berserkers can out CC a nid army.

if i were to build a nid CC army it would be nothing but warriors and rippers

**mortetvie**

Specialization is a key theme with the Tyranids. Kind of like evolution, certain things are designed to do certain things with brutal effeciency and once you figure out how to make the best of every bit of a Tyranid force, you have a very solid army.

In an abstract way, your tyranids can be good at fire support and close combat. They are intrinsically good at close combat as even the weakest close combatant in the army can do damage. The thing I think is important is balance. Do not focus too much on either shooting or close combat, the goal is to win and have fun.

The point of shooting in a tyranid army, in my opinion, is to have some way to wither away at the enemy numbers while you advance. Once in range, just charge and you are good.

**coelomate**

Posted" by="" mughi3="" on="" 04/18/2006="" 9:35="" pm="">
have to disagree on the warrior comment. i love them with the proper upgrades that are CC nightmares.

You are free to disagree, but try backing that up with some numbers. I'd like to see a warrior that can go point for point with raveners for speed or genestealers for damage.

**yakface**

[qutoe]You are free to disagree, but try backing that up with some numbers. I'd like to see a warrior that can go point for point with raveners for speed or genestealers for damage.

**BZArcher**

What points level are you planning to play? There's a lot of flexibility depending on the points level, too.

If you're planning to play below 1000 points, I'd say using a broodlord with a retinue, backed up by more stealers, spinegaunts, and some hormagaunts can really ruin someone's day, especially if you have a Gunfex and 1 or 2 Dakkafexes in your heavy/elite slots.

Above 1000, a two tyrant list seems to be the norm, and the troops I've been playing with successfully have either been tooled up stealers backed up by naked spinegaunts, or a bunch of naked hormagaunts / spinegaunts with a small squad or two of tooled up stealers behind them, and either a bunch of Zoanthropes with psychic scream and either Warp Blast or Synapse, and your happy fun fex bridgade with the remaining ports.

**HFLep**

You're">

1) Our basic units suck at shooting. With a Ld of only 5, and having to use it for all our target priority tests, it's easy for savvy enemies (or just not dumb ones) to force gaunts to shoot at armor 11+ vehicles instead of the nice, juicy infantry a fraction of an inch further away. Which basically means that the points spent on guns on the gaunts are more or less wasted unless you're fighting all-infantry armies or people with no tactical acumen.

2) Inability to destroy vehicles. We can stun them, shake them, and make them not shoot, but the only reliable way to destroy vehicles is through close combat. This is ok for land-based vehicles, like tanks, but fails miserably against skimmers. Against light skimmers, our shooting still does a good enough job of bringing them down. Against heavy-armor skimmers (like Eldar and Tau), you have to count on luck. Which doesn't work most of the time.

3) No squad customization. We can't have any kind of a weapon tht would make a squad a threat to more than just one type of target. Therefore, an enemy has an easy time neutralizing a squad with a correct unit.

4) We have no flame template weapons. I just don't understand this one, personally. Why do Tyranids not have a damn flame-type weapon? I understand the lack of ordnance, I even somewhat understand the lack of reliable anti-vehicle shooting (because, apparently, tyranids, in their long history of evolution, never, ever had to actually penetrate a piece of metal). But why in the world do we not have a single flame weapon? Something to give a gaunt squad so they can shoot it before they charge, or maybe to a member of a gargoyle brood. Or heck, even to a unit of Tyranid warriors.

5) Our elites, outside of the elite 'fexes, are the worst of any codex. We simply have no good choices there. Apparently, the hive mind dipped into the 'reject' pool instead of the 'elite' pool to give us the likes of the Lictor (80 points for a guy who loses combat to IG, yay!) or the Warriors. Compare those to the elites of other armies, and you see that we sorely lack decent choices.

