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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




The reason I ask is that you seem to have an impressive array of Custodes models, and I've love to see how they look.

Yeah, on bikes, the Hurricane is pretty much your best bet unless you know in advance you'll be running against heavy mech or heavy infantry, ala DG or IH/DA. I usually run 3 HB, 1 Missile, in a pack of 4. So if anything ugly shows up, I have at least one weapon on my bikes that can really put some hurt on it. Otherwise, it's charge and melee.

Also, I know this is the Custodes Tactics Forum, but the List approval thing is really for the 40k Army Lists forum. It's not hard to make the mistake.
   
Made in dk
Been Around the Block




ah, sorry. makes sense. I actually thought if that was a bit too much. sorry for spamming lists. won't happen again.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




So with the just released black templar reveal, the leaks grow to me more and more credible. I think it's starting to become at least very plausible that we'll get our codex release in december.
I'm really curious about the direction GW is going to take custodes from a gameplay/tactics perspective.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Without a complete revamp of the faction, I mean from the fluff, I don't see how they can buff us without making us broken. If they give us half of what has been suggested here, the DW and DE players will revolt. 4W troop infantry with multiple attack profiles, and fixed damage? 8-9 wound HQs with multi-attack profiles, fixed damage, and they cost less?

I think GW has been pushing the new IG hard of late, with three releases. I can see them continuing that in Dec. Others have also suggested IF, which makes sense to me.

I hope we get a new dex in December, but I really don't see us getting anything big. Remember, we aren't even struggling right now. We are still a High A tier faction. Are we S tier, no. But we're not F tier either (GSC, Tau) Be happy with what you have.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Without a complete revamp of the faction, I mean from the fluff, I don't see how they can buff us without making us broken. If they give us half of what has been suggested here, the DW and DE players will revolt. 4W troop infantry with multiple attack profiles, and fixed damage? 8-9 wound HQs with multi-attack profiles, fixed damage, and they cost less?

I think GW has been pushing the new IG hard of late, with three releases. I can see them continuing that in Dec. Others have also suggested IF, which makes sense to me.

I hope we get a new dex in December, but I really don't see us getting anything big. Remember, we aren't even struggling right now. We are still a High A tier faction. Are we S tier, no. But we're not F tier either (GSC, Tau) Be happy with what you have.


You're going really fast from a position of not being able to imagine that we'll get a codex at all, because why should gw even bother with custodes, to basically saying we don't deserve any updates at all and anyone who suggests otherwise isn't grateful enough that we're not bottom tier.

Some small buffs are needed. +1W on our infantry wouldn't be OP, especially against drukhari which you yourself used as an example, because almost all of their units trade up extremely well for their cost. A unit of incubi still shreds our Infantry if they get the charge/fight last even with 4W.

Nobody suggested that we should be OP, neither the proposals I've made before nor the proposals Eihnlazer made recently were aimed to make us OP, just to bring us up to 9th, especially considering what space marines got (*cough* deathwing knights *cough*)

But hey, it's not like we have any influence over how GW wrote the dex. We'll see soon enough anyway if the leaks are true.

Edit: also everyone basically agreed that if we get wound buffs and fixed damage, our cost should go up slightly. Maybe aside from terminators, which are grossly overcosted.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/19 11:55:06


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




What is overcosted? It's a S5 T5 model with 4 wounds, 4 attacks, 2BS/2WS, and a pair of weapons that are both going to wound most things on a 3+. The spear with 1CP. As for their cost, we have nothing to really compare them to. There is no other S5T5 2+ 4++ 4W unit to compare them to, with their offensive capabilities, and built in abilities. We'll go Deathwing Knights. They have:

-1 Movement
2/3 attacks
No shooting to speak of.
No slayer of Tyrants.
No character Targeting (Doesn't matter as they can't shoot, but still.)
No free Deepstrike.
Flail of Unforgiven and it's wonky damage ability that likely won't matter.
A deny the witch Ability.

Yeah, not a good unit to compare to the Allarus Terminator.

Everyone needs to stop making the SM some boogeyman that we need to "catch up" to. The DA haven't had many top three finishes since launch and Custodes have been at the top of most listings since launch. Stop chaising something that isn't that importand.

