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MetalOxide wrote:
I think we can all agree on FHM being completely pointless and only make you look like a d-bag if you buy one. There's a time and a place, and it's at home for free on the internet.

...

I disagree

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Sculpts are a subjective, but the "don't fit into 40k" just needs to be laughed out the room.

But... their existence is devastating to my portrayal of women being sidelined in 40k! We need to marginalize them as much as possible in this thread!

I guess you're right. They haven't been mentioned in any of the New Codices and haven't had a rules... update... recently... oh... wait.

Even stepping away from the 40k aspect for a minute. If we zoom out and take in the bigger picture of "Modelling Hobby" it becomes even more of a non starter as i'm sure more model kits of gender-less Aeroplanes and Tanks are sold rather than figures.

This is such a niche problem, if it is even really a problem, that I don't know how it got to this many pages so quickly.

I don't think exaggerated proportions on female models or their state of undress is sexism. I'd imagine anybody who would have that perspective is probably heterosexual.

I say that because quite a few of the male models I see in this hobby have exaggerated muscles, bulging cod pieces, strong chins and are in a extremely "manly" pose.

The only models you see that don't really look like male models are either evil or undead or sick.

I'm sure if you were a gay male you'd say "WOW, they are really objectifying men with these models". Most of us aren't gay, so we don't think that.

Also, you should understand...table top gaming as well as computer games are an escape and time consumer for alot of males that for one reason or another aren't able to find female companionship currently. Alot of those guys are pretty revved up when it comes to female imagery, so they are more likely to actually notice how hot a SOB mini is...maybe gay hobbyists think Sigvald is super hot...I dunno.

Anyway, I think it's a non(made up) issue personally.

Late to the party here. To address the OP on the original question- My answer could go many ways but I am in a tired frame of mind and here's the short answer.

There may be a problem, and in fact there probably, even almost certainly is. But the feths I give > 0. I don't play for realism, obviously, I'm a 40k player. I don't play for the benefits with women. I play to have an army of Superhumans/ Fungal Gorillas/ Intergalactic Locusts/ Space Elves kill each other off. The amount of flying feths I give about sexism in a game where 1 in 10000 players are women, would not be enough to ever be notable.


The next time I have a conversation and this comes up IRL it will go like this.

"So what's your view on sexism in Wargaming?"
"I don't give a gak. "
"But is it not a problem, that these nerds are all playing with skimply dressed warrior women with swords and guns who worship a corpse with no independent thought, and are not contributing much to society?"
Edited for image content MT11

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
...Someone was mean to me so it's time to behave poorly? Yes I linked the article because it's what spurred the desire to have a discussion. Is the writer OTT? Yep, does she have a point? She certainly seems to think so, and just blowing it off like gamers always do the violent video games crowd seemed a poor idea in general. I promise I'll never think highly enough of the rest of Dakka that they'll have the ability to get past the specter of potential insult ever again....

It's funny how you point fingers about inflammatory language and casting aspirations on people but do the same thing yourself. I just said I like cheesecake, not as much as apple pie but it's a decent desert now and then nor has any one to my knowledge in this thread said the cheesecake needs to go away, that includes our female posters.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
...
4. Do we really want them to lose though? I'm not even talking about minis at this point, but over all as a society on the whole better there are people willing to call things out as potentially being harmful or wrong then just letting things ride as they are. The teenage girl who called out magazines targeted at her age group for excessive photoshop for example and got that changed. Are some of these folks a little OTT and do they ride the controversy train a little too much? It's possible, but I'd still rather have them then not.

You're fine, but it's worth noting that "Crusader" and "attempting to control" have strong connotations in English. Possibly more so for me more then others, but being spit on and called a "crusader pig" leaves an impression.

KalashnikovMarine, with all due respect (and I do mean that, as you are clearly well meaning and sincere here), the problem with this line of big picture, maybe Cohen-Moore went too far but she had good intentions thinking is it obscures what has really happened. Which is, and I'm using big type to make this crystal clear for the person skimming the thread;

Adam Poots did what everyone claims they want and she crapped all over him anyway.

