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Now that the Undead Legions army list has been out for a while, I thought I'd start a discussion on different tactics and units within the army. Most of what I will bring up will be based off my personal experience using the different units. For my qualifications, I've played Tomb Kings forever and a day, I've got a decent chunk of experience with Vampire Counts and I've been running the Undead Legions list since it came out. A word of disclaimer: I am probably a pretty serious Tomb Kings fan boy, and that may show through a little bit, but I will try and keep this on target for best/ ideal set-ups and tactics and leave my biases at the door! (sorry Ushabti!)

So on to the discussion!


Topic 1: Army Special Rules

These are definitely worth writing home about. The Undead Legions is probably the single best way to run your Tomb Kings or Vampire Counts nowadays. For Tomb Kings, the impact of not needing a hierophant at all is simply MASSIVE. Vampire Counts benefit also, but they were never really hamstrung the way that Tomb Kings were by the loss of our hierophant. No more crumbling if you loose your squishy Liche Priest or if your Vampire bites it (get it??!!). I can't get over how much better this makes the armies.

Another big boost for TK is the ability to march if within 12" of your general! Huzzah! Counts already had this, but now that counts can be magically motivated by the TK incantations, think about the possibility of march 8" + March 8" = 16" move turn one!!! Dem Bones is fast!

So with the special rules the Tomb Kings are the clear big beneficiaries, but the Counts get a boost too. Hooray for Nagash's return!!

Topic 2: Magic

Lore of Undeath:
The big hot thing with the release of the UL army list is the new lore of undeath. This is a big deal for two reasons: 1) you could theoretically raise an entire army for free and 2) EVERY wizard can take it. There are a couple of big problems with both of these reasons though. First, when going into a game wanting to raise an army, you MUST build your list around the concept, and I mean completely from the ground up designed to make it work. The spells in undeath are not easy casts, with their easiest summoning spell needing a 9+ to cast the basic version. Raising small units of warriors or archers is fun and all, but it won't be winning you many games. For the summoning list to work you really need to make sure you're bringing ways to boost the number of power dice you have each phase, or to bring either Arkhan or Nagash, who add points to the units they summon (more on this later). The casket of souls is my favorite way to get an extra D3 power dice per phase, and it's cheap PL 5 Light of Death gives you a great way to try and fish out some of your opponents dispel dice. Hierotitans are also good for boosting casting totals and have 2 low level bound spells that can help you fish a bit more. Lets not forget the Mortis Engine with the Blasphemous Tome upgrade giving out a +2 to cast. This is also (probably) better in close combat than the Hierotitan. Banshee scream ability, plus regeneration and a heaping of attacks. Or you could take a casket, Hierotitan AND a mortis engine for an extra D3 power dice and a +4 (on average) to cast. A lvl. 4 with a +8 ability to cast will get most things off without any problem. The downside with needing things like the casket and the hierotitan is that you may miss out on bringing more combat troops to the fight, but you should have some more dice/ casting ability per phase which will allow you to summon free units. Oh, and one more big, BIG thing about summoning: summoned units don't give up victory points. That means that your opponent gets absolutely NO return from killing anything you summon in front of them, so go ahead and summon away!

The next thing in magic to realize is that you can still use the lores you were already able to use! I know, right??!! You want to make sure that at least one of your casters is bringing spells that can help revive wounds. For deciding which lore to use, you need to figure out what kind of army you're taking. A naked lvl 2 liche priest is only 5 points more expensive than a naked lvl 2 necromancer, while a lvl 4 liche high priest tips the scales at 10 points more expensive than a lvl 4 master necromancer. The Tomb Kings lore attribute (regain D3+1 wounds when a spell effects the unit) will probably be better for healing big beasties like our super cool monster generals or any big monsters you may have, such as the Terrorgheist. The catch is that you still have to cast an 8+ spell (or a 7+ if you can get enchanted blades) in order for the attribute to take effect. For infantry, constructs and other things, Lore of Vampires may be better. The reason being is that invocation of Nehek allows you to gain D6+ caster's level on infantry, 1+casters level on other troop types, or only 1 wound on things with Vampric, Ethereal or Large Target. My advice? In large games, take one of each. One caster with Nehekhara and one with Vampires. This will give you a bit more flexibility when it comes time to cast.


More to come!!

Topic 3: Lords



Topic 4: Heroes



Topic 5: Core Choices



Topic 6: Special Choices



Topic 7: Rare Choices

Good start.

I'm long time TK player. So I am just now adding some VC to play. got first tourney (25% caps for lords and heroes still in ) in 3 weeks.

my old tk builds were built as range concept first, double skullapult, casket, death magic. Take my time and come to combat turn 4+

First few games I was too aggressive. I still should play defensive, just because I can march and then move with desert wind, doesn't mean I should. Now that I slowed down, I've gotten my groove back.

