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http://blog.victoryforce.com/?p=3866

Looks like James is planning on retiring...

If I had the cash, I'd be all over that. They have some excellent figures in their range, and it would be fun to do something with it.

Have you ever wanted to own your own miniatures company?

But didn’t want to go through the hassle of finding sculptors and mold makers or had the time for them to create and produce over a 1000 greens and masters as well as the molds involved for your dream to come true.

Here is your chance.

The Victory Force Whole Kit and Caboodle Sale
Only: $300,000.00 USD

What is being offered:

Victory Force

Production molds

Various other molds

Figure Masters

Equipment to make molds and produce the miniatures

Various bins and tables

Rights to the name Victory Force

Rights to the VFM miniatures types in the sale.

Will have the option to take over the Internet site and the domain name.



Do with it what you will, hoard it and cast the figures for your own personal stash or sell the figures. It’s your choice, you are the Miniatures Mogul.

Hurry supplies are limited. (Because there is only one Victory Force available.)

If you are interested please submit and offer to purchase. Any offers must be submitted in writing along with a check for $5000.00 as an earnest deposit made out to JLB Studios LLC in order to even be considered.

Send to:

JLB Studios LLC

PO Box 23752

Shawnee Mission KS. 66223

I will not answer any questions by email or phone without the first contact by mail and earnest money.

I will not answer questions concerning past sales profits and expenses. This sale is not about Victory Force as a business, but sale of it as a product.

Anyone wanting to purchase VFM will need to decide their own approach to sales of the figures, if you decide to sell them. You have to decide what you would have spent to pay an artist to produce the numerous greens, as well as a mold maker to produce the molds required etc.



Buyer is responsible for pick up and delivery of everything purchased.

A submitted offer does not guarantee purchase. VFM has the right to refuse or accept any offer. Offers must be submitted by Dec 31st 2014. VFM has the right to cancel this sale at anytime. VFM has the right to accept an offer before the deadline. Sale is not final until contract is signed. This web posting or offer does not create a contract.

Weird, not too sure about the $5k deposit just to make an offer, is that normal?

Anyway VF is one of of those cool companies I never got around to ordering from but sometimes drooled over. Hope someone picks it up.

On a 300k transaction it doesn't seem too out of the ordinary.

only 300k for various bins, tables and molds and stuff?

what a steal, i'm off to get my 5k bank draft ready.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Weird, not too sure about the $5k deposit just to make an offer, is that normal?

It seems kind of odd, especially since they won't answer any questions until you make your $5k deposit. If I had that much money to invest I'd be concerned that they're hiding problems that would lower the expected sale value below $300k and trying to collect some easy money in $5k increments.

I will not answer questions concerning past sales profits and expenses. This sale is not about Victory Force as a business, but sale of it as a product.

I would personally have concerns buying when they aren't going to answer questions about sales, profits and expenses. You aren't really selling it as a product, unless they are going to break down the cost for the supplies, on hand stock, etc that you are buying. In which case you are buying at the cost for materials and equipment. Not to mention if you are buying a name and and rights to the miniatures, then you are buying it as a business.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Weird, not too sure about the $5k deposit just to make an offer, is that normal?

It seems kind of odd, especially since they won't answer any questions until you make your $5k deposit. If I had that much money to invest I'd be concerned that they're hiding problems that would lower the expected sale value below $300k and trying to collect some easy money in $5k increments.

It's like if you were trying to buy a property and the real estate agent told you that you have to give them 5k and make an offer before you're allowed to even look at the place. In the real world, it doesn't work like that... at all.

you look said property over top to bottom as many times as you want, ask questions, read into its history, get it appraised and get it inspected before you put a dime down on the place itself.

Yes, a teenager like myself would enjoy this...

Not sure if I understand correctly but he wants 300k for what-he-has, which for all I know has been a dead fish in the water (i.e. a profit-free enterprise) for like forever?

(We cannot really say since he does not want to talk about it...)

