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Hey guys, been monitoring this forum lately. Seems like most of asks for help come from Ork players. I play Orks myself and... I have won 1 game out of... 10, maybe. Is it just me or are Orks really the weakest army now and you need to be mega lucky or mega skilled in order to win?

shyzo wrote:
Hey guys, been monitoring this forum lately. Seems like most of asks for help come from Ork players. I play Orks myself and... I have won 1 game out of... 10, maybe. Is it just me or are Orks really the weakest army now and you need to be mega lucky or mega skilled in order to win?

Hi,

I think it is a mix of many things.
First, it's an army with many players, and many new players go for orks.
Second, I think that the new codex has added a lot of synergies and changed quite a lot of stuff that we still are getting used to.
Third, I think that every codex entry is payable now, but it can be hard to find an all comers list in there.

My two cents, anyway. :-)

Edit: Spelling

I have done fine with Orks in casual games. I haven't been to any tournaments, but the impression I get is that the people who don't like the new codex are the people who learned to live with the inadequacies of the old one and adjusted their tactics accordingly. Some of the old builds (e.g. deff rolla spam, nob bikers) don't work quite as well as they used to, but at least now every unit in the codex is decent, whereas people didn't even bother with flash gitz or tankbustas before. I even do well with nobz, supposedly one of the weakest units. Some people also complain about the new mob rule, but I don't find it too crippling and sometimes losing a few boyz is worth it to keep them tarpitting that dreadnought.

This a battle report of an Ork player who did very well in a tournament http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623943.page

I'm not an ork player but personally I feel like they have the same problems as nids (before all of their new releases) which is they only have 1 or 2 competitive lists variants and anything else just falls short of tournament level.

Works are definitely competitive, they have the cheesiest HQ ever (Mega armoured lucky stick warboss)

 CrownAxe wrote:
This a battle report of an Ork player who did very well in a tournament http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623943.page

I'm not an ork player but personally I feel like they have the same problems as nids (before all of their new releases) which is they only have 1 or 2 competitive lists variants and anything else just falls short of tournament level.

Good post and good link. Couple of observations:

1) I noticed that this guy's list included big trakks, i.e. forgeworld models. Many would argue that this doesn't count, and that a really strict Codex list might lack that niche. Although, if the tournament allowed it, then I guess it's fair, and from what I've seen big trakks seem fairly balanced (probably more so than some of the "official" units in his opponent's lists).

2) This player made great use of mek gunz, one of our best units in the new codex. However, I noticed that he kitbashed/scratchbuilt his mek gunz. I have no problem with this (I field several kitbashed units myself), but some players do, and the official models are quite pricey due to the box including loads of extra bits you don't need, which might put some players off purchasing them despite how good they are in the game.

Your record is about what mine was under 6th edition.Thats what we get for playing an assault army in a shooting edition..

Now with 7th ive done a bit better but mainly due to running a Stompa list.I get accused of bringing cheese due to it but actually I only win about half the games I play as its still a very shooting oriented game.

So from what ive gathered over the last couple of years is that players are very happy to play against Orks and will talk all day about how fun they are to play,yet you never see them playing them and only hear stories about how much fun they used to have playing Orks.But when you start to throw down stuff that can be rather tough to deal with ..like a Stompa for instance,then the tone changes and you are all of a sudden playing cheese.How many Stompa lists have won tournaments in the past year???..would love to know that stats on that.

Anyhow all things considered,as far as competition goes Orks are mid table at best.

If you want to start playing tournaments and actually win a few games you will need to switch to a more competitive army..

Reading those batreps, it didn't seem like the big trakks made so much of a difference that someone can't just use trukks. As ork players, we have to be more worried about the how fast the delivery system will boost my boys, not how long it'll survive. I think he used them for rockets.

As for the big guns, while yes they're expensive; I don't see how that affects how competitive they are. Most new players jump right into tournaments from what I can guess, but start small and work up. It's like saying a Porsche isn't fast because most new car owners can't afford one

Stompas don't show up in many tournament lists, in my experience, because soooo many tournaments go with the "no Lords of War over 375pts"... which is a backdoor way of allowing Imperial Knights, but blowing off many of their counters... Go figure. :-p

I wish it wasn't the case though. Stompa is a deceptively good unit even at its point cost, and pairs well with an army already so able to field masses of cheap, awesome bodies. Any other army would feel ham-strung dumping that many points into one model... but the insane cost-efficiency of things like Boyz and Mek Guns, means he just ends up being an incredibly good part of a diverse list.

Plus, having one is the weirdest psychological distraction. People so focused on it, ignore BWs with Tankbustas, or MANZ missles coming their way. :-p

 OrkaMorka wrote:
Reading those batreps, it didn't seem like the big trakks made so much of a difference that someone can't just use trukks. As ork players, we have to be more worried about the how fast the delivery system will boost my boys, not how long it'll survive. I think he used them for rockets.