6) The biggest disadvantage, though, is that the Tyranid codex is unique among the latest codexes that has gotten worse than its previous incarnation. If you took a 3rd edition army and translated it, point for point, into the 4th edition codex, you'd be left with an army that cost more. SM and Tau, as an example, do not suffer from this problem. The Tau stuff is actually cheaper than it was before, and the SM stuff, while staying at a similar point value, is more effective (the AC by itself is a huge leap). As the codecies progress, this gap will only get wider. I fully expect the Tyranids to need reworking, much like the DE needed it in 3rd edition. It seems that whatever non-SM army gets put out in the basic box set for an edition gets crappy rules. Yay for us drawing the lot this time. Maybe the Necrons get to get screwed next time.

**The Happy Anarchist**

1) That is why you don't use guants for shooting. They also suck at killing things in close combat. As a matter of fact, they just plain are not good at killing. It's a good thing that they are not for that then, isn't it. They are purely to tie things up, which combined with synapse, they are very good at. Unfortunately, that leaves the optimal gaunt as the cheapo spinegaunt.

2) I fail to see how 6 S6 hits on light vehicles or 1 S10 +.5 S8 (which can pen) are bad against vehicles, even with glancing only. Elite Carnies are tailor made for taking out skimmers and walkers, and heavy carnis are even more tailor made to take out the heavy skimmers of Tau. Slightly worse against crusaders and russes maybe, but they should be able to easily keep them rocking on their heels pretty easily, which means they are not shooting.

3) Designing squads with more than one target in mind is generally considered a bad thing. There is a reason people don't advise Melta/Heavy Bolter squads or Lascannon/flamers.

4) Flame templates are not needed, but would be very cool. Could you imagine the acid belch a Carni or Tyrant could lay down!!! Booyah!!!

5) Yeah. Can't argue there.

6) Can't argue, as I am not willing to point it out.

-----

I think the biggest disadvantage to Nids is that only 1 or 2 armies are really viable, due to Warriors sucking, Genestealers being horribly vulnerable to shooting and gaunts being utterly inept at actually killing anything.

**mughi3**

Posted By coelomate on 04/18/2006 11:52 PM
Posted" by="" mughi3="" on="" 04/18/2006="" 9:35="" pm="">

have to disagree on the warrior comment. i love them with the proper upgrades that are CC nightmares.
You are free to disagree, but try backing that up with some numbers. I'd like to see a warrior that can go point for point with raveners for speed or genestealers for damage.

**skyth**

Ummm...The Ravener can fleet, the warrior cannot. Ravener wins on speed.

**mughi3**

Posted By skyth on 04/19/2006 8:49 PM
Ummm...The Ravener can fleet, the warrior cannot. Ravener wins on speed.

all dependant on how good your fleet roll is.... overal effectivness the warrior is still better.

**mughi3**

Posted By skyth on 04/19/2006 8:49 PM
Ummm...The Ravener can fleet, the warrior cannot. Ravener wins on speed.

all dependant on how good your fleet roll is.... overall effectivness the warrior is still better.

**HFLep**

Sorry for the weird previous post--the board somehow ate a part of my response. On points 1, 2, and 3, Anarchist:

- I agree that the basic spinegaunt is the best shooty gaunt. However, spending even that one point for a spinefist is a waste since you will hardly ever use it. That was my point, that basic gaunts waste points on having to buy guns they won't use effectively.

- I said that we can make enemies not shoot until we get to them, which works great for normal tanks. The problem is the high-armor skimmers like Tau Hammerheads and Devilfish, as well as Eldar Falcons. Tyranids have enourmous problems dealing with those. Even if they manage to stun them and make them not move for a turn, they are hard-pressed to exploit the advantage with a penetrating hit since their main anti-tank gun can't penetrate, and their only really good anti-tank shot is both short-ranged and only hits half the time.

- When I say diversify, I mean the likes of this: a squad with a flamer and a powerfist. Now it can deal with light infantry, heavy infantry, and, if needs be, even a vehicle, if it charges it in close combat. It can at least put up a fight against most threats. Tyranids can't, with the possible exception of Genestealers.

Thanks for agreeing with my other comments, though. I would love to see the flamespurt or strangleweb come back.

**coelomate**

mughi3:

I was going to write a long reply countering your ideas and your list, but I'll just save us the time and point out the warrior you described is 48 points, not 38, and as a result the list you posted actually clocks in at a modest 2,298 points.