KD:M is exactly what people in my "first group" classification, and what most of the posters in this thread, call for: he put the pin-ups, the cheesecake, on the side. The pin-ups are not part of the game, they don't have any rules, they are simply something extra that people can buy if they want.

It's also important to note that when Mrs. Cohen-Moore's gets called out on this, she quickly shifts her tune: it's never a good sign in an article that there is an "Update", where the author uses terms like " I ackowledge[sic] that was not a deft employment of language skill", and "newswriting is vastly different from opinion columns. I am not obligated to interview people". Also not a good sign when the update is longer then the original article. Note also that, despite being called on the carpet for not knowing what she was condemning, she doesn't back down. She remains firmly rooted in the camp that KD:M is irredeemably sexist and "disappointed" in the team behind it.

It's been mentioned "Are some of these folks a little OTT and do they ride the controversy train a little too much?" Let's be clear, that's not what happened here. Mrs. Cohen-Moore made what she considered to be a very, very serious accusation... based on nothing. Based on mistakes. She falsely accused Adam Poots and his collaborators, pinned the scarlet "S" on them... and then just walks away from it with "I am not obligated to interview people".

Let's be crystal clear: Adam is doing what everyone says they want, having the actual game pieces be precisely equivalent in gear and seriousness (within the limits of actually expressing identifiable gender), and putting the cheesecake on the side. For example;


You don't need the Rawhide Dame to play a female in Rawhide armor. You don't need one, period. If you want one, you can have one... but you have to pay extra. So in this discussion, it cannot be avoided that one side wants more options, and one side wants fewer options. Mrs. Cohen-Moore flat out says this: ""Equalizing" the images of sexual consumption just exploits men too. Exploitation isn't suddenly okay when we're doing it to two parties. It just means more sexism." So, in fact, this entire discussion was spawned by someone that "said the cheesecake needs to go away".

EDIT: Bugger it, not worth it, I'm not willing to put in the time to argue.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Now that's just sad. Go with that logic, tell us some other things women can't do. Balance a check book maybe? Any math related material really I mean there's men around for that so she shouldn't worry herself right?

Lets not get overly silly now. The physical disparity between men and women is a reason why some don't want female models in their armies, and IMO that's not sexism. It can be as simple as an aesthetic choice or a choice of how one perceives their own army.

They can't urinate standing without getting some on their legs. They can't get someone else pregnant. But to be honest, I can't urinate standing up without getting some on my leg, and I sure as hell can't balance a check book.

 Debbin wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Now that's just sad. Go with that logic, tell us some other things women can't do. Balance a check book maybe? Any math related material really I mean there's men around for that so she shouldn't worry herself right?

Lets not get overly silly now. The physical disparity between men and women is a reason why some don't want female models in their armies, and IMO that's not sexism. It can be as simple as an aesthetic choice or a choice of how one perceives their own army.

They can't urinate standing without getting some on their legs. They can't get someone else pregnant. But to be honest, I can't urinate standing up without getting some on my leg, and I sure as hell can't balance a check book.

They can't lift 200kg over their heads. I can't lift 200kg over my head either, but then I don't think there should be me-marines any more than I think there should be fem-marines

 Deadshot wrote:
The amount of flying feths I give about sexism in a game where 1 in 10000 players are women, would not be enough to ever be notable.

MAYBE we should start wondering why that is.

As for myself, I'm all for equality and heavily against sexism (you know, the one where "one gender is handled worse than the other", rather than the pseudo-sexism that says "women are threated worse than men"). Naturally most sexism goes against women which for me is a severe problem. But it's a problem of society as a whole and needs to be battled in the scale of society as a whole. To do that, naturally we need to start small.

When I joined a Death Watch group, all was good and fun until someone shot out a sexist remark which I won't elaborate here and my immediate reaction was very much "Dude, what the hell!?" to which our GM mentioned such behaviour is common to which I answered "Well that's disgusting." Long story short, it ended right and there and never came up again during any game since. Problem solved.

40k and Fastasy on a whole are design-wise very much against sexism (Matt Ward butchering Sororitas left and right is a wholly different matter) because we have men and women in full armour or equal amounts of no armour (see Dark Eldar) and there are about two units in a state of severe undress (Sister Repentia and Dark Elf Witch) and those two have clear reasons why (punishment and styled arrogance, respectively) so I see no problem there.