Most Ork players favour battlewagons over trukks for the exact opposite reason.

As for the big guns, while yes they're expensive; I don't see how that affects how competitive they are. Most new players jump right into tournaments from what I can guess, but start small and work up. It's like saying a Porsche isn't fast because most new car owners can't afford one

I didn't say they weren't competitive. However, model price is still relevant to competitiveness. If I can get a Ferrari which is just as fast as a Porsche for half the price then this is a factor to consider. And many players do.

 Krusha wrote:
model price is still relevant to competitiveness.

I'll have to disagree there. Model price has got nothing to do with competitiveness.

It might be more rare on the tabletop due to price, but that makes it no less effective.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Krusha wrote:
model price is still relevant to competitiveness.

I'll have to disagree there. Model price has got nothing to do with competitiveness.

It might be more rare on the tabletop due to price, but that makes it no less effective.

Also a effective unit/model that is not fielded often because of price might end up more useful on the grounds none of your opponents are prepared for it. That was the case with my Stompa.

grendel083 wrote:I'll have to disagree there. Model price has got nothing to do with competitiveness.

It might be more rare on the tabletop due to price, but that makes it no less effective.

Competitiveness is a question of cost effectiveness. But I guess it depends on how you define it.

I don't dispute the cost effectiveness of mek guns in terms of *points* efficiency in a world where real world money is no object and I don't have the option of purchasing a cheaper but equally effective alternative. If this is the sole criterion by which you judge competitiveness, then we are in agreement about mek guns.

To be clear, I only ever meant this as a minor point. It's just that I can see why someone might think that an army that relies on some particularly expensive models/models from supplements that require opponent's consent is somewhat lacking in comparison to others.

What i find works well with orks is target saturation. Put enough threats to overwhelm your opponent. Orks don't really need a death star unit, just lots of units.

A lot of tourny armies are super elite it's seems and small, built to deal with another tough small elite army.

Orks are not an easy army to get to work for a new player for sure. But they can really counter certain builds. I know grav spam armies hate green tide, all those grav guns wounding on 6, kills their effeffectiveness.

Play the mission, with enough units , armies are hard pressed to deal with that many scoring units.

I think orks are competitive, but depending on the meta you are in there are only a few competitive builds.

Orks have some very few things that are 'bad' arguably its just nobz, flash gitz, and walkers (outside of the dread mob supplement formation..)

Orks have many units that overlap in synergy that span different FoC that can fill the same role, so you can build some non cookie cutter lists that perform the same function as another ork list.

What I mean by the above is you can take deffkoptas or buggies and achieve the same results more or less.

You can build lists that are based on multiple large mobs with FnP from painboyz, or small mobs in trukks with eavy armor and essentially complete the same tasks.

The issues with orks in regards to competitiveness are the formations/detachments themselves.

The detachment special rules for orks do not give much of a bonus. The waaagh detachment gives you the chance to teleport, but as orks cannot teleport and assault it works best with shooty units only. As you can't pick which units get it, its not that great due to not being reliable. Additionally the detachment causes you to lose more models on average due to mob checks, few detachments have actual restrictions but orks do.

The ork horde detachment lets you get more hq and troops, but the benefit of stampede is not that reliable, it goes off 6/36 of the time if you need a 10+, or 1/6th of the time. Not reliable. If you have a boarding plank you can up this number greatly to about 40% of the time, but still not reliable.

The formations overall are good for what they are, but compared to other armies are somewhat lacklaster in variety. Almost all of the ork formations are based on a horde of something, there are no formations where you get just 1-3 units of something and they get some special bonus, because of this many of the ork formations cost as much as other army formations and require you to spam some units. Most other factions so far in 7th have seen various formations that lets them get 1-2 units that gets some good bonuses, or a HQ with 1 unit.

Such formations would benefit orks in a normal game of 7th (ie no limit on formations) and even with restricted formations would be nice as you could have some units with good bonuses and not have to invest a large chunk of points in a horde of spammed things.

armies with lower cost models are supposed to benefit from being able to access multiple formations/detachments so they can have more variety but orks do not really have access to this through formations.

part of the issue are also the tournament formats, ie competitive level play. Many of them are essentially stuck in 6.5 edition and are unwilling to adopt the game format of 7th where you can take multiple detachments/formations and additionally avoid the game scoring formats of 7th and stick to what the scoring format of 6th was.

This leads to games where KP denial and scoring FB are the main objective, and winning by the standards of 7th format is not possible without also achieving some third set of obejectives ontop of that.

ie you win by playing 6th edition in 7th edition, if you want to win by playing 7th edition you have to do more ontop of normally winning a 7th edition game, but the person playing 6th does not need to.

for codexes written in 7th edition, this becomes a problem.

for other codexes they just spam Knights / FMC and its not a problem.

I think it depends on what point level you are playing at to some extent. But generally the best strategy with orks has always been melee mob mixed with specialist squads who do the heavy lifting on actually winning.