I am currently taking 3 wizards lvl 4 vamp, 2 nehek, 2 undeath. Going to really just spawn zombies, archers and crypt horrors. If I get the monster spell, then I'll spawn a hierotian first. Scenarios are fortitude and capturing terrain based for the event I am going to. If I can get a box of hexwraiths done before hand, great as well.

I have a Nagash event in in late January that I still got to sort out.

Yeah, the old Tomb Kings builds still work really well. With the vampires coming in, they just got a whole lot better.

Typically, our way of life was to take the skullapults, casket and large blocks of archers to whittle away at the enemy, then reform the archers when the got close and let combat res and our hitty things do the rest.

NOW, however, there is so much goodness to be had. Tomb Kings, I think, still have better support options than Vampire Counts, but the Counts combat units can hit so much harder than the TKs. So now instead of relying on our sphinxes, Tomb Guard or Chariots to do the damage, we can use Black Knights, hexwraiths, vargheists, terrorgheists and grave guard (I like them better than Tomb Guard....) to really munch up the enemy. Plus, enchanted blades makes black knights SO MUCH better.

Well, I never used the tomg guard, and I found chariots to be disappointing in anything bigger than a 4 pack with flaming banner. I am still using my 19 strong group of archers for bunker, and I still really like the Sphinxes, but running two 4 packs of crypt horrors, for fun and 3 solo spirit hosts for chaff.

Only thing I miss is Arkhan on foot.

From what I've seen, vampires didn't gain all that much from Tomb Kings.
The biggest gains are the most subtle.
You don't have to have a wizard as the general.
You don't have to have lore of vampire on your general.
Those two have opened up a ton of hidden options.
Strigoi on Terrorgheists (not the general)
Wight King (also Ld9) General.
Terrorgheist, 2x catapults, and casket as rares.
It lets you still run the double terror list, but keep your general safe in center mass, and add some impressive shooting to the mix as well.

On the other side, adding banshees to TK arches not only makes them more survivable in combat, it forces things like ogres to take fear tests, and lets you put out the hurt (banshee scream) to help grind down those tougher opponents that weather the hail of S3 bows.
Being able to swap liches for necromancers gives TK cheaper casters who heal more effectively, and lets you heal wounded characters via the lore attribute.


Considering End Time II, with the combining of chaos, beastmen and daemons fared far better than VC or TK.

I'll be interested to see with End Time III brings us.

I tend to think that while the chaos came out ahead better, it didn't for me. (run 90% Tz doc with Khannons and chrushers, move and blast, avoid combat)

I've been using a tomb prince as general for ages, better choice than a Wight king imo. MWBD is much better than killing blow. Great on a unit like Ghouls, grave guard, even skellies.

I think each side gained a ton.

Vampire Counts who use garden of more now have catapults and archers and caskets to make the enemy come to them, keeping that bonus regen and extra PD viable.

Vampire Counts can now have up to + 1billion to cast their spells when mixing in the Heirotitan.

(4 + Mortis Engine d3 + Heirotitan d3 + Master of the dead d3!)

Graveguard + Tomb Prince + Barrow Banner is a unit swinging at Str 6 hitting everything but WS5 or greater on a 2+ / Add a necrotect for Hatred or a named Necrotect for frenzy!

Black Coach + Casket of Souls



TK's got something solid to go with their great support -

Black Knights - Armor Saves in a TK List!

Forbidden Lore for access to Lore of Metal, which is really good for a Tomb-Star / Chariots / Necropolis Knights

Danse Macabre for their Necrolith Colossus -

Marching for their constructs and fliers. (Vultures are way better.)

Something to counts-as your beautiful but sucky Ushabti. (Ushabti models using Crypt Horror models)

--------------------

I don't know which I like more, the Terrorgheist or a Necrosphinx now that it can fly for real.

I think Undead Legions benefits the most from 1 Lore of Light wizard and 1 wizard of your choice, unless running Nahash. Then Nagash + Light works in my opinion.

Mr Godswildcard,
Nagash p18
and I quote:

"Lastly, units with this special rule (UNDEAD) cannot make march moves unless they are within 12" of the army General. Note, however this range is not increased to 18" if the General is mounted on a Large Target"

unquote.

What does that rule quote have to do with anything?

Edit: Nevermind. My apologies, I found what you were correcting.

D'OH! Thanks for pointing that out Huey! Apparently, I can't read. Let that be a lesson boys and girls. Don't go to the University of Louisville.....

Fixed that. Hope to have at least some of the lords done today. Anyone feel like giving us a run down on different lores of magic? I think that may be helpful.

