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Before 4th edition confused the heck out of us with escalation and the 'Scout' USR, A single unit of 8 pathfinders, with an equal number of seekers, was consider pretty much Standard-Operating-Procedure. As we've seen in YMTC and the Codex itself, the 4th ed. rules for 'finders continue to be a mess, due mostly to that gawdforsaken devilfish. Furthermore, we have more fast attack choices than before. A min. squad of 'finders is 145 pts (including 'fish with decoy), not including the cost of seeker missiles. So, the following questions emerge:

• Is this still a useful expenditure of points, or are you better off with a couple of markerlights and marker drones, and a couple of pirhannas with seekers on 'em?
• Are rail rifles even more worthless now with the advent of the sniper drone team (granted, a HS choice, but still)?
• Are seekers even really worthwhile in anything but an alpha strike or mechanized Tau list, where you need those 'free' shots due to lack of other heavy weapons?

Definately.

Its the cheapest way to get markerlights, and markerlights are now good. I have a team of eight, and regret giving away my second team now. It only costs 96pts and a full team will deal on average four markerlight hits to a target. This yields two whole teams hitting on 2+, nasty if one of the teams has six plasma rifle shots backed up by six missile pod shots, or fifteen burst cannon shots with drone firepower on the side. Etc, etc.

Pathfinders cant split their firepower, but they can put a seal of death on a single enemy unit, as the fluff intended. Most armies have one or two very nasty squads that must die. Pathfinders ensure that they do.

As for the mandatory 'wasted' Devilfish. Its just a cheap light tank with reasonable firepower and a special ability that helps deepstrike. Consider it an entirely seperate unit (non scioring) and think of Pathfinders as a Heavy Support choice you pay for with a Fast Attack slot.

Thanks Orlanth. I see your points about markerlights et al. Just can't agree on the 'fish as a 'seperate unit'. It's still 80 points (85 w/decoy) I have to spend that I could use elsewhere...

So what's the most cost-effective package for 'finders now? Minimum 6-8 + Fish w/decoy, plus equal number of seekers spread throughout the vehicles (2 on 'fish, a couple on Piranha, etc.)? That's around 217-241 points (including cost of seekers). Does that sound right? (I'm assuming Rail Rifles are still just as useless as they were in 3rd ed. in this unit?)

Thing about Pathfinders now is that for every marker light on an enemy unit, you can increase another unit's BS shooting at that marked unit by +1, up to 5 bs (Pretty much meaning the marked target is toast). So, seekers are good but its also good to keep that in mind. (Also, it may be cheaper to buy a skyray than the 2-3 piranhas with seekers).

Posted By GeneralIrecar on 04/22/2006 9:58 PM
Thing about Pathfinders now is that for every marker light on an enemy unit, you can increase another unit's BS shooting at that marked unit by +1, up to 5 bs (Pretty much meaning the marked target is toast). So, seekers are good but its also good to keep that in mind. (Also, it may be cheaper to buy a skyray than the 2-3 piranhas with seekers).

Unless I was going to get the piranhas anyway

I hear ya on the seekers, though. I guess I was figuring that 6 of 'em would be nice for a little 'alpha strike' in the first round, or to save in case of big nasties I couldn't get to another way (though with ASS and rail 'heads, that seems less and less likely), and use the markerlights the rest of the game to pinpoint other units for termination. 

Would you think it's worth going less heavy on the seekers? Like, 4 instead? (I'm thrilled with that, by the way; 20 more points to spend elsewhere).   

They are NOW worth it!
Seriously, the marker lights are so much better now, and a well positioned pathfinder team will make for murderous barrage. Now that the devilfihs can be given a SMS, it can be tooled to be more useful too.

If you go with ASS/Broadsides or Railheads, having less seekers might be better (So your markerlights can spend more time marking targets for your rail guns).

I'm trying to maximize the amount of seekers I have with my two railheads and skyray so I have enough AT/Anti-space marine firepower available (To complement my Crisis suits).

Posted By syr8766 on 04/22/2006 5:03 PM
Thanks Orlanth.

Your welcome.

Posted By syr8766 on 04/22/2006 5:03 PM
So what's the most cost-effective package for 'finders now?