Most lists are jack of all trades lists and aren't necissarly shooty enough to kill your guys fast enough or choppy enough to with stand your melee assault.

Most Ork players favour battlewagons over trukks for the exact opposite reason.

Fair enough. But considering weapon options, point cost, and overall how quick they blow apart on the table; I only take one, at most two depending on size of game, Battlewagons at any time. I think it's just the way I roll with my own I guess. The trukks keep pressure off the guys on foot for relatively cheap

I didn't say they weren't competitive. However, model price is still relevant to competitiveness. If I can get a Ferrari which is just as fast as a Porsche for half the price then this is a factor to consider. And many players do.

Ah, I pick up what you're putting down

Orks are competitive, as is every other army imo. The "top tier" armies may be easier to win with, but I think all the armies have synergies in them that can win GT's if you know how to play it.

blaktoof wrote:

The detachment special rules for orks do not give much of a bonus.

This is probably one of my larger gripes about the Ork codex. It was absolutely AWESOME that we got two books besides the codex with rules for extra detachments. There are LOTS of options in there.... and almost ALL of them are pretty useless. They're especially horrible when you look at some of the detachments that other codexes get. I'm happy we got a bunch of formations and such... but I just wish more than TWO of them were actually ever worth taking. It's sad.

Murrdox wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

The detachment special rules for orks do not give much of a bonus.

This is probably one of my larger gripes about the Ork codex. It was absolutely AWESOME that we got two books besides the codex with rules for extra detachments. There are LOTS of options in there.... and almost ALL of them are pretty useless. They're especially horrible when you look at some of the detachments that other codexes get. I'm happy we got a bunch of formations and such... but I just wish more than TWO of them were actually ever worth taking. It's sad.

I actually quite like:

Mogroks bossboys
Green Tide
Blitz brigade
er... the 3 units of fearless MANz one I forget the name of
Council of waaargh (if youre using a LOW)

Actually the stormboys mob one and the kommandos mob one aren't bad either, as you dont need to take huge full size squads.

Our formations aren't automatic "I win" buttons but they open up options and change how units work in a fight.... which is kinda the point, no?

No

Murrdox wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

The detachment special rules for orks do not give much of a bonus.

This is probably one of my larger gripes about the Ork codex. It was absolutely AWESOME that we got two books besides the codex with rules for extra detachments. There are LOTS of options in there.... and almost ALL of them are pretty useless. They're especially horrible when you look at some of the detachments that other codexes get. I'm happy we got a bunch of formations and such... but I just wish more than TWO of them were actually ever worth taking. It's sad.

Well, it won't win any awards, but getting "free slots" using things like Krumpa's Kan Krew can be pretty fun. Highly competitive? Probably not, but it IS another threat-vector, and it comes without eating up ultra competitive Heavy Support slots.

Nothing beats maxed out boys squads. The question is. Do you have 1000 bucks to spend on ork infantry?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing beats maxed out boys squads. The question is. Do you have 1000 bucks to spend on ork infantry?

Thing is... as a long time Ork player... you look up one day, and it somehow just happens. :-p

We didn't set out to buy a lot of Boyz, but friends would just give us Assault on Black Reach models they had, but didn't have use for... etc... and suddenly one day you realize you're painting your 100th+ Slugga Boy, etc...

In 40k any unit that appeared in a widely available starter-set, can be had for virtually nothing, after a while.

If orks dont bring traktor Kannons to tournaments, its going to end badly for them Im afraid.

that is one tip Ill give you. take 1 in each of your artillery units, maybe two. Having that is huge because airplanes make orks really unhappy. Sure they MIGHT be able to handle it through volume but the better bet is on dedicated anti-air, as that represents a big weakness for Orks against FMC circus's and other suck things.

I think traktor kannonz are pretty awesome, I am converting some up to run 2 tractor kannonz+ 3 normal kannonz.

With the way shooting works in 7th you can always opt to fire which weapons in the unit first, which would be the tractor kannonz, if they hit and immobilize/ground something your good and then fire the kannonz at it, if it was a FMC you can now hit it at normal BS.

if its an immobilized flier and its locked going forward 18" you can just move something to where the flyer has to move, and on its turn it can't be placed so its removed as a casualty...

blaktoof wrote:
I think traktor kannonz are pretty awesome, I am converting some up to run 2 tractor kannonz+ 3 normal kannonz.

With the way shooting works in 7th you can always opt to fire which weapons in the unit first, which would be the tractor kannonz, if they hit and immobilize/ground something your good and then fire the kannonz at it, if it was a FMC you can now hit it at normal BS.

if its an immobilized flier and its locked going forward 18" you can just move something to where the flyer has to move, and on its turn it can't be placed so its removed as a casualty...

pretty sure the grounding check is at the end of the phase. So kannons will have to snap fire at the flying MC. A flying vehicle checks immediately.