The 5k earnest money is not terribly unusual. If it's earnest money then it's basically a check he won't cash or will refund to you if your deal isn't accepted. It's a good way to make sure the buyers are serious and not just hobbyists with questions.

The shady part is the refusal to share sales information with you or engage in any discussion without the earnest money. The refusal to share "past sales profits and expenses" is the real red flag. He's basically telling you that you're buying a company that is not doing great.

Despite insisting that you're buying a product, anyone buying this is doing so as a business and to suggest otherwise is senseless.

The only counter to this would be that VFM doesn't want to have competitors make a bogus offer just to get business info.

So he wants £200,000 for what looks like a slightly 'meh' range of old school model lines+rights+production gear.

That's a fair chunk of change but I'm sure people might take him up on it. At least, that was what I thought until I read on and realised that he won't tell you if he actually sells anything anymore, and he demands you pay him £3,500 before he deigns to even talk to you about it.

Something tells me he won't be selling this baby any time soon.

kb305 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Weird, not too sure about the $5k deposit just to make an offer, is that normal?

It seems kind of odd, especially since they won't answer any questions until you make your $5k deposit. If I had that much money to invest I'd be concerned that they're hiding problems that would lower the expected sale value below $300k and trying to collect some easy money in $5k increments.

It's like if you were trying to buy a property and the real estate agent told you that you have to give them 5k and make an offer before you're allowed to even look at the place. In the real world, it doesn't work like that... at all.

you look said property over top to bottom as many times as you want, ask questions, read into its history, get it appraised and get it inspected before you put a dime down on the place itself.

Earnest money is actually pretty typical. Business want to keep the riff raff down to a minimum. Even with real estate deals, before you make an offer on the property - you usually pay earnest money to demonstrate that you are serious about it. In terms of looking around - you can do that on the website. See what products he has production rights to - figure out if it is worth your time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
The shady part is the refusal to share sales information with you or engage in any discussion without the earnest money. The refusal to share "past sales profits and expenses" is the real red flag. He's basically telling you that you're buying a company that is not doing great.

Despite insisting that you're buying a product, anyone buying this is doing so as a business and to suggest otherwise is senseless.

The only counter to this would be that VFM doesn't want to have competitors make a bogus offer just to get business info.

Actually a bit different in this case...

As far as he knows, the business is doing just fine. Unfortunately, he is not an accountant or a business man - so he isn't certain how well it is doing. More comes in than goes out, and the bills get paid with a bit left over. To give proper numbers, he would need to have someone figure out what those proper numbers are (beyond just what needs to be done for taxes...). That takes time, and digging through years worth of paperwork to figure out all the costs/profits on each. Plus, if you have those numbers and field those questions - then people will start looking to part it out (I want the zombies and germans - but not the convention goers) to try and get the price down.

Yeah the earnest money isn't the red flag, that is actually not to unusual. I do understand them not releasing information on how much to pay artists, sculptor and how to market the product which is normal. However it is unusual that he won't talk about previous sales information or give you a listing of pricing on stock, otherwise the number is just some arbitrary number.

Really the price is all about the existing model line, which without sales information is worthless. The equipment can be purchased for $30-100K depending on what route you go. You could get a digital sculptor and outsource or hire a couple on staff for a years salary to create a line cheaper than the extra $200k he wants. That leaves having to rely on the value of the rest of the products. The other products if sales were decent, could be worth it to have the masters but since it isn't discussed.

 treslibras wrote:
Not sure if I understand correctly but he wants 300k for what-he-has, which for all I know has been a dead fish in the water (i.e. a profit-free enterprise) for like forever?

(We cannot really say since he does not want to talk about it...)

Again, can't get into the particulars, but dead fish? Without getting into anything else - his zombies have been more profitable than about half the companies I have talked too regarding their whole business. Before Zombicide, before the Walking Dead caused it to explode - VFM was doing up their zombie horde deals (50 for $50 and what not). During those sales, he would often spend 12 hours a day for several weeks doing nothing but casting, bagging and shipping boxes of zombies (especially after The Walking Dead started up). Thousands of zombies.