After reading a good chunk of this, and now unfortunately having to go to class, I agree that there is certainly a sexist problem in nerd culture as a whole, though to what degree it can be debated. personally I'd love to see models on the table that look like lt. Mira from the space marine game (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/mira3c.jpg/sr=1)

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Thinking about it. in certain cases women may even have an advantage.

No.

It's just fact of biology. While there are a small, small number of women who have abnormal body types that will make them comparable to men, as an average, no, there's really just no solid advantage to being female in a combat environment. There is so much more to combat than simply aiming a rifle and pulling a trigger. I know that some people like to pretend that there isn't, but it's not the case. The average woman cannot carry the same proportional load, and not the same actual load. It was of no surprise that the first two female volunteers for the School of Infantry for Marine officers did not complete the course and there have been no subsequent volunteers. One of them did not even pass the initial conditioning and strength test.

But that's neither here nor there and irrelevant to the discussion. On this topic, my advice is to not ask the questions you don't want the answers to, lol. Because I'll happily share more if you would like to contest this point. I'll agree that it really has no bearing with 40K or wargames where realism isn't typically the most important thing. Then again, there's a certain amount of irony for asking for "realistic" depictions of an unrealistic model. But I'll let that one go there.


The original article has a fair point. The problem with the fair point is that it ignores the basic facts of marketing. You produce products for a target market. The miniatures wargaming community is almost entirely male. Yeah, there's an imbalance of "sexy' male figures to "sexy" female figures. Why is this? Sexy male figures probably don't sell anywhere near as well. No demand, no production. One can rant and rave about the lack of equality, but there's really no such thing in the business world. Female protagonists in male dominated market segments are always going to be sexualized, for the most part. That's just the way it is. I think some of you still underestimate the value of sex appeal. It may be the Internet era of free and unlimited porn, but there's still going to be the demographic, especially in markets aimed at "nerds", that will purchase these kinds of "sexy" miniatures. If you don't believe me, look at the sheer numbers of them available. It seems like every 2nd Dark Eldar project log uses Hasselfree's harem girls, lol.

Ultimately, if the market would support the creation of more "reasonable" female models, they would exist. I'm not even saying that it's not possible. I'm just saying the state of the market, for now, proves that there is a market for the "sexy" females (and it really isn't that strong either. It's a niche market in a niche hobby).

If people want it to change, commission an artist to make you a range of "reasonable ladies" and then throw it up on Kickstarter. People will throw away money on just about anything these days. I mean, they managed to get $250K for a movie starring Lindsay Lohan and a male porn star. If that can get funded, your ladyfigures can too.

Ultimately, and I know this is an unpleasant thing to consider, but this really does boil down to "I want this, but it doesn't exist, and that makes me mad". This is an industry we're talking about. Not a person. Not an institution. Any product provided to the marketplace is not provided under any obligation. Which means every supplier is going only produce the products that they feel they have a reasonable chance of achieving an acceptable rate of return on. Nobody is "owed" anything. If it does not exist, it is because there is no perceived demand, or the perceived demand falls below the level of profitability that would occur from using the production assets to make something else. It's their capital to risk, not yours.

 derjager7 wrote:
After reading a good chunk of this, and now unfortunately having to go to class, I agree that there is certainly a sexist problem in nerd culture as a whole, though to what degree it can be debated. personally I'd love to see models on the table that look like lt. Mira from the space marine game (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/mira3c.jpg/sr=1)

She WAS quality was Mira.. gawd bless'er.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buzzsaws post made me actually go look at that.. Kingdom death thing, I have to say, its pretty ridiculous to me.

I don't understand being really into that kind of stuff personally.. why are all the birds bursting out of their tiny outfits?

I suppose its a matter of taste, but I prefer fighty chicks to look fighty (See Mira from SM) or perhaps a power armoured sister than..well.. a slightly overweight size 12 bird, literally bulging out of a tiny amount of cloth covering her abnormally sized arse.

