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Kevin Nash wrote:So I'm gathering here that they are only releasing half the codex this month? Without point costs or other information this is worthless to me from an army building standpoint.

So we have to wait yet another month to play with the new ruleset?

Of course, GW knows how to please...

I am just surprised how many people did not realize how integral the faith system were for SoBs. For non-Immolator Spam, Faith was vital to giving sisters options... It made the army unique.

Like BA Priests and Special rules, ATSKNF, Ork Mob rules, Synapse, DE PnP, and IG Orders, Faith was really really important to making sisters work. Without it, it makes Sisters like worse versions of Marines. That is depressing.

Unlike the special rules I listed, the new faith is NOT reliable. And it is much much much weaker. I am hoping I can see how some one can make this work.

The Decapitator wrote:It makes me laugh that every new Codex/Army book release, the forums go mental with people complaining about 'codex creep' and that this new army is more overpowered than the last one and that seemingly the world is coming to an end, GW are idiots and all the rest of if.

They release a 'seemingly' underpowered dex, and you're all doing exactly the same thing but in reverse! Now you hate that it's NOT as powerful as the last codex and that the world is still coming to an end, GW are still idiots etc etc.

Change the record, it's getting boring.

Is it so hard to grasp that we want something in between the two extremes? We don't want new armies to be weaker than mid-range 3rd edition codices, and we don't want new armies to be more powerful than high-end 5th edition codices.

People will bash you for not agreeing that "OMG THIS CODEX R AWESOME" (or that it will be) when they'll never actually play it themselves nor did they play its previous incarnations. Probably best to ignore them. They're just going to get condescending and rude otherwise.

Heck, even though I don't think the Tyranid codex is as bad as its players says it is (I understand why they complain though, what with how the rest of the fifth edition codices are, and its FAQ...), I don't actively go bashing them or suggesting that they want an OP codex...

Holy_doctrine wrote:So..any bets on how many Sisters are going to be slaughtered in their own fluff then?

Indeed. Ward likes slaughtering Sisters.

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Let's hope Matt Ward is doing some rules for them next month. We might get levels of ridiculous unseen.

I was under the impression that sisters never won anything in fluff either.

My guess is we'll get the same crap we've always had, rehashed to fit in a WD.

GBL wrote:I was under the impression that sisters never won anything in fluff either.

They do, but it's always against rebels, never against an army which has an actual codex. So basically, the Adversaries section of C:WH-- that's what they win against.

Ah well, I'm avoiding getting worked up as don't play 40k any more, really. Pity. The Sisters were the army that I liked playing, but my view tended to be a bit heretical to the established canon.

I viewed them (in the kind of irony that fits 40k quite well) as generally one of the more 'professional' military forces of the Imperium. Not as crazy-fanatic as the Space marines, better equipped than the Guard.

Plus they're something that makes sense with my view of the Imperium as a nasty stew of factions with 'ultimate authority.' If the Imperium needs to crush rogue Space Marines, Sisters are the ideal to lead the attack (albeit with massive losses) as they have a rivalry, are considered less corruptible than most Guard, and have weapons that at least aren't pitiful against Space Marines.

That's not really heretical; that's basically second edition fluff to a tee.

Admittedly, the flamey-boots from one image and the highly decorated armor are a little over the top, but most real-world militaries have some decorations and weird traditions, and aren't thousands of years old.

The non-scaling faith seems like an example of limited playtesting at best. It was a neat way to give them a lot of potential special rules without being overly broken. I think the Black Templar's Vows were much more exploitable.

However it is quite different to their showing in Ciaphas Cain.


Lets face it, GW fluff is anything you want it to be.


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Balance wrote:Admittedly, the flamey-boots from one image and the highly decorated armor are a little over the top, but most real-world militaries have some decorations and weird traditions, and aren't thousands of years old.

The non-scaling faith seems like an example of limited playtesting at best. It was a neat way to give them a lot of potential special rules without being overly broken. I think the Black Templar's Vows were much more exploitable.

I did hear a rumour early on (dont know where) that the WD codex hadnt been playtested at all.

Whether that means there is going to be something exploitable in there or if there is nothing in there at all has i guess been the focus of the last 16+ pages of debate.

GBL wrote:However it is quite different to their showing in Ciaphas Cain.

Cain didn't like fanatics, but even he never doubted their incredible combat prowess.

Course, his interpretations of the motivation of anyone he comes across is wrong a remarkable number of times...

Of course there is a viable build. You can minimize on infantry and max on transports/tanks/artillery. It's almost irrelevant what troops you have if you take this approach to army design in 5th edition.

Unless exorcists are now going to be allowed to make squadrons the most tanks the sisters can have is 3. They have 0 artillery pieces. How do you propose to fill in the rest of your points? FYI in the current C:WH those 3 exorcists would cost 450 points total with storm bolters and extra armour on them.

Just to add confusion to injury (we've already got insult): it seems that Sisters vehicles don't get searchlights as standard.

It sounds lame (because it is lame), but you just max on every slot's available tanks. For HQ, the command squad. Min sized celestians for elite, dominions for fast, etc. Of course you max on your 3 exorcists. The disadvantage compared to standard mech is range...but there are advantages to having twinlinked heavy flamers and mobile ap1 shots.

Just sad times if you face the Eldar Avatar.

Melissia wrote:Indeed. Ward likes slaughtering Sisters.

Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.

- Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
- A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
- Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
- Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
- The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
- Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.


So...

