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Hello all,

Sorry if I am ignorant on the matter, I don't know a lot about what happened on the ground in WW2, my interest in WW2 started with planes as a kid so I know more about the air wars than the ground ones.

For someone just getting in to WW2 table top games one thing that is annoying me is getting a somewhat historically accurate colour scheme for my army. I don't necessarily want to try and mimic a certain battle, I'm just trying to put together a force that could have plausibly existed but I don't have the requisite knowledge to do that!

So, I have googled around for information and guides to figuring out how to paint my tanks and uniforms. Most of what I've read (on the tank side) just goes in to how the yellow/red brown/green camo scheme came in to being, with the dark yellow for the north african vehicles and white wash for winter, but then I look at colour schemes for tanks and see there's a whole lot of variety:

http://s716.photobucket.com/user/earlofgrey/library/Color%20Profiles/Tiger%20I?sort=6&page=1
http://s716.photobucket.com/user/earlofgrey/library/Color%20Profiles/StuG?sort=4&page=1
http://s716.photobucket.com/user/earlofgrey/library/Color%20Profiles/Panzer%20IV?sort=4&page=1

So what I'm trying to ask, how on earth do you figure out how to paint your tanks if you don't want to go with the "standard" schemes of grey or yellow or yellow/brown/olive? For example, I really like the look of these:





But they're all different periods, so would you just paint all of them (the Stug, the Tiger and the Panzer IV in the same scheme) or would you simply not have them all in the same army since it might have been an individual group that painted their tanks like that?

Alternatively these are also cool:




Obviously if I were just painting a single tank for a diorama or some such I could just pick a scheme and go with it, I don't know where to start trying to figure out which schemes go together for an entire army though.

I have always liked unified schemes, so the StuG painted in a similar fashion top the Panzer IV's and Panzer II's and the Tigers, but if that's not something that would have realistically happened then I won't do it... I'm just not sure how to figure out what DID realistically happen

Initially I was thinking of either a mid to late war German army on the Eastern front, though maybe I'll go Afrikakorps, I'm still open to it.

I just paint stuff how I fancy in schemes relevant to that period of the war.

Some units did have vehicles in similar schemes (even matching schemes with dactory applied vehicle camo), others didnt.

Indeed, late war germans, pretty much any combination of Dark Yellow, Olive Green and Red Brown works!

DAK is more or less plain sand but they did have some improvised camo schemes.

In a lot of cases units painted their own vehicles, so you'd see a lot of variation in terms of camouflage patterns (although usually they'd use the same colors). In the later period of the war, you'd often see a base layer of Dunkelgelb (the yellow color) with olive green and red brown over top (that's the basic three color camouflage. Several of the tanks in your pictures look like two color camo with a Dunkelgelb base and then just red brown or olive green over top.

Are you concerned about replicating a particular pattern, or are you more concerned about the colors?

Piers,

My gaming group is about to shift from Normandy to the Ostfront and I'm having trouble finding winter cam/ whitewash info online. If a vehicle like a Jagdpanther that didn't see action till late was sent to the eastern front would it be realistic for it to be gray underneath the white or would it more likely have gotten the dunklegelb at the factory.

Looking forward to our new snow board! We've about worn the summer France one to death.

I'm not Piers, but they stopped using grey when they switched to Dunkelgelb in 1943. The Jagdpanther would have been Dunkelgelb, and most likely whitewashed in the field.

 Hordini wrote:
I'm not Piers, but they stopped using grey when they switched to Dunkelgelb in 1943. The Jagdpanther would have been Dunkelgelb, and most likely whitewashed in the field.

Ok good to know as it is already a dunklegelb with a Normandy camo scheme. All the whitewash painting techniques I've looked up seem to use a white undercoat with some sponge chipping to create the wear. Putting white over dunklegelb might get a bit difficult.

Yes, would be yellow, though I have seen evidence for some with an overall olive green tone from dikuted olive grun sprayed over yellow.

For whitewash, look up the hairspray technique.

Big P wrote:
Yes, would be yellow, though I have seen evidence for some with an overall olive green tone from dikuted olive grun sprayed over yellow.

For whitewash, look up the hairspray technique.

That's interesting. Would that have been factory applied or something done by units in the field?

Certainly a field unit overspray, most likely done in Holland/Belgium at the end of 44. I think it was s.Abt 653 who did it after Normandy.

I can dig it out, have a pic somewhere.

I found this website to be incredible: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/

Hargus56 wrote:
I found this website to be incredible: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/

Yeah thanks, that is useful. I'm starting to get a bit of a handle on it.

I guess my concern was I'd LIKE to have an army with a consistent scheme assuming that it historically feasible** and wasn't sure if just because I've seen a Panzer IV H painted a certain way (say Dunkelgelb base with olive green bands) that I'd also see a StuG III G, a Panther and a Tiger I painted the same way, even though the tanks all might have existed at the same time I don't know whether you'd ever actually see them all painted that way. Not to mention things like a Hanomag or sdkfz 222.