Edit: Fixed the error, added the Mortis Engine to the list of spell buffers. Work up on Nagash and Arkhan coming soon....

For me, as a VC player, I'd perhaps be looking to add a few of TK's neat tricks to my army, such as the Casket, or sticking a Tomb King and Rhamotep in a unit of Grave Guard for WS6 Grave Guard that have Frenzy and Hatred

Ramhotep is not available for UL. which is ok, a regular necrotect can have better protection.

Ah, yes, I missed that. No Frenzy then, but Hatred is nothing to be sniffed at.

It's also good that a combined army can have decent Core units (as the TK Core is far better than the VC core)

 The Shadow wrote:
Ah, yes, I missed that. No Frenzy then, but Hatred is nothing to be sniffed at.

It's also good that a combined army can have decent Core units (as the TK Core is far better than the VC core)

Well that is to be debated. The horse archers are excellent, chariots are ok, but can't deal in a protracted fight. Foot archers are perfect for a wizard bunker. The Ghouls while lacking muso/std with a prince and necrotect could be some serious filth. Maybe a forbidden lore vamp with beasts to seal the deal?

 Acardia wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Ah, yes, I missed that. No Frenzy then, but Hatred is nothing to be sniffed at.

It's also good that a combined army can have decent Core units (as the TK Core is far better than the VC core)

Well that is to be debated. The horse archers are excellent, chariots are ok, but can't deal in a protracted fight. Foot archers are perfect for a wizard bunker. The Ghouls while lacking muso/std with a prince and necrotect could be some serious filth. Maybe a forbidden lore vamp with beasts to seal the deal?

Ooh, that's not a bad idea... I hadn't considered boosting the combat potential of Ghouls...

Still, I'm tempted to uproot my normal VC army's core in place of a unit of two of Skeleton Archers (fast cav ftw) and a unit of Chariots, which I think will have a much better impact (pun intended) overall. It's worth a try, I guess, though perhaps not worth the extra monetary cost.

Yeah give chariots a shot. I've had ok success with a unit of 4 with flaming banner, but I've tried a unit with a prince or king and it just gets beat.

 Acardia wrote:
Yeah give chariots a shot. I've had ok success with a unit of 4 with flaming banner, but I've tried a unit with a prince or king and it just gets beat.

Ok, that's useful to know, not to stick too many eggs in one basket. I'd have thought the frontage of a unit of 4 would be too large though? You need to get into BtB to get Impact Hits, and it's a big loss if you miss out on one set of impact hits.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Acardia wrote:
Yeah give chariots a shot. I've had ok success with a unit of 4 with flaming banner, but I've tried a unit with a prince or king and it just gets beat.

Ok, that's useful to know, not to stick too many eggs in one basket. I'd have thought the frontage of a unit of 4 would be too large though? You need to get into BtB to get Impact Hits, and it's a big loss if you miss out on one set of impact hits.

Agreed, the larger frontage can be an issue against units that are less that 100mm wide, but chances are those are small chaffy 1 model units. since you are corner to corner a 5 wide elf unit will still take all 4 chariots worth of impact hits.

 Acardia wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Acardia wrote:
Yeah give chariots a shot. I've had ok success with a unit of 4 with flaming banner, but I've tried a unit with a prince or king and it just gets beat.

Ok, that's useful to know, not to stick too many eggs in one basket. I'd have thought the frontage of a unit of 4 would be too large though? You need to get into BtB to get Impact Hits, and it's a big loss if you miss out on one set of impact hits.

Agreed, the larger frontage can be an issue against units that are less that 100mm wide, but chances are those are small chaffy 1 model units. since you are corner to corner a 5 wide elf unit will still take all 4 chariots worth of impact hits.

Oh, that's good. I've over estimated the size of a chariot base, it would seem. Four a unit it is then

Black coach gets a hidden buff out of all this with UL With casket of souls.

TK gives a VC unit Entombed Beneath the Sands special rule with Banner of the hidden Dead (unless UL can't take special items from TK and vc army books). Not sure if this is useful but could be funny with some Zombie gates so the enemy has to fight through 46-50 zombies or go around it or something.

tombking/Tomb prince in unit of graveguard/ghouls

Staff of damnation from VC can help out TK units with an extra attack (looking at you Necropolis Knights and Khemrian Warsphinx and skeleton Chariots)


Not sure of the usefulness of any of those but figured it was worth things to point out I thought where neat.


Edit: oopsie on the banner of hidden dead. You give it to a TK unit and use the special ability on a VC unit to give it Entombed beneath the sands. Tk and VC items can't go on each other. Just wanted to clear the first thing up

Hierotitan, casket, mortis engine, black periapt, master of the black arts.