Besides, DW knights cost more than Allarus if you go by Power Rating. Knights are 3 more than Allarus.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What is overcosted? It's a S5 T5 model with 4 wounds, 4 attacks, 2BS/2WS, and a pair of weapons that are both going to wound most things on a 3+. The spear with 1CP. As for their cost, we have nothing to really compare them to. There is no other S5T5 2+ 4++ 4W unit to compare them to, with their offensive capabilities, and built in abilities. We'll go Deathwing Knights. They have:

-1 Movement
2/3 attacks
No shooting to speak of.
No slayer of Tyrants.
No character Targeting (Doesn't matter as they can't shoot, but still.)
No free Deepstrike.
Flail of Unforgiven and it's wonky damage ability that likely won't matter.
A deny the witch Ability.

Yeah, not a good unit to compare to the Allarus Terminator.

Everyone needs to stop making the SM some boogeyman that we need to "catch up" to. The DA haven't had many top three finishes since launch and Custodes have been at the top of most listings since launch. Stop chaising something that isn't that importand.

Besides, DW knights cost more than Allarus if you go by Power Rating. Knights are 3 more than Allarus.


One death wing knight costs 47 points as opposed to 75 for our terminators.
They have 3 attacks due to shock assault, permanent transhuman physiology, they hit on 2+ with S8 and flat 3 dmg. They even have better AP when in assault doctrine than our axes and they can get a - 1dmg banner buff and they can be rezzed via an apothecary. They have a 1+ save and a 4+ invuln. They outperform our terminators both in dmg output and in toughness, all for 28 points per model less than our terminators.
It's similar but not as bad with deathshroud terminators and you're seriously telling me that's a bad comparison? Take a good look at both units again.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I guess my only answer is that the Knights are much harder to get into the thick of the fight, and earn their points back, whereas Allarus can be in melee Turn 2, with dead characters all over. Is an allarus blob the most cost effective unit in the game? No. Does a group of 5 of them scare me a lot more than a group of 5 knights? Hell yes. YMMV
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess my only answer is that the Knights are much harder to get into the thick of the fight, and earn their points back, whereas Allarus can be in melee Turn 2, with dead characters all over. Is an allarus blob the most cost effective unit in the game? No. Does a group of 5 of them scare me a lot more than a group of 5 knights? Hell yes. YMMV


How so? Both custodes terminators and deathwing knights can deepstrike innately, but deathwing knights are also more likely to survive walking across the field, due to their higher overall survivability, while being what...some 37% cheaper per model? Which also means you can bring more. There is really no contest here and while I agree that allarus have some nice stratagem support, it does not make up for the glaring difference in cost efficiency you get with the death wing knights compared to our terminators.

Deathshroud terminators are about 33% cheaper per model than our terminators and while they don't hit at S8 like our allarus, they have better Ap and more consistent damage, also more versatile damage because they have a reap profile on their weapons. While at the same time also being tougher than our terminators because remember, deathshroud are also T5 with a 2+ and a 4+invuln, while also being - 1 dmg.

Considering all this I don't think it's hard to argue that our terminators should be a tad cheaper or be significantly tougher for being so much more expensive. Getting one extra wound would help a great deal, especially against the extreme prevalence of dmg2 weapons nowadays.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/20 10:42:07


 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Allarus with axe's are only +1BS (which doesnt matter cause flamers), +1"mv, +1w, and slightly better shooting over Deathshroud, but dont have bodyguard and -1dmg. Yet they cost alot more.

Its ridiculous tbh.

Not that im advocating for much cheaper termies. I just want our termies to be worth the points they pay.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 11:39:27


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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I don't want to get into Theoryhammer here, as this is tactics, but I don't think you can radically change Custodes without first changing their tactics, which boils down to:

1. get in close
2. punch in face
3. repeat as needed

We don't really have any major gimmicks aside from those objectives. I think I'd rather see bikes get a price drop, than say, termies, but that's just me. I love bikes, and they can't earn their points back as is. I am also a big proponent of upping Footstodes movement speed to 8". We are at LEAST as fast as SoS, and are most likely far faster.

   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Eihnlazer wrote:Allarus with axe's are only +1BS (which doesnt matter cause flamers), +1"mv, +1w, and slightly better shooting over Deathshroud, but dont have bodyguard and -1dmg. Yet they cost alot more.

Its ridiculous tbh.

Not that im advocating for much cheaper termies. I just want our termies to be worth the points they pay.