**(not going to say accurate, because I'm not trying to recreate a specific force, just one that could have potentially existed)

Yeah Germans are just tough so many vehicles and so many camo schemes. Much easier to just go American Green with big stars which they would do so their air support would not shoot them. I would refer to that link I posted and pick your favorite scheme and run with that are if you are being historically accurate pick a theater and year and then check that site for camo schemes.

This is supposition, but I think, valid...
Tanks were painted by three different groups of people:
1. The manufacturers, all vehicles would leave the factory with a greater or lesser paint job.
2. The troops to whom the vehicles were issued. The crew were issued with the green and red paint to apply locally to the dark yellow surfaces as circumstances dictated.
3. Field refitting, as a vehicle was repaired, so it would be painted before return to the front.

I think it's likely that a troop of vehicles would look similar, the boss had told his minions how to apply the paint to fight in the forest...
But different troops would have a different slant, "We've run out of red, well just use more green..."

Hope this helps
Huey

After looking at I think hundreds of pictures, I think I'll go for what basically amounts to mid to late 1943 German army, based loosely around Kursk.

Would I be correct in saying these tanks (all from Kursk) would be painted Dunkelgelb from the factory and then probably Olive green camo painted by the tank groups themselves?







I can't find Panthers from Kursk painted the same way, but I can find late 1943 Panthers that are similar. It seems like a common scheme mid to late 1943.

I can't find any StuG's painted that way either, but I found this one, also from Kursk...

Would it be chocolate brown over dunkelgelb?



I haven't found any armoured cars/transports from Kursk as of yet but I'm just going to assume they were painted similar, or would that be horribly wrong?

All those tanks look like Dunkelgelb with Olivgrün (olive green). The StuG looks like Rotbraun (red brown) over Dunkelgelb.

The olive green and red brown would have been applied in the field.

Is your goal to find a tank in a picture and paint the pattern exactly the same way? You can do that if you want to, but you really don't have to. The actual field-applied patterns varied widely - there was no official pattern for the three color camouflage (Dunkelgelb, red brown, olive green). You'll see everything from stripes to spots to patterns like on that StuG, in both two- and three-color variations (with Dunkelgelb as the base, and green or brown or both).

I don't think I'll try and mimic the camo layout exactly, I'll do a mix of olive green patches over dunkelgelb (like on the Panzer IV and III in those pictures) on some tanks with bands on other tanks (like the Tiger in that picture).

As I paint them I'll probably invent new ways of doing the camo, but I'll still to olive green over dunkelgelb for the Panzers and maybe do the StuG's and armoured cars rotbraun over dunkelgelb.

Now I just have to figure out how to do the infantry

On 18 February 1943, all vehicles were ordered to be painted in a base coat of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (dark yellow). Only small pieces of equipment were to retain their previous color. On top of the Dunkelgelb base coat, stripes ofRotbraun RAL 8017 (red-brown) and Olivgrün RAL 6003 (olive green) was applied.The Rotbraun and Olivgrün paint was delivered to the units in tins, which were thinned with any available liquid. It was then applied by the maintenance section, which allowed the pattern to match the terrain.

This also resulted in a wide variety of patterns, from elaborate sprayed camouflage, to patterns that look like they were smeared on with a broom and rag.To standardize and improve camouflage patterns, on 19 August 1944, it was ordered that all vehicles were to be painted at the factory. 

So from Feb 1943 to August 1944 is when the very varied schemes would have been around, then 19 Aug 1944, that was the Ambush camo scheme, yeah? I think I'm getting the hang of it At first I was just overwhelmed because there's soooo many pictures of different schemes and I was just looking at images trying to see a pattern to why different tanks were painted different ways.

Kinda.

Various schemes existed all the time as field units would respray as needed.

Ambush pattern does seem to appear from Sept 44.

Also, vehicles that were in the field, and not painted in the ambush scheme would hardly have been sent back for a repaint, so would have retained their previous "homemade" schemes.

Ok, next question, I'm wanting to use 15mm scale models initially. For infantry, would mid 1943 be considered "late war" models, like the late war Plastic Soldier Company models?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Ok, next question, I'm wanting to use 15mm scale models initially. For infantry, would mid 1943 be considered "late war" models, like the late war Plastic Soldier Company models?

1943 is still mid war, but depending on the equipment they have they could work perfectly fine for LW.


Edit - I just looked at the PSC kit. You could use them for 1943 on. Mid 1943 is late MW, so the PSC kit should work for both.

Is there some references around on how I should paint infantry from Kursk?