I own the magic phase & thanks to banking dice, I probably own yours as well.

I get 2+d3+wizard level to lore of vampies. Banking up to 2 dice per turn & rerolling my winds of magic.

Also the tomb prince in grave guard. Aura of dark majesty + doom & darkness + Casket & screams.

Alright guys,I neither play Vampire Counts,or Tomb Kings. And I understand very little about them, but I've decided to start an Undead Legions army. Which is at the very least a daunting prospect, if not terrifying!

And tips on basic list building, what units I should pick up, etc. I have nothing bought yet, and I want to get a solid list idea put together before wasting money on units I'll never use.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Skeleton bowmen would be a good place to start. You cannot go wrong with a unit or two of them.

If you plan to go reasonably magic heavy then a casket and Hierotitan might be a good idea.

Other than that you really need to make a decision as to if you are going to use lore of vamps to bolster zombie units, if you are going MC heavy and nehek lore to heal them up, elite unit w/ tomb prince to bolster it, lore of undeath to summon entirely new units, or hero heavy with a solid core of skeletons.

Units that are helpful to any build are 1-3 small units of skeleton archers, a unit or two of dogs or skeleton horse archers, and either a liche or vampire caster model. Small zombie units can also be useful to most builds as chaff.

I personally really like nagash's rules and model but you really need to talk to your meta as to whether he is going to be comped (ie if anyone will play against him).

Another option I have been mulling over, with the combined lists, and the ability to march (but not flee unfortunately!) is a cavalry army.
Black Knights (2+ save and KB for 26 pts each!)
Blood Knights
Skeleton Horsemen
Skeleton Horse Archers
Skeleton Chariots...
then there's the TK signature spell for extra movement...
AND (VC) Vanhel's Danse Macabre!
Food for thought.

I think the units that is going to be the most common for core are the Skeleton Archers and Horse Archers. The horse archers are great chaff and war machine hunters, however they deploy as scouts so not a useful wizard bunker for a mobile army.

Regular archers are going to be in everyone of my lists.

I think a speed theme could work as well, you also have necropolis knights and some other speedy chaff like spirit hosts, hex wraits, tomb scorpions, but gotta remember that chariots can't march, so may hold you back a bit.

 ansacs wrote:
Skeleton bowmen would be a good place to start. You cannot go wrong with a unit or two of them.

If you plan to go reasonably magic heavy then a casket and Hierotitan might be a good idea.

Other than that you really need to make a decision as to if you are going to use lore of vamps to bolster zombie units, if you are going MC heavy and nehek lore to heal them up, elite unit w/ tomb prince to bolster it, lore of undeath to summon entirely new units, or hero heavy with a solid core of skeletons.

Units that are helpful to any build are 1-3 small units of skeleton archers, a unit or two of dogs or skeleton horse archers, and either a liche or vampire caster model. Small zombie units can also be useful to most builds as chaff.

I personally really like nagash's rules and model but you really need to talk to your meta as to whether he is going to be comped (ie if anyone will play against him).

I already have Nagash, and I know for bigger games I'll be able to get use out of him. But he won't ever be able to be the mainstay leader of army.

I do like the look of the Mortarchs though, I'll be picking up one or two of them even if they aren't great on the table? If they are then even better.

After that, I haven't really had much of a look into anything in detail. I was thinkning of just picking up a Vampires battalion and one of the Nagash bundles (since these actually have discounts!) And see if that's a good start?

Edit: Ok,so let's say I wanted to build a reasonably competitive army with Mannfred at the helm, how would I go about that

I think Skeletal Horsemen will be a great bunker for some Red Fury vampires.

For a quarter of the cost of Black Knights, you still get 4+ armor saves and the cav movement to get them into murder quickly.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I think Skeletal Horsemen will be a great bunker for some Red Fury vampires.

For a quarter of the cost of Black Knights, you still get 4+ armor saves and the cav movement to get them into murder quickly.

And it's core! Problem is that they are only WS2 and will die a lot. I think if you build this around a lvl 4 of light, with either speed or pha's to assist if needed, it would be super awesome.

WS2 sucks, especially since characters with MWBD can't take horsies, but there's always WS/Str/T modifiers to even the odds.

And honestly, unless you are fighting something WS5 or higher, there's no difference between WS2 and WS4.

Sure skeleton horsemen are cheaper.
They also lack 2+ armor and T4. Killing blow and lances is kind of good too. So is the magic banner.

Do you want 10 black knights, or 20 skeleton horsemen?
I'm going with the knight myself.
T3 4+ armor dies so much faster to shooting than T4 2+ armor.

Also keep in mind that Master of the Dark arts is a lot more viable. I'll be running at least 2 beast mages in my mount vamp armies. T5 black knights is beastly.