I would go for a full team of eight, always. Simply because of the minimum 'tarrif' of the 80+pts it costs for the accompanying light AFV. That cost is hard to justify for a team of four, but with a team of eiught its more reasonable. I would also give the team a Shas'ui as Ld8 is essential for rallying and so you can attempt target priority tests yourself.

As for the number of markerlights, you can't have too many. There is no overkill with markerlights more shots means more chances. A full team yields an average of four hits and you can easily spend that many. If you do get lucky and get more shots in than you need you can apply the effects for lsser values like stripping cover saves or modifying pinning.

Pathfinders are important enough (and priority targets) I would be inclined to give the shas'ui a bonding knife - markerlights are heavy rated and cant be fired if the unit has to fall back. Also add two gun drones to boost the team size to ten. The drones wont get to shoot, that doesnt matter. Remve them as casualties first (and you WILL be getting shot at). This will cost 25pts but should keep them in the fight. If facing an assault army this extra expenditure is unnessary but seriously needed if facing a shooty army. In any event take a full team of eight and the shas'ui team leader.

I used Pathfinders for the first 5 games or so with the new codex and found that while Markerlights are good, Pathfinders aren't. The simple reason is that they die so easily. Sure you can hide them and only deploy out of the 'Fish when you need them. But don't forget they cannot mark after disembarking, which means they have to spend 2 turns at least out in the open just waiting for the Heavy Bolters to spot them. And if you spend 3 turns out of 6 hiding then they aren't shooting and are simply a waste of points.

After one game my opponents had realised how deadly ML have become and went to lengths to make sure my PFs didn't survive the first round. And belive me, that isn't hard. Whirlwinds, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Assault Cannon, Frag all kill PFs with ease.

IMO the only way to field lots of MLs in safety is with a Stealth team. By Stealth I mean either Sniper Drones or XV25. Of those two my favourite is the XV25 team as they can field more MLs and are way more mobile (I play Mech), but the Sniper team is also very good. My current XV25 ML team looks like this:
-3 XV25. 2 w/ 2 ML drones each. Team Leader w/ ML, TA, TL, Bonding. 245pts.
The Stealth armour insures that they never get shot, except by indirect fire, and even then it scatters very far with the new codex. It can target 2 different units with ease and depending on what the up-coming FAQ says it can move in the assault phase as well. This makes it way more mobile than PFs, and if the enemy comes within 18" can put some serious hurt on them. Of course deploying last is not to be sniffed at.

Its a pity about the loss of the Pathfinder's Devilfish, as its Deep Strike re-roll is very useful, but I'd trade it in for a unit that doesn't die.

Mephet'ran, why are you keping your Pathfinder in your 'fish. They need to be deployed in your firebase, preferably with a good cover save. Bond them and keep the team big.

I have seen stealth markerlight teams before and wasnt impressed. You have undercosted the unit considerably, its 90pts per stealthsuit. So 290pts for a team of three with team leader, markerlight and bonding knife. Eight bonded Pathfinders with Shas'ui is 111pts, 131pts /w two gun drones and 96pts for a naked team. Even after you add the cost of the 'Fish you are saving 100pts or therabouts and have one more markerlight.

Pathfinders need cover saves, and are targets for enemy long ranged heavy weapons, but are still just infantry. There are lots of dangerous targets for heavy weapons firepower, and most of it is more expensive and valuable than Pathfinders. If your Pathfinders are being assault cannoned just be thankful your crisis suits are not being shot at with same. Use your 36" range to stay away from bolters and your opponent will have to dedicate heavy weapons against you. If one squad of Pathfinders gets the full attention of multiple vehicles or better yet squad heavy weapons while the squad rank and file stands uselessly out of range they are doing their job. If they make some 5+/4+ cover saves and draw out this process all the better. If they take drones to draw it out further and are bonded so they might rally and need to be shot at until the team leader falls (hopefully that last Tau left standing) so much the better. In such a case your Pathfinders may absorb FAR more fire than they cost, and take much more punishment than needed to break one of your (more costly) Fire Warrior lines. Thus giving you an edge to exploit later in a battle of attrition.

Where did you get 290pts from ? I said 245pts. Which is abot the same as a PF squad (7'la, 'ui with bonding. DF w/ SMS, MT, TA, DL =231pts). Sure you don't have as many MLs, but with a Stealth squad you get to shoot every turn, for the whole game. PFs can't, because they die.