But sexist? I suppose its not really.. if there is a market for flesh then it gets serviced, I wouldn't call strippers existence inherently sexist either, be they male or female, they just are what they are, a thing that exists because money can be made from it.

I just don't have any real interest in playing a game so ridiculous personally, but I don't think it should be banned or anything.

 mattyrm wrote:
She WAS quality was Mira.. gawd bless'er.

MattyRM is an actual Imperial Guardsman.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Thinking about it. in certain cases women may even have an advantage.

No.

Thank you for the lecture on biology and Marine Corps training standards, since I enforced those standards for a couple years I'm familiar with them. I was also aware of the two females who failed the Infantry Officer's course (O's don't go to SOI) Thankfully I was talking about a game where power armor, psychics and weapons with power fields seem to be the standard so I'm not too worried about anyone's present combat performance. It's also worth noting that Canada has female infantry on the officer and enlisted side who perform up to their standard. A good friend of mine is a senior officer with a Canadian infantry regiment and he informs me he'd happily put his life in the hands of any of his ladies as readily as any of his lads.

Otherwise I basically agree with you. Except where you put down "that's just the way it is" and shrug it off. Why? Blue is for boys, pink is for girls but as was covered earlier in the 1930s pink was a strong, manly color and blue was the perfect color for a little girl. Things change, as has been covered extensively now, KS and other sources of "start up" production and over all lowered costs make that change a lot easier in many respects, especially if you just focus in on the minis. 3D printing's still on the rise so eventually it'll just be a matter of a decent 3D artist who can work in CAD and press a "print" button. Doesn't mean the conversation isn't worth having.

 mattyrm wrote:

 derjager7 wrote:
After reading a good chunk of this, and now unfortunately having to go to class, I agree that there is certainly a sexist problem in nerd culture as a whole, though to what degree it can be debated. personally I'd love to see models on the table that look like lt. Mira from the space marine game (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/mira3c.jpg/sr=1)

She WAS quality was Mira.. gawd bless'er.

I'd just kill for IRL officers like that, not often you see a lieutenant who can run a whole freaking war on her own.

Someone brought up a grenade throwing thing, I haven't seen that DoD study, but in my term monitoring the Marine Corp's combat fitness test, in a large mixed gender unit I can say that males and females screwed up in the grenade toss a roughly equal amount percentage wise. (Yes we kept stats on that for the CO). The pull ups thing is also understandable. I'd be up set too if I had had a leg up on promotions for a significant amount of time and the playing field was being leveled. Equality goes both ways.

 Sigvatr wrote:
1) How would they fit in? SoB are ugly and underplayed. Furthermore, what is hte point of women in battle when you got huge space marines to fight? What could they bring to the battlefield? Sandwiches? (sorry.)

2) I don't know about the IG fluff, I only know that there's one female officer in the IG army. Do they still rely on normal reproduction? Are the genetically changed too in a lesser way?

3) What major female models are there?

4) I don't get it.

5) I just imagined a Chaos Warrior kneeling down in front of her, proposing. Jolly. Seriously though, what do you think would happen to women that survive a battle? Chaos Warriors...especially Marauders. Ya think they'll ask them out for a date? Let's just be real here. Have a look at what happened to women after pillaging a village back in the times. Or don't.

The thing is: there are very few people making angry posts / threads about how women are represented now and then and happily lunge at everyone who dares bringing some rationalism in. 99,5% of the players do not care about the issue. At all.

On the IG side, and marine, how would you notice the difference for most of the minis? Shaved genetic freak head in giant powered armor-male or female? Generic ground pounder in helmet and BDUs - male or female?

 Sigvatr wrote:
1) How would they fit in? SoB are ugly and underplayed. Furthermore, what is hte point of women in battle when you got huge space marines to fight? What could they bring to the battlefield? Sandwiches? (sorry.)

This should be pointed out that Space Marines in the fluff is that they are the Angels of Death, it is RARE for an average human to see a space marine, so why wouldn't they enlist females? Especially if you look at the fact that the entire population of Cadia is mobilized and a part of the army.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
1) How would they fit in? SoB are ugly and underplayed. Furthermore, what is hte point of women in battle when you got huge space marines to fight? What could they bring to the battlefield? Sandwiches? (sorry.)