One curb-stomp win (Red Corsairs), one solid win by enemy decapitation (Ulthwe Eldar), one 'back and forth but ultimately victorious' win (Black Legion; St. Celestine is involved), one successful but costly raid to retrieve relics, one 'buy the non-combatants time to evacuate before getting overrun' battle (Tyranids), and Sanctuary 101.

Curiously, the Sanctuary 101 mention doesn't even include why it's such an important battle from a fluff perspective.

Eumerin wrote:Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.

- Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
- A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
- Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
- Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
- The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
- Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.


So...

One curb-stomp win (Red Corsairs), one solid win by enemy decapitation (Ulthwe Eldar), one 'back and forth but ultimately victorious' win (Black Legion; St. Celestine is involved), one successful but costly raid to retrieve relics, one 'buy the non-combatants time to evacuate before getting overrun' battle (Tyranids), and Sanctuary 101.

Curiously, the Sanctuary 101 mention doesn't even include why it's such an important battle from a fluff perspective.

Wow, sisters of battle actually won some battles. I'm shock.

scuddman wrote:It sounds lame (because it is lame), but you just max on every slot's available tanks.

We only have one tank, and one walker, both take up heavy support. The only vehicles we have outside of heavy support are transports.

This compared to Guard who gets vehicles in FA and HS, and Marines who get vehicles in Elites, FA, and HS.

I don't midn if Sisters are infantry-focused, but their infantry have to be widely varying for that to work as a codex design. They aren't, and it doesn't, because GW has yet to competently design a Sisters codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eumerin wrote: - Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
- A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
- Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
- The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.

Soruce?

Melissia wrote:Soruce?

WD. I picked up a copy at my FLGS today.

Ah, this month's WD. Thanks.

Does it still do the rulebook's stupid "durr, only three major orders" bullgak?

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

RAAGGGEE!!!!

Kroothawk wrote:Surprisingly, the small text previewing the 2nd part of the Codex next WD lists only Cruddace as the author.
Maybe we get the best of both worlds: Rules by Cruddace and background texts by Ward
Maybe they can reactivate Gary Morley for the sculpts

Here's to Cruddace to make the wargear and unit points cost super cheap and effective. We've seen him make squads dirt cheap in Nid and IG codices, invoking the horde or spam mentality. I want to drown my opponent with boobs, power armours, bolters, meltaguns, and Immolators! This is your chance to redeem your self Cruddace!

Melissia wrote:Ah, this month's WD. Thanks.

Does it still do the rulebook's stupid "durr, only three major orders" bullgak?

The background fluff mentions the creation of all six of the major orders. However, the fluff essentially stops after the creation of the last two (created in M38 well after the deaths of the respective Sisters that inspired them), so it's still possible for GW to slip in an idiotic "oh, and these three major orders were all destroyed subsequently" if they wanted to.

However, they don't actually state that, which is promising imo.

The fluff picks up again with the curb-stomping of the Red Corsairs on the timeline, which happens in 799.M41.


Also, keep in mind that the post-Thorian fluff - aside from the half-dozen battles mentioned in the timeline - is essentially a single column.


And yes, the writers are Ward and Cruddace. That was one of the first things I noticed...

SabrX wrote:This is your chance to redeem your self Cruddace!

No. There will be no redemption for this codex unless the second part repudiates the nerf to seraphim and celestians' initaitive value.

SabrX wrote:Here's to Cruddace to make the wargear and unit points cost super cheap and effective. We've seen him make squads dirt cheap in Nid and IG codices, invoking the horde or spam mentality.

I must be reading a different Tyranid Codex.

I have no interest in sisters(aside from actually playing against something other than SMs), but I am a bit annoyed the GW split the codex between two WD to get it. Really GW? I know you're scrapping the bottom of the bucket to get people to buy the stupid thing, but do we really have to wait another month?

Sorry for the repeat question (Dunno if its been asked yet), I heard there was a leak of the white dwarf pages, can anyone tell me if thats true or not?

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Really GW? I know you're scrapping the bottom of the bucket to get people to buy the stupid thing, but do we really have to wait another month?

This issue was heavily focused on Fantasy. In fact, aside from usual "look new stuff!" for a couple of new Finecast DE, the Sisters article was the only 40K content in the entire magazine. The rest of it included rules for the new VC monster (which uses the same kit as the VC zombie dragon), lots of SoM stuff (including a battle report with VC vs Empire backed up by Bloodthirsters(!)), and a multi-page article talking about how to assemble and paint the new Dark Elf black dragon model. And, of course, the obligatory half-dozen pages on LotR. They no doubt could have shaved a page here and there from various articles, but there's a lot of new Fantasy stuff that's just come out (or about to come out; the Garden of Morr looks like a nice terrain piece if you need a graveyard/mausoleum, though I've no idea how much they'll pick from your pocket for it) so the focus makes sense from their PoV.

Sorry for the repeat question (Dunno if its been asked yet), I heard there was a leak of the white dwarf pages, can anyone tell me if thats true or not?

Dunno about leaks, but some of us have been able to purchase it already. If you've got a question, ask.

But it still means we got essentially nothing. What was it, ten pages at most? Maybe another ten, if they push it hard?

Melissia wrote:But it still means we got essentially nothing. What was it, ten pages at most? Maybe another ten, if they push it hard?

14 pages in total. Four fluff, ten rules.

Note that I'm not saying I like the low page count. I'm merely pointing out that it's hardly a surprise given GW's release focus of late.

Also note that next month is also likely to be heavily Fantasy-focused. Ogre Kingdoms get mentioned prominently as being one of the focuses of next month's WD (due out August 27).

And Sisters will probably get, at most, another ten pages from it.