If you start with yout PFs in cover, facing the enemy they won't survive 2 turns. And the thing is, they aren't even diluting the incoming firepower, because all weapons aimed at them are weapons that normally couldn't hurt me (My FW are in DF until they are needed or I have min units so it doesn't matter and XV suits JSJ).

Then you add the mobility of Stealth in comparison to PFs and the fact that if the ML drones die you still are left with a highly effective Stealth unit with a 3+ save.

I don't know about you, but I take ML in my list so that I can use them throughout the game, not just in the first turn, or whats left of them if I go second.

For me, the preference boils down to the fact that I'd rather have the additional skimmer chassis. Sure, DF aren't scoring, but they make pretty effective gunships now with SMS/TA.

And the risk to them isn't as bad as you're making it out to be, Meph. If there's a unit of Heavy Bolter devs on the table, you better believe that I'm going to be placing my pathfinders out of range or out of view of them. If they're not in the same firelane, then that means the devs have to move to get to me if they want to take the pathfinders out. That's a turn (at least) that they're not firing, and fast attack places after heavy support, so I've got a very good chance of controlling who sees who in that case. With the exception of the Whirlies or deep striking units(both of which will threaten stealths just as easily,) you can control how well your pathfinders survive mainly by deploying them well. And in the open? No one in their right mind puts them anywhere out of cover.

I'm not saying that ML stealths aren't effective. On the contrary, there's definite benefits to ML's with a stealth field. But I think a blanket statement that "pathfinders suck" isn't really very accurate at all. The fact of the matter is that they are still the most efficient way to get ML's in a Tau list. It's up to the player to keep them alive from there.

Ezz

Oh, I didn't mean to say that PFs suck, far from it. If it came over that way I'm sorry, I mean simply that for me and the way I play ML Stealth are better.

The question was if Pathfinders are worth it or not, and in my opinion they are, but Stealth are a better choice. Unless of course you're playing an extremely skimmer heavy army and need to put as many vehicles in your list as possible to dilute incoming fire, then of course PFs are preferable.

PFs have their strengths, it is simply my opinion that the strengths of the Ml Stealth team out weigh those of the Pathfinders. There will of course always be situations where one particular strength is required and so tips the scales.

Posted By Mephet'ran on 04/24/2006 8:08 AM
Where did you get 290pts from ? I said 245pts. Which is abot the same as a PF squad (7'la, 'ui with bonding. DF w/ SMS, MT, TA, DL =231pts).

Thats only five markerlights, rather than seven, you might as well give every suit two marker drones. In any case your expensive unit is bait for fast assault or deepstrike suicide troops, most of which cost a fraction of the cost of the stealth team.

Furthermore its a non shooting elites slot, something you cant really afford. All in all you are sacrificing way too much firepower for too little gain.

Posted By Mephet'ran on 04/24/2006 8:08 AM
Where did you get 290pts from ? I said 245pts. Which is abot the same as a PF squad (7'la, 'ui with bonding. DF w/ SMS, MT, TA, DL =231pts).

Thats only five markerlights, rather than seven, you might as well give every suit two marker drones. In any case your expensive unit is bait for fast assault or deepstrike suicide troops, most of which cost a fraction of the cost of the stealth team.

Furthermore its a non shooting elites slot, something you cant really afford. All in all you are sacrificing way too much firepower for too little gain.

Thats only five markerlights, rather than seven, you might as well give every suit two marker drones. In any case your expensive unit is bait for fast assault or deepstrike suicide troops, most of which cost a fraction of the cost of the stealth team.

And Pathfinders aren't as easily killed by such units ?

Furthermore its a non shooting elites slot, something you cant really afford. All in all you are sacrificing way too much firepower for too little gain.

The loss of the firepower hasn't bothered me yet, its regained by having ML support throughout the game.
Sure in really competative lists no one takes ML Stealth, but no one take PFs either.

Posted By Mephet'ran on 04/24/2006 12:57 PM
And Pathfinders aren't as easily killed by such units ?

Of course they are but a suicide assault unit doesnt really normally go for a cheap target. Marker stealth teams are just not cost effective.