However, it is a one man show - he is...I think early 60s now. Time to retire. Unfortunately, when you run your own business - you don't have much of a employer matched 401K to fall back on...so you figure out your number and that is the number you will need to retire with. Part through saving up while you are working, the other part by selling your business before you move to Florida...

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
In terms of looking around - you can do that on the website. See what products he has production rights to - figure out if it is worth your time.

But you can't look around properly because the website (as far as I can tell) doesn't include any information about things like what condition the molds are in, what exactly the "equipment to make molds and produce the miniatures" consists of, etc. Maybe the reason the owner is so eager to sell is that the molds are worn out, the masters have been stored carelessly and need a lot of repair work before they can be used to make new molds, and all you're really getting is the IP rights. The only way to get that information is to pay $5k for the privilege of talking to the owner, and if you discover that the stuff is in poor condition and not worth $300k you've lost your $5k deposit.

 Dark Severance wrote:
otherwise the number is just some arbitrary number.

See my comment about the number...it is an arbitrary one, sort of. Every small business owner has one.

Regarding what is of value - I would say the name alone carries significant value. Although it isn't much on this forum (or others that are more...young) the line is sculpted by a two time award winner for best miniatures from GAMA (back when he was with Easy Eights. It has a significant following from those who got into miniatures from the old Battleground WWII game. It is pretty catchy too - both the name and the URL (which for new companies can be a bit of a pain).

In terms of recreating what is there...not sure if the rest of your math quite adds up. Digital or otherwise - I think there were around 1500 individual masters. Even at rock bottom prices for having those sculpted - $300K is on the low side. Some figures are a bit dated. There are a lot of multi-part, multi-pose figures in the mix too - which generally come at a higher premium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
In terms of looking around - you can do that on the website. See what products he has production rights to - figure out if it is worth your time.

But you can't look around properly because the website (as far as I can tell) doesn't include any information about things like what condition the molds are in, what exactly the "equipment to make molds and produce the miniatures" consists of, etc. Maybe the reason the owner is so eager to sell is that the molds are worn out, the masters have been stored carelessly and need a lot of repair work before they can be used to make new molds, and all you're really getting is the IP rights. The only way to get that information is to pay $5k for the privilege of talking to the owner, and if you discover that the stuff is in poor condition and not worth $300k you've lost your $5k deposit.

Normally you get your earnest money back if you can not come to a deal.

The molds and the rest - well, it has been a few years since I have been out that direction, but they will likely be in various states of use (some new, some needing to be replaced soon). He also isn't terribly eager to sell (given the nature of his post - it sounds a bit more like...what the hell, lets see what happens with this...).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
See my comment about the number...it is an arbitrary one, sort of. Every small business owner has one.

Regarding what is of value - I would say the name alone carries significant value. Although it isn't much on this forum (or others that are more...young) the line is sculpted by a two time award winner for best miniatures from GAMA (back when he was with Easy Eights. It has a significant following from those who got into miniatures from the old Battleground WWII game. It is pretty catchy too - both the name and the URL (which for new companies can be a bit of a pain).

The arbitrary number makes sense. The issue is a person can't really determine value of the name or the products unless we're talking about sales history and profits. Since a buyer doesn't get information on that, there isn't a way to truly know what someone would be investing in.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I think there were around 1500 individual masters. Even at rock bottom prices for having those sculpted - $300K is on the low side. Some figures are a bit dated. There are a lot of multi-part, multi-pose figures in the mix too - which generally come at a higher premium.