I fully agree. Terminators as they are now should be cheaper, but I'd also rather see custodes units be worth their cost. Hence why I still believe the most basic buff that is needed is +1 wound and +1 attack on all infantry and bikes. That buff would entail a slight points increase across the board, except for terminators, because like we already discussed, they are currently way overcosted.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I don't want to get into Theoryhammer here, as this is tactics, but I don't think you can radically change Custodes without first changing their tactics, which boils down to:

1. get in close
2. punch in face
3. repeat as needed

We don't really have any major gimmicks aside from those objectives. I think I'd rather see bikes get a price drop, than say, termies, but that's just me. I love bikes, and they can't earn their points back as is. I am also a big proponent of upping Footstodes movement speed to 8". We are at LEAST as fast as SoS, and are most likely far faster.



That's just shifting the goalpost and is quite a reductive take on what the army does. If we're arguing this basic, death guard and dark angels also want to get close and punch face with their hammer units like death wing knights and deathshroud terminators, only that they can do it better for about a third cheaper.

+1 wound would also help bikes, as I agree that they are too much of an easily removable target now and seldomly earn their points back. Which says a lot about the game when a unit with a statline of T6, 2+, 4++ and 4 wounds is considered squishy. It's utterly ridiculous, but here we are.

Upping footstodes movement to 8" is too much. Harlequins move 8", we are so not harlequins.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 13:16:07


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter









Upping footstodes movement to 8" is too much. Harlequins move 8", we are so not harlequins.


We are and should be at LEAST as fast as SoS, if not faster. SoS are not genetically perfect humans. Also, we can represent the speed in other ways. Bonus d6 on the charge, drop the lowest, give it as an ability to all infantry only. Call it Speed of Perfection. 8" is excessive, but I'll settle for 7. They should be one of the fastest infantry in the game. I think you can also radically change up our play style through the use of aura debuffs. Just being in the presence of an 8' Custodian is enough to make most baseline humans piss themselves (Source: Plague War book 3), it could work with other factions as well. Inspiring presence could be an ability. -1 to BS of anything within 8" of a Custodes Character.

Point being, I am sorry I keep shifting the goal posts, but I don't think GW is radically going to shift the Meta with Custodes, but if I am wrong I will gladly eat crow. I don't see how this forum is continual wishlisting for new units/models, attack profiles, and cost reductions. I would gladly welcome an honest and straightforward guess as to what GW would give us in a new codex, given our current place in the Meta.

Do we fall closer to the GK treatment, where they are basically playable, but nothing new, or do we get the full re-build ala the DE? Honestly.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR


Hmmm I'd say that with the way the "wind is blowing" we are more likely to get a fairly substantial rebuild. If I were to guess it would be something to do with more SoS support and probably a few new SoS models to go along with it.

The other major "trend" seems to be in putting the most substantial buffs onto units that no one takes/wants... so for us there is the possibility of a good Land Raider! (Not gonna hold my breath on that though).
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




The LR is not our worst unit, it's very swingy, but has the potential to down almost anything with 4x LC shots that hit on 2s.

I don't ever see us getting a "Few new units". That would be unheard of. It's not like we are primaris.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The LR is not our worst unit, it's very swingy, but has the potential to down almost anything with 4x LC shots that hit on 2s.

I don't ever see us getting a "Few new units". That would be unheard of. It's not like we are primaris.
20/6 hits, or 10/3.
Against a T5-T8 target, 20/9 wounds.
If they have a 3+ armor, 100/54 or 50/27 failed saves.
That’s 6.5 damage on average.

You would expect to kill a 4++ Questoris Knight less than one in 200,000 times it shoots. Assuming no rerolls.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

May the emperor bless you, math nerds of 40k :-) You are truly doing his glorious work!

Seriously though: how salty will the space-marine players be if suddenly every Custodes list is rocking a GOOD land raider?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




So in lieu of shelling out 100+USD for a flying transport from FW, it's kinda our only bag for getting troops where they need to be.

Is it a DE Witch Cult? No, but as long as I have one of them, I don't see the harm in trotting it out. It gets my shield bois up the board and can pulp a target or two before it goes pop.

I'm not a competitive gamer, so I'm sorry for offending the Meta gods.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So in lieu of shelling out 100+USD for a flying transport from FW, it's kinda our only bag for getting troops where they need to be.

Is it a DE Witch Cult? No, but as long as I have one of them, I don't see the harm in trotting it out. It gets my shield bois up the board and can pulp a target or two before it goes pop.