I honestly can't see how people do not take them. With the advent of escalation (and thanks to Adepticon, such things as Reverse Escalation ;-), they are just a great unit. They always start on the board, assist deepstrikers, can do alpha strike and have the ability to use "Marked for Death" tokens... honestly what more do you want?!

Ok, seriously. They are simply the ceapest way o get markerlights. Also you stick them behind other units (target priority) and leave them there with a good view of the battle. I often use them as a lure as well, loading them forward in set up, then reversing their move during the scout movement.

But then again, it's all about play style. If you don't like them, don't use them. I personally wouldn't come to a tournament battlefield without them with Tau.

This is probably going to sound really stupid, but since when did stealths start costing 90 points? I thought they were 30....

90pts for 3 stealths + 180pts for 6 marker drones. Although it would be a REALLY killer unit. My PF units come to 196 so are cheaper for two more shots but if you keep yourself 30"+ away you are really hard to hit.

They cost 90pts because if one dies to a stray basilisk template, mindwar or whatever that is the price, including two marker drones.

Stray Basilisk Template? C?mon Orlanth, 4th edition?s been for almost two years now?.

Why has nobody talked points yet? How much is a markerlight hit worth? What is its perfect shot and what is the points break on it? Why, when everything else in my army can JSJ or has a silly range, do I want to put points into a premium cost non-JSJ mid-range unit?

I know I haven?t looked at Tau Empire rules yet, but no-one really seems to have got the heart of the unit in this thread. There is no ?case? for them on here, just opinions, which isn't necessarily bad, but hardly likely to lead to anything decisive.

Oh... thanks. As a Tau player I feel ashamed...

I use one squad of pathfinders with markerlights, and a small 4 man squad with 3 rail rifles and one marker. One squad for marking the big targets, and the other for killing key heavy infantry/light vehicles. Seems to work pretty well.

Posted By torgoch on 04/25/2006 3:25 AM
Stray Basilisk Template? C?mon Orlanth, 4th edition?s been for almost two years now?.

Ok, point. Its just that a largeish unit in the Tau Firebase is likely to get pretty cvlose to other units. We are talking seven medium sized bases here. A pie plate can legally hit an adjacent unit and splash the stealthsuits. Not unreasonable as most firebases are fairly compact in order to benefit from mutually supporting LOS, screening et al.

I put up a pretty decent markerlight purchasing guide (I thought), but I don't think it was controversial enough for Dakka.  Anyways here's two good point comparisons for markerlights.

 

If you utilize full squads, small numbers of markerlight hits on a target can be absolutely amazing.  Exploring ways to 'sprinkle' markerlights through your army is definitely worthwhile.  Take the instance of a standard FoF attack:
12 Firewarriors rapidfiring
Unassisted vs. T4: 8 wounds  (24 * .5 * .66)
1 markerlight vs. T4: 11 (10.67) wounds  (24 * .66 * .66)
2 markerlight vs. T4: 13 (13.33) wounds  (24 * .83 * .66)

To match the effect of the 2 markerlight hits, you would have needed an additional 15 shots ((13 - 8) / .66 / .5) or 75 points worth of firewarriors.  By no coincidence 75 points is about what you can expect to pay for 2 markerlight hits (we'll get into it later), so where's the advantage?  Versatility.  Markerlights can essentially provide the same effect as adding more units to any given engagement. 

Second example for a 'Mugger' Suit configuration I'm becoming fond of (in conjunction with markers).
3 XV8's, each with Plasma, Fusion, Multitrack
Unassisted vs. T4: 3.8 (3.75) wounds  (9 * .5 * .833)
1 markerlight vs. T4: 5 wounds (9 * .666 * .833)
2 markerlight vs. T4: 6.3 (6.25) wounds (9 * .833 * .833)

With a difference of 2.5 between unassisted and 2 markerlights, you're looking at adding 4.5 more shot ((6.3-3.8) /  .833 / .666) or 1.5 suits at 62 points each.  91 points worth of shooting for 2 markerlight hits, neat.

There are less tangible uses as well, such as removing cover saves, firing the occasional seeker, and really loading up markerlight hits to reduce Ld vs. a non-fearless opponent.  Excess ML hits can always accomplish something.  I count these as icing on an already great tasting cake.