To summarize the points I would have made and proven otherwise: warriors tend to be about as survivable, less effective in CC, and more expensive than either stealers or raveners.

Also, for the record, you've designed about the worst ripper swarms imaginable on top of it.

Next!

**vsurma**

Tyranid Sniperfex (VC/BS) is pretty decent against hammerheads in my book. its 148pts (or 163pts with 5 wounds)

Puts out on average 1 S10 and 0.5 S8 hits a turn.

0.833 glances a turn. If it is stunned this changes to
0.75 glances and 0.083 penetrates a turn

For the cost this is already not bad, now figure in the fact that the Fex is VERY tough for tau to kill, yes the hammerhead can outrange it but if it is doing this then it will not be paying itself off this game! not to mention that said HS fex can afford to advance through the center of the table, this means the that the Hammer will have a rather hard time actually trying to play the range game.

Hammer on average, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds (factor in 5+ cover) 2.2 wounds, the 180pts hammerhead will be doing under half its own points worth in dmg, so basically we don't have to worry about the solid shot.

Now granted the hammer is still rather hard to kill but chances are your fex will have a better time scoring the mission objective than the hammerhead (personal experience) and that 1 glance a turn you are averaging in the tank is going to cause some damage sooner or later, not to mention it will be silencing its guns.

So wait....why is it I should be scared of the hammer? That might be shooting 4 shots a turn on average and causing just over 1 wound to my fexs? hmm yea, sounds scary....180pts you say.... yea, shakin in my boots.

Falcons are not that much better imo, though EVEN harder to kill, their shooting power is not that much better.
1.5 starcannon hits and 0.75 pulse lazer hits on average.
0.75 starcannon wounds and 0.625 oulse lazer wounds. 1.375 total (5+ cover) 0.917 wounds in per turn on a fex (pretty much their best target....thank god the tanks don't have flamers)

Now granted the 5.5 wounds the falcon can be putting out per game before counting any shaken/stunned/destroyed results is alot better, still not exactly paying itself off unless it is actually using its transport capacity or scoring at the end of the game but alot better than the hammerhead. It however takes glances alot easier and due to lower AV our BSs have alot easier time getting pens after stunns.

Course those magical crystals that sometimes let them ignore damage results and the holofield againt makes things more difficult. Lower range atleast brings them into our gun range if they want to fire on us.

Here our fex is manageing 0.834 VC glances, 0.25 BS glances (0.167 pens if stunned)

Then we have our VC tyrant which is just built to destroy Falcons (is there a better killer at 36"?)
2 hits, 1 glance on average, DS 0.88 hits, 0.29 glances (0.145 pens if stunned) (not that many use the DS)

Granted if the enemy saturates the field with 6 skimmers, well we don't have 6 shooters to counter, best we can field is 2 VC tyrants and 3 VC/BS fexs. Or replace a fex with 3 Zoans, S10 shots that can pen do rather well against stunned av 12 skimmers if they can get into range. Still what with the enemy losing power each time a tank remains shaken while we do not untill a MC actually dies I would not say it is hopeless.

Course not everyone runs as much antitank as I do in my own list (VC tyrant, 2 HS sniperfexs, 3 Zoans) And even this will not have an easy time with 6 eldar skimmers (esp with 3 vypers thrown in) but the same goes for most armies, if you take alot of antitank then your fine against armour but not against hordes and vice versa.

Still saying nids lack antitank is not really accurate, you can take a decent amount of it if you want, whether you chose to do so is another thing.

**The Happy Anarchist**

You are neglecting elite Carnis. 6 S6 hits a turn. Devastating against vypersquadrons, and dangerous even to falcons.

**HFLep**

The hammerhead is a bigger threat to the small bugs than the big ones. I'm happy if they want to shoot the str 10 slug at something. It's the pie plate shot that I worry about.