This should be pointed out that Space Marines in the fluff is that they are the Angels of Death, it is RARE for an average human to see a space marine, so why wouldn't they enlist females? Especially if you look at the fact that the entire population of Cadia is mobilized and a part of the army.

The way I see it, a Space Marine chapter is only going to enlist the best of the best and then only the best of those will ever make it through to fully fledged Marine. So you might be able to find a woman who is better than your average man, but that's not what it takes to be a Marine, it takes a woman who is better than 99.99% of men, a much more difficult thing to find. Your equivalent woman to the 1 in 1000 man who has what it takes to be a Marine is going to be zero to none of the available women. Now you could argue in the far future women have evolved the same physical strengths as men... in which case they probably look the same as the men too.

You could also argue that strength doesn't matter in the far future with technology and all that, but that wouldn't fit in to the game world very well IMO because even among Space Marines you have dudes like this who are even stronger again and benefit from it...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440280a&prodId=prod1460181a

My bad, I meant "Why wouldn't they enlist female" to mean the imperial guard regiments.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
1) How would they fit in? SoB are ugly and underplayed. Furthermore, what is hte point of women in battle when you got huge space marines to fight? What could they bring to the battlefield? Sandwiches? (sorry.)

This should be pointed out that Space Marines in the fluff is that they are the Angels of Death, it is RARE for an average human to see a space marine, so why wouldn't they enlist females? Especially if you look at the fact that the entire population of Cadia is mobilized and a part of the army.

The way I see it, a Space Marine chapter is only going to enlist the best of the best and then only the best of those will ever make it through to fully fledged Marine. So you might be able to find a woman who is better than your average man, but that's not what it takes to be a Marine, it takes a woman who is better than 99.99% of men, a much more difficult thing to find. Your equivalent woman to the 1 in 1000 man who has what it takes to be a Marine is going to be zero to none of the available women. Now you could argue in the far future women have evolved the same physical strengths as men... in which case they probably look the same as the men too.

You could also argue that strength doesn't matter in the far future with technology and all that, but that wouldn't fit in to the game world very well IMO because even among Space Marines you have dudes like this who are even stronger again and benefit from it...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440280a&prodId=prod1460181a

Dude they are genetically modified down to the cellular level. Plus they are wearing powered armor. Their physical strength is irrelevant. Concepts of Human Males Stronger HURR! doesn't apply 40,000 year int he future.

Again, unless they have a beard, in battle armor you can't really tell the difference. Plus GW (and tiny minies in general) are 8 kinds of messed up proportionally. When everyone's wearing heavy armor and baggy clothing, Its kind of a moot point.

Greenstuff boobs + Space Marines = a lot of happy people who wanted properly armoured female minis...



Dr Thunder could make a killing if he sold female Space Marine conversion packs; there appears to be enough demand for properly armoured female minis, I think this might just solve the problem.

Yeah, I see those flying off the shelves...

 Frazzled wrote:


Dude they are genetically modified down to the cellular level. Plus they are wearing powered armor. Their physical strength is irrelevant. Concepts of Human Males Stronger HURR! doesn't apply 40,000 year int he future.

Again, unless they have a beard, in battle armor you can't really tell the difference. Plus GW (and tiny minies in general) are 8 kinds of messed up proportionally. When everyone's wearing heavy armor and baggy clothing, Its kind of a moot point.

I dont want to get into this debate, but on a point of order, i will say the following:

you dont need "strength" to become a space marine. the creation of a space marine requires male tissues and hormones though. *shrug*.

and just for the record (getting out of the game-iverse for a second, and beyond theory), men and women are wired completely differently - its actually quite an interesting read as to how far/differently physically, mentally and hormonally we actually are from each other- never mind our brain chemistry, thought patterns, and evolutionary quirks that each sex has gained that set them apart, and so on. its actually quite interesting. Men and women are not always "stand-ins" for each other, like different "skins" for computer game characters with the same stats underneath. the end result is that simply, men are from mars, and women are from venus. Its actually quite a fascinating topic to read about.

And if that's how (ie, requiring male tissues/hormones) the Emperor, the greatest human mind of all time concocted it, well, i cant see us doing much better.