That still doesn't really help without sales history to back it up. As you said some miniatures are dated, some of those masters have probably been retired and then we have scale creep with various product lines which can impact the available use of those masters. For at least part of that, sales history isn't really needed but that would require personal inspection of the masters and equipment which would normally be done anyways. There isn't necessarily a doubt of the prices for those masters but it is more so if there is an availability for them. Even taking $200K a person could get about 650 digital sculpts created given current commission prices, probably a bit more if you work on some exclusive contract cost with individuals or a salary. The disadvantage is then you are working with 1-2 sculptors so there is time involved, as opposed to contracting out to multiple. The advantage is that you can control the method you expand as someone may only need a couple hundred updated masters as opposed to the 1500 masters so you have room to maneuver. The masters are mostly not digital, not that it is a bad thing, but it does mean more work to get them updated vs the benefits of digital masters so there is that to weigh in.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Normally you get your earnest money back if you can not come to a deal

For those that want to understand what the deposit is for, earnest money is usually a deposit made to a seller showing the buyer's good faith in a transaction. Often used in real estate transactions, earnest money allows the buyer additional time when seeking financing. Earnest money is typically held jointly by the seller and buyer in a trust or escrow account.

An earnest money deposit shows the seller that a buyer is serious about purchasing a property. When the transaction is finalized, the funds are put toward the buyer's down payment. If the deal falls through, the buyer may not be able to reclaim the deposit. Typically, if the seller terminates the deal, the earnest money will be returned to the buyer. When the buyer is responsible for retracting the offer, the seller will usually be awarded the money. But if he won't talk to anyone without the $5 deposit, you may not be able to find out if the buyer cancels if he gets the deposit back or not. Usually in real estate you have the out of after the inspection, you can use that as an excuse or method to cancel without losing your earnest money. When dealing with a business, unless its agreed to have an appraisal done on the equipment, you may not have that out.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it isn't a good deal either. There are definite pros and cons even given the price. It is most likely more advantageous to an established seller like Hasslefree or Victoria or someone in that nature. Not to mention they are better at appraising stock, current market they've dealt with, etc. It however for is risky for "someone who wanted to start their own miniature business" as there are safer and cheaper methods to do so. The only reason that an established business is better suited for the buy-out, an average person isn't going to be able to obtain capital through traditional methods (be interesting to Kickstarter LOL!). Traditional loan methods aren't going to entertain the idea without sales history, profit margins to use to access the risk with, unless they have capital with an existing business or equity to be able to put up as security.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Earnest money is actually pretty typical. ..... Even with real estate deals, before you make an offer on the property - you usually pay earnest money to demonstrate that you are serious about it.

I don't know about in the US, but that's not the case at all in this country. Not making a deposit once you're ready to buy, but needing to put it down before making an appointment with an agent to walk through/inspect or ask questions of the vendor. The deposit is part of the offer process, not the discovery process.

I work in a franchise based business, it's pretty common at least when bidding for the major asset contracts.

Actually when we were sold by a well known US Corp to some venture capitalists 2 years ago there was also a fee just to start a conversation.

This is a small business, not anything on the scale that you're talking about.

And regardless, my reply was in response to Sean suggesting that it's normal in Real Estate, and that if you don't want to pay a deposit/"earnest money" you should just look at the website instead of expecting to be able to book an inspection - which may be the case in the US (but seems unlikely) but isn't a thing here.

 Eilif wrote:
The shady part is the refusal to share sales information with you or engage in any discussion without the earnest money. The refusal to share "past sales profits and expenses" is the real red flag. He's basically telling you that you're buying a company that is not doing great.

Despite insisting that you're buying a product, anyone buying this is doing so as a business and to suggest otherwise is senseless.

The only counter to this would be that VFM doesn't want to have competitors make a bogus offer just to get business info.

Actually a bit different in this case...

As far as he knows, the business is doing just fine. Unfortunately, he is not an accountant or a business man - so he isn't certain how well it is doing. More comes in than goes out, and the bills get paid with a bit left over. To give proper numbers, he would need to have someone figure out what those proper numbers are (beyond just what needs to be done for taxes...). That takes time, and digging through years worth of paperwork to figure out all the costs/profits on each. Plus, if you have those numbers and field those questions - then people will start looking to part it out (I want the zombies and germans - but not the convention goers) to try and get the price down.