I feel like I've gone from "oh it doesn't have to be perfectly historically accurate" to "well I've gone this far I might as well go all the way"

I'm trying to figure out how to paint the smocks, zeltbahns and helmet covers. Googling for reference pictures I can only find things in black and white or from other periods of the war.

Also with the uniforms, it seems Kursk dioramas are often going for more of a dark green rather than the green-grey I typically associate with "Field Grey", is that accurate or does it not really matter?

So no one has any idea on the Kursk infantry colours?

I have done the camo on the first 2 StuGs, not sure I like how it came out. I think I either went too pale on the Dunkelgelb or too dark on the Olivgrün.

Obviously I need to weather it now, but I don't want to weather it until I'm happy with the colours of the camo.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
So no one has any idea on the Kursk infantry colours?

I have done the camo on the first 2 StuGs, not sure I like how it came out. I think I either went too pale on the Dunkelgelb or too dark on the Olivgrün.

Obviously I need to weather it now, but I don't want to weather it until I'm happy with the colours of the camo.

Those colors look really good, actually. Why are you so concerned about being too dark or two light? Are you basing that off of something? In practice, both colors could vary widely based on the source of paint in addition to weathering and things like that.


As far as infantry at Kursk, they should be about the same as any other 1943 German infantry. Feldgrau, while also varying in color, tended to be more green than grey anyway.

As an example, all the uniforms in this photo are technically Feldgrau.

 Hordini wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
So no one has any idea on the Kursk infantry colours?

I have done the camo on the first 2 StuGs, not sure I like how it came out. I think I either went too pale on the Dunkelgelb or too dark on the Olivgrün.

Obviously I need to weather it now, but I don't want to weather it until I'm happy with the colours of the camo.

Those colors look really good, actually. Why are you so concerned about being too dark or two light? Are you basing that off of something? In practice, both colors could vary widely based on the source of paint in addition to weathering and things like that.

The more I look at it the more it's growing on me. Most models I see painted in the dunkelgelb/olivgrun scheme from Kursk fade out the green a lot more. I just used what Battlefront recommends for Olivgrun from the Vallejo line.

Though I have a feeling it's because when people usually paint this sort of model they just do a light spray of the olivgrun so it doesn't look so dark over the dunkelgelb. Because the Tamiya olivgrun looks similarly dark on the colour swatches but models I've seen that use it are often much lighter.

The downside to having such stark contrast between the dunkelgelb and the green is that the details of the model get swallowed up by the camo scheme. I think that's why I disliked it at first, but I'll weather one up and see how it comes out.

As far as infantry at Kursk, they should be about the same as any other 1943 German infantry. Feldgrau, while also varying in color, tended to be more green than grey anyway.

As an example, all the uniforms in this photo are technically Feldgrau.

Thanks. I knew it varied a lot, I was just hoping someone actually had a reference for what it would be around mid 1943. I think I was inspired by BipP's models where he painted different tones for different regions and wondered how he knew what colour to paint them

If you want the details to pop more, you could use a thin wash over top of everything. I prefer brown and would recommend that, but black might work too if you're careful. Depends on the kind of look you're going for.

If you're not sure, just try it on a small part of the model that you can easily fix if you don't like it.


In terms of the uniforms, it could just as easily be any of those seen in the picture around 1943. It could vary by unit, region, time since their last issue, and even by individual soldier (soldiers who had been with the unit longer would naturally have more faded uniforms, while new recruits sent to the front from training could likely have fresher uniforms, or uniforms that varied from what the rest of the unit had simply from being from a different batch).

In addition, most of the photos you'll find are black and white. While there are some color photos, it's going to be extremely difficult to find enough evidence to definitively confirm the exact shade of Feldgrau an entire unit at Kursk in 1943 had. It is also, quite honestly, a mostly pointless endeavor as well.

In summary, I think you are really over-thinking this. Just find a shade of Feldgrau that you think looks about right and go with it. Unless the color you pick is something other than a shade of Feldgrau, nobody is going to say "Hey man, those don't look like 1943 uniforms!"

The only caveat to that is that some units did have reed-green uniforms, which was a different shade, and that might be something worthwhile to research. But as long as you're not trying to model a unit with reed-green uniforms, the exact shade of the Feldgrau is not going to be a problem.

Ok cool, well, I'll start weathering one of the StuGs and see how it comes out.

I'll just pick a dark green grey for the infantry.

For the camo on infantry... I found one website that said it was basically impossible to nail down when and where different smocks/helmet covers/zeltbahn were used, so I'll just pick one or two that go well with the field grey I guess

Given the smocks had issue dates, sounds like a lazy website...

But you wont get much better than a year of issue in most cases.

Big P wrote:
Given the smocks had issue dates, sounds like a lazy website...

But you wont get much better than a year of issue in most cases.

Yeah, Big P beat me to the punch. It shouldn't be that hard to find out if your unit of choice likely had camouflage smocks or not.