It's not just the tanks, though. As Tyranids (and as folks who don't play Godzilla armies), you want to get into combat with infantry. Now, if the enemy has all fliers, with skimmer transports (like the Tau and Eldar can have) that are both well armored and close-topped, you are hard-pressed to get into combat with the infantry. A skimmer will hardly ever have a penetrating hit on it to force the pasangers to disembark, and the glancing hits are not super-reliable in bringing one down for the infantry to be assaulted. At the same time, most of these flying transports have good anti-infantry shooting, enabling them to make their points back while we have to choose between shooting at the transports so the infantry spills out to allow us to get some points back, or shooting at tanks so we have our big stuff around to shoot at the transports later on. I mean, yes, sure, if you run a list with 8 MC's you don't care about most of the anti-infantry weapons mounted on the transports and your only real threat is the skimmer tanks. But if you do anything a bit more balanced, this becomes a huge problem. With the addition of the rule in 4th that makes CC attacks against skimmers count as if the skimmers moved over 6", it makes it so we can't even penetrate them in close combat, even if we do get lucky enough to hit them. To put it simply, Tyranids have a very tough time dealing with mechanized Tau, and a rough time with mechanized Eldar. Additionally, the skimmer tanks and transports, these days, are, in my opinion, way too good a unit. They are the only thing out there that can only ever be glanced, have all kinds of special equipment to downgrade potentially deadly shots, and are as well armored as some main battle tanks, all for a reasonable price. I've found more and more players either going with skimmers or with no vehicles at all because of this.

However, what makes Tyranids even worse at dealing with skimmers than other armies is one thing: even if we managed to make the vehicles not move for a turn (via a stun, for example), we still can't exploit it for a shot that will penetrate them the next turn. Our Warp Blasts are unreliable (bs 3) few (max of 5, and only if you want to gimp your 2 Tyrants BS, so more like a max of 3), and short-ranged (18"). No skimmer, even if stunned, actually needs to be within 18" of a Zoanthrope. Our Venom Cannons simply cannot penetrate them, and our str 8 Barbed Stranglers are few in number (3 max) with a gakky BS (3), with only one shot, and only a small chance of actually penetrating if we do hit. So, to get a penetrating result on a skimmer (let's say a Tau Hammerhead) that we stunned the previous turn (or simply didn't move the previous turn) we'd need an average of either 4 Warp Blasts, all within 18", all who pass their Ld tests, or a whopping 12 str 8 barbed strangler shots. Compare this to a something like IG with lascannons, who need only 6 lascannons shots (on average), which is not at all hard to pull off in an IG army. A single anti-tank squad has 3 already. The SM have an easier time yet, as both their AC's and Lascannons will do well against the stunned skimmers, and they have meltaguns they can move up and fire to help. Basically, Tyranids are way behind the curve on actually being able to open skimmer transports and tanks up. We have to rely on shooting to do it, and our anti-vehicle shooting sucks too much to rely on.

**gorgon**

I agree that knocking down skimmers is priority number one for Tyranids. Heavy skimmers give me lots of trouble, light skimmers (AV10) less so. People ask why take Termagants...light skimmers is my answer. You don't plan around them knocking down anything, but when opportunities arise (and they will, regardless of what people Theoryhammer), you have a shot, and that takes pressure off your VCs.

For the record, I think Warriors get a bad rap. They don't assault like Raveners and they're not the lurking little synapse machines that Zoeys are. But they can do a little of both, and there's a lot less competition for them in Elites compared to Ravs and Zoeys. I like to keep my medium bugs diversified.

Broodlords just aren't what they should be. Lictors too. Usually the pendulum swings from edition to edition, but it just hasn't swung back for Lictors. Frankly, I dunno why they added the BL at all...a nastier, back-to-its-roots Lictor would have filled that role.

**vsurma**

You are neglecting elite Carnis. 6 S6 hits a turn. Devastating against vypersquadrons, and dangerous even to falcons.

Indeed they are, ofcourse convincing your opponent and his 12" move 36" range guns to come within 24" of your elite fexs is another matter.

Luckily the skimmers don't cause such a huge threat, it is true we don't have the antitank capabilities of some other races but I think we can get by, Hammers don't do too much dmg unless you run stealers/warriors. Falcons also likely kill less than their own points cost in a game.