I'm not a competitive gamer, so I'm sorry for offending the Meta gods.
Fezzik, you're not wrong for taking a Land Raider. In a casual setting, it's a fine unit-it's big, durable, and has... Okayish firepower, plus is a transport. However...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The LR is not our worst unit, it's very swingy, but has the potential to down almost anything with 4x LC shots that hit on 2s.

I don't ever see us getting a "Few new units". That would be unheard of. It's not like we are primaris.
This post is just not a good one.

Hell, targeting another Land Raider only gives it a 1.2% chance of killing it in one volley.
If you only need to bracket it (8 wounds)? Just over a quarter of the time. 26.2% of the time.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I get what you're saying, I just think 4 48inch S9 AP3 D6 isn't anything to ignore. Yeah, the math hammer will screw you, but I prefer to use them to get my shields into place, and then go hunting. If we are wishlisting, giving JUST our landraider, d3+3 damage LCs would make it viable overnight.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I think the lascannon itself needs looked at, and fixed in every army that can have one. Making them more like Admech las weapons is a good way to go. 3+D3 damage would make them adequate vehicle hunters.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Knights would start crying. So would our entire faction.

I'm actually kinda surprised there hasn't been a Primaris version of the LasCannon yet. There has been the Lasfusil, but that's a paltry excuse for a true LC.
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





They have the Lancer Laser destroyer? But honestly I miss the old days of standardized weaponry then a sprinkling of inbuilt special rules for units to give them an edge. Once upon a time you had like what? 5 or so versions of a bolt gun? Now some units can have that many boltgun variants!

Sorry, slight rant there.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Custodes vs Heavy Armor has never really been a major problem for us though, so it doesn't even get the rub. I'm much more interested in clearing hordes and Psyker defence. Bikes for hordes, but they are too squishy to last long. I think Eihnlaser's post about giving our infantry weapons multiple attack profiles would really help with that. Or was that Tiberias who first suggested it?
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801011.page


Interesting rumours from a "credible " source, just linking it here for your perusal

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




xerxeskingofking wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801011.page


Interesting rumours from a "credible " source, just linking it here for your perusal


Well, a feelnopain against mortal wounds is always great for us, especially when it's on a 4+.
I really hope it's not true that we lose our 4+ invuln. Losing the 3++ on the shields is...sowewhat expected, but not having a 4++ on our terminators or bikes would really suck unless we get some other buff in toughness instead. But maybe our Aegis of the Emperor just becomes a straight 4+ invuln instead of a 5+.

+1 wound I'm fiercely advocating for, so that is nice,if proven to be true.

Since most of our good durability now is tied to our stratagems like emperors auspice or arcane genetic alchemy, I hope GW doesn't overcorrect and make them useless by "toning them down"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 14:07:01


 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

The loss of the invuln buff would be an unmitigated disaster for this army. Its currently the only thing keeping the faction playable at the moment.

I hope and pray to the emperor that rumor isn't true.

For our *current* points for our models, we could fix the weapon profiles, add the wound, add a 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds and at that point our *current* points costs would be justified and we'd be in a much stronger position as an army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 15:22:10


Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




*Breaths deep*

So (IF IT's TRUE) this is basically what I called about 10 pages back. In order to move forward with this faction, we have to give up what's holding us back, IE our 4/3++ style game play. Also, we are upping our Miseracordias to d2, which is hot. And I also think I predicted the LT unit would act like a chaplain. We are losing our fundamental strengths and being given a whole lot of flexibility in the bargain, if this is true. I expect the Litanies to be a sort of replacement for Strats. Fight again, fight last, deny the witch, deny overwatch, deny Obsec.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR


If you are right, that seems like a lot for a chaplain type unit to accomplish. Don't get me wrong: I can see it working... but also, yeah, kinda a lot.

And yeah: D2 daggers is really frikkin hot.

I'm quite curious what the line: "New passives, sacred rites look alike" actually will mean in practice.

*groan* Are we about to become a very fiddly and complicated faction to play?
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well, it's still just a rumor, but I'm still of the opinion that losing our +1invuln ability could just mean that our Aegis of the Emperor gets changed to a flat 4++ instead of a 5++ now.

It would make a lot of sense actually. Our "emperors chosen" ability improves our invulns by +1 if we are battleforged. Which is a bit unnecessary, because we are always battleforged anyway. So it would be a lot less clunky to just change our Aegis of the Emperor ability to a 4++.
   
 
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