I realize you seem to want to stand up for your buddy, and that's cool, but this doesn't exactly inspire any confidence. Also, I think it's just a touch disingenuous. I find it hard to believe he doesn't even have approximate numbers for how much he puts into the business and how much he gets out.

He does his taxes, yes? There'll be enough in his filing to give at least a basic idea of the profitability of VFM.

Good discussion here but is the $5k refundable? I really am not sure from the announcement.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Good discussion here but is the $5k refundable? I really am not sure from the announcement.

You have to send him a $5k check to ask that question.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Have you ever wanted to own your own miniatures company?

But didn’t want to go through the hassle of finding sculptors and mold makers or had the time for them to create and produce over a 1000 greens and masters as well as the molds involved for your dream to come true.

Here is your chance.

The Victory Force Whole Kit and Caboodle Sale
Only: $300,000.00 USD

What is being offered:

Victory Force

Production molds

Various other molds

Figure Masters

Equipment to make molds and produce the miniatures

Various bins and tables

Rights to the name Victory Force

Rights to the VFM miniatures types in the sale.

Will have the option to take over the Internet site and the domain name.



Do with it what you will, hoard it and cast the figures for your own personal stash or sell the figures. It’s your choice, you are the Miniatures Mogul.

Hurry supplies are limited. (Because there is only one Victory Force available.)

If you are interested please submit and offer to purchase. Any offers must be submitted in writing along with a check for $5000.00 as an earnest deposit made out to JLB Studios LLC in order to even be considered.

Send to:

JLB Studios LLC

PO Box 23752

Shawnee Mission KS. 66223

I will not answer any questions by email or phone without the first contact by mail and earnest money.

I will not answer questions concerning past sales profits and expenses. This sale is not about Victory Force as a business, but sale of it as a product.

Anyone wanting to purchase VFM will need to decide their own approach to sales of the figures, if you decide to sell them. You have to decide what you would have spent to pay an artist to produce the numerous greens, as well as a mold maker to produce the molds required etc.



Buyer is responsible for pick up and delivery of everything purchased.

A submitted offer does not guarantee purchase. VFM has the right to refuse or accept any offer. Offers must be submitted by Dec 31st 2014. VFM has the right to cancel this sale at anytime. VFM has the right to accept an offer before the deadline. Sale is not final until contract is signed. This web posting or offer does not create a contract.

Weird, not too sure about the $5k deposit just to make an offer, is that normal?

Anyway VF is one of of those cool companies I never got around to ordering from but sometimes drooled over. Hope someone picks it up.

Yes, very standard. Almost every public notice of sale or auction for property in the united states requires a 5-10k deposit. It's so that you don't get people without two nickels to rub together to make a dime wasting your time. If you have 5-10 g's you can throw down for a deposit on something without sweating, for several months to see if you buy it or get your deposit back, you more than likely at least have a credit line where you could actually buy this.

What i will say is that having to send them the check is a bit odd. Usually at an auction you show up WITH a check, but it's not signed, and it's a cashiers check (so you definitely have the funds). You then rip your check up if you don't win the auction(s). This... the check would be worth nothing if you didn't sign it. This is being done stupidly. If he didn't want to appear sketchy, he should require a 5000 deposit (which is understandable) into an escrow account (details provided on request), which is only released from 3rd party escrow on execution of final contract documents.


THing is, i'm sure he's not trying to scam anyone, but gak, that scenario looks suspect. The second you sign a check, the "payable to" party has all legal right to that money unless you have a very clear contractual document stating that in the event that XYZ legal action doesn't happen (sale, service, etc) that you're depositing on, you get back the specifically stated amount. I see none of that here, and that alone would make me very cautious. If i were thinking investing in this, and let's be clear 300k is a big amount to most of us, but its peanuts in investment terms, i'd have my lawyer toothcomb the contract docs.

And the problem with that is that every hour the lawyer scrutinizes and makes line item requests for stipulation changes, the more you're pouring into this.


... sorry. Law / Police nerd in me coming out. I suppose it doesn't matter, as i'm not looking to invest at this level. Caveat Emptor i suppose.