 Frazzled wrote:
Dude they are genetically modified down to the cellular level. Plus they are wearing powered armor. Their physical strength is irrelevant.

Except their physical differences (strength, speed) are highlighted as differences. Obviously you can see it whatever way you want, it's your fantasy land, but I still see it as Marinification of a weakling = stronger weakling, Marinification of a tank = stronger tank. Then power armour augments strength, not over rides it completely thus making it irrelevant. At least that's how I've always seen it.

I dont get it in my opinion. What is wrong with loving the female form? I see this girls in games or models that I "Appreciate"
Does that mean im only going to go after girls that look like the representation? No, it does not. We as a society think that you can only have one and not both. You can either find their personality attractive or their body.
So people think that if you oogle over models that you must not be interested in the person beneath at all.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I dont get it in my opinion. What is wrong with loving the female form? I see this girls in games or models that I "Appreciate"
Does that mean im only going to go after girls that look like the representation? No, it does not. We as a society think that you can only have one and not both. You can either find their personality attractive or their body.
So people think that if you oogle over models that you must not be interested in the person beneath at all.

The 27mm of plastic underneath is what I find the hottest on a 28mm model.

At the end of the day my feeling is that, yes, we could use some more heroic female models perhaps (though they aren't non-existent, there could be more in certain armies).... though for me it comes more down to wanting certain models and those models not existing and it's a bit of a stretch to turn that in to being immoral and sexism.

People think female guardsmen would look like Mira from Space Marine... no they wouldn't. The Imperial Guard fight on many different planets, most likely harbouring harsh conditions; I somehow doubt your average man/woman could survive. I recon the average Guardsman/woman need the build of schwarzenegger to fight in the environments such as Tyranid infested worlds ect.

It appears that quite a few people on this thread wants to see a female with a normal build but in full military gear (sci-fi/fantasy) which is fair enough; it's a step up from chainmail bikinis. The problem is if the armour is the same as men's and they are helmeted there will not be any real difference at all unless you look at the shapes of the faces through a magnifying glass. To rectify the problem the armour could be a little more fitting to show the female form but then people will throw a hissy fit calling the miniature cheesecake just because the armour maybe more slender or give a hint that the mini has boobs.

In the end, guys and girls, it's a hobby full of make-believe worlds and little plastic/metal/resin/restic toys; a 7 foot tall bio-engineered superhuman who fights alens because a corpse guy on a throne told him so is just as silly as talking cheese with a waxed moustache and monocle. Also some of you people, stop taking the moral high-ground just because you like women in uniform rather than chainmail bikinis.

 MetalOxide wrote:
People think female guardsmen would look like Mira from Space Marine... no they wouldn't. The Imperial Guard fight on many different planets, most likely harbouring harsh conditions; I somehow doubt your average man/woman could survive. I recon the average Guardsman/woman need the build of schwarzenegger to fight in the environments such as Tyranid infested worlds ect.

Except that Mira was a Cadian, who's Imperial Guard regiments are under near constant attack by daemons. Unless you're running Codex: Whole Army of Rambos, I think your average guardswoman would fair just as well as your average guardsman...

KalashnikovMarine wrote:A good friend of mine is a senior officer with a Canadian infantry regiment and he informs me he'd happily put his life in the hands of any of his ladies as readily as any of his lads. .

Haha. Well, it's his life.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
People think female guardsmen would look like Mira from Space Marine... no they wouldn't. The Imperial Guard fight on many different planets, most likely harbouring harsh conditions; I somehow doubt your average man/woman could survive. I recon the average Guardsman/woman need the build of schwarzenegger to fight in the environments such as Tyranid infested worlds ect.

Except that Mira was a Cadian, who's Imperial Guard regiments are under near constant attack by daemons. Unless you're running Codex: Whole Army of Rambos, I think your average guardswoman would fair just as well as your average guardsman...

I wasn't disputing wether a Guardswoman would fair as well as a Gaurdsman. I was disputing the fact that a Guards woman would not look like Mira. A Guardswoman would be more butch, even if she was a Cadian. Also do you really think if Mira had the physique of the average woman she would really be able to fight of Daemons?