The whole glances only thing can get rather annoying though, Having stunned my opponents land speeders in atleast 3 turns and still not actually killing 1 of them all game was rather annoying, if I could have penned them they would have falled.

I can live with what we have though, against most our antitank fexs do a pretty decent job imo.

**mughi3**

Posted By coelomate on 04/20/2006 1:22 AM
mughi3:

I was going to write a long reply countering your ideas and your list, but I'll just save us the time and point out the warrior you described is 48 points, not 38, and as a result the list you posted actually clocks in at a modest 2,298 points.

To summarize the points I would have made and proven otherwise: warriors tend to be about as survivable, less effective in CC, and more expensive than either stealers or raveners.

Also, for the record, you've designed about the worst ripper swarms imaginable on top of it.

Next!

hmm looks like i forgot to add in the talons and claws......my mystake, still could do it, just un modifiy the rippers and mabey loose a few warriors overall.

**FabulousRex**

Well, there's one other unit out there for 'nids that gets less respect than the Warriors, Gargoyles. I run a Genestealer horde, and having some cheaper, faster, skimmer-harassing Gargs around really beefs up numbers and causes havoc for my enemies. This is because of the awesome Bio Plasma. Normally you need 6's to hit, which sucks, but BP auto-hits on a 4+, ignoring that pesky rule. Combined with their speed, these little guys are fantastic harassers against those accursed Tornados. Getting 2 S4 chances to hit per Garg really adds up when you consider their relatively low cost (compared to Genestealers).

My 1500pt army is as follows, and is pretty decent for what it does:

Flyrant w/Devourer- 170

4x12 Genestealers w/ Scuttle, Hooks- 960

16 Gargoyles- 192

Shootyfex w/Regen (modelled before finding out it's wasteful, oh well)- 178

**The Happy Anarchist**

I thought most people agreed Gargoyles were one of the best bang for your buck units in the Nid codex, but they are very expensive and you need lots of them, so most did not use them.

I mean, don't the cost the same as a hormie, but better in every way?

**blue loki**

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 04/27/2006 10:30 AM
I thought most people agreed Gargoyles were one of the best bang for your buck units in the Nid codex, but they are very expensive and you need lots of them, so most did not use them.

I mean, don't the cost the same as a hormie, but better in every way?

Yes, Gargs were one of the few things that you couldn't grow on your own for a lesser cost or higher effectiveness. They have always been a good unit, but you need many of them and you are limited to 3 FA slots (which means fewer Raveners). The main problem has always been the models themselves and their $$$ cost.

**FabulousRex**

That is a very good point. My idea was to just take normal Terms and slap some wings on them along with adjusting the pose slightly for a more 'flying' feel. Works well. Just trade with some other Nid players that are amassing a swarm of Horms, but don't feel the need to use Terms. Some swapping and trading later and you're golden.

**undertaker**

Well when your comparing ravs and warriors

Rav- 40pts RC/ST
WS 5- BS 3 - S 4- T 4- W 2- I 5- A 3(4)- LD 10- SV 5+

and can fleet, charge 12 and DS

Warrior- 38pts RC/ST also (+1 I) (+1Sv) Leaping
WS 4- BS 2- S 4- T 4- W 2- I 5- A 2(3)- LD 10- SV 4+

Has leaping, synapse

So i wouldnt say warriors are worthless, it just depends on what your looking for.

**GrimTeef**

I have found Gargoyles to be very effective. I have a fetish for deep-striking troops for some reason, and I bought 16 Gargoyles some years ago (when this was much more financially feasible). They are death to light skimmers and their Movement allows them to be where they need to be to overwhelm the enemy. They went up in points this turn-round, but I still gladly pay it.

Warriors are still a mixed bag for me.

Zoes are great with Blast and Synapse. Last game I had they kept everything together and their warp blast (low power template) was put to great use. I would take them again in a heartbeat.

I would much rather have Termas as opposed to Spinas. S4 can actually do something to vehicles and light skimmers, and I would rather have one S4 hit than a S3 with a re-roll to hit. The Termas, charging in and firing (assuming you didn't Fleet) can do some good damage to non-Meqs.