What really makes me scratch my head is the "I will not answers any questions about sales and profits" ... i mean, i'm not an investor, but i was reading with curiousity, and then i saw that, and my brain went into "NOPE" mode even though i wasn't interested to begin with.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

kb305 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Weird, not too sure about the $5k deposit just to make an offer, is that normal?

It seems kind of odd, especially since they won't answer any questions until you make your $5k deposit. If I had that much money to invest I'd be concerned that they're hiding problems that would lower the expected sale value below $300k and trying to collect some easy money in $5k increments.

It's like if you were trying to buy a property and the real estate agent told you that you have to give them 5k and make an offer before you're allowed to even look at the place. In the real world, it doesn't work like that... at all.

you look said property over top to bottom as many times as you want, ask questions, read into its history, get it appraised and get it inspected before you put a dime down on the place itself.

... actually, it works exactly like that in the real world. This is how public lien auctions happen. You show up with a cashier's check made out to the lawyers office (for property's below 1 million in value, its typically 5-10 grand). This gets you the abilty to bid on the property.

You are thinking about residential, domicile buying, and sure, you're correct there (though honestly, not even 100% ... usually to finalize a purchase and sales agreement, a deposit is issued pending any terms of the final sale (home inspection, etc, results of that inspection) to "take the house off the market").

In for profit commercial property flipping, this is exactly how it works, all day every day. Open up your local newspaper or local news website and find the legal announcements section. You will see auction lists for properties calling for cashier check deposits on that legal notices page. I guarantee it. This is how property flipping works.

Also, most property auctions you don't even get to look inside, most of the time its sight unseen.


You're mixing up people emotionally buying a house to live in with how for profit property is bought. It's a common mistake if you don't work in the construction industry.

 Eilif wrote:


I realize you seem to want to stand up for your buddy, and that's cool, but this doesn't exactly inspire any confidence. Also, I think it's just a touch disingenuous. I find it hard to believe he doesn't even have approximate numbers for how much he puts into the business and how much he gets out.

He does his taxes, yes? There'll be enough in his filing to give at least a basic idea of the profitability of VFM.

Not really a buddy. Several years ago, I decided to get a better handle on the miniatures business. Rang up a dozen or so companies, asked if I could come take a look at the way they worked. He was one of them. Didn't want to just leave it hang here though since I was the one who posted the link. Knowing what I do know about his business and what he has, I would say the price is reasonable (definitely not a steal of a deal - but reasonable).

The issue of the deposit really seemed to get a lot of people twisted up, but again - having sold businesses before, that is pretty standard stuff. They also miss some details. Letter communication first. That is the first hurdle in todays age to weed out the riff raff. Doesn't take much effort to send an email, actually need to type something up, print it, find some envelopes and stamps, drop it in the mail... Once he gets the letter of intent, I am pretty sure he will respond in kind with more information as well as terms for the deposit to move forward. It isn't a solicitation to have people send him a bunch of signed checks for $5000 with their fingers crossed hoping it isn't a Nigerian Prince in exile.

He can answer approximate numbers fairly easily - but I know in the past when I have sold companies I have owned...it wasn't approximations that were in play, it was worse than an IRS audit (been through those too...not fun). Everything from quarterly breakdowns of P&L for the last 5 years to how much is spent on office supplies. Your average small business owner who is working everything by themselves doesn't even track those sorts of things, let alone know how to properly compile them.

Dark Severance wrote:an average person isn't going to be able to obtain capital through traditional methods (be interesting to Kickstarter LOL!).

\
The answer is clear, it's time for Dakka Dakka to become a miniature company.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The answer is clear, it's time for Dakka Dakka to become a miniature company.

Oddly... that sounds appealing in nature.

But seeing as Dakka is such a fractured and large community, it wouldn't work.

 BrookM wrote:
But seeing as Dakka is such a fractured and large community, it wouldn't work.

We'll just mail the molds around to each other, each investor getting them for a week