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What are the stats for the plasma weapon on the Inceptors?

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
What are the stats for the plasma weapon on the Inceptors?

They're range 18, assault D3 plasma guns. They have AP -3 of normal plasma guns, and not -4 the Hellblasters' incenerators get.

I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.

sossen wrote:
I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.

They just won't overcharge if they aren't near a character.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

sossen wrote:
I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.

They just won't overcharge if they aren't near a character.

Sure. But in that case it might be better to just take the assault bolter guys, as the plasma is apparently way more expensive (I'd like to know how much more expensive to assess this properly.)

sossen wrote:
I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.

Captain with a jump pack.

Personally though i don't think it's going to be worth it given d3 shots guns generally are overpriced and i would expect these too aswell

How are you guys thinking of running your Aggressors? I have to admit I was hoping for some heavy weapons however it looks like they are the anti-horde infantry solution.

I think I like them with Flame Fists inside the new Primaris Transport. Running them as either Salamanders for the flame shenanigans or Ultra Marines so they can fall back and unleash flaming hell as the -1 to hit means nothing.

Didn't catch the points cost in the review so not sure how viable they are points wise?

Aggressors are 43 points each, for either load-out, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

They do put out a lot of bolter fire, but i don't see them getting to double shoot that often since they either need to move into range, or get out of a transport. Of course you can also let the enemy get into range, but I can't imagine them not being a prime target if they are out in the open and a lot of common weapons 1 shot them. That being said they are probably the best thing to put into their transport, with hellblasters being the other contender.

The main other way i would see using them is with the raven-guard stratagem, getting them close enough to put some hurt on the enemy before dying, ideally with as much other alpha strike units as possible.

If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:

Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?

Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.

Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.

Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...

Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.

bort wrote:
If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:

Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?

Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.

Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.

Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...

Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.

One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.

Quick question: nothing is preventing Lias Issodon from using his Master of Ambush rule to infiltrate characters, right?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

bort wrote:
If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:

Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?

Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.

Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.

Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...

Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.

One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.

I've used a squad of regular Devastators with grav cannons in a pod to good effect. They have more firepower than the centurions and they're a lot cheaper. They are less survivable of course, but it's really the alpha strike you're after here (with a signum and a cherub used on the same Deastator to get 8 shots at +1 to hit, along with 12 at regular BS -1 for moving).

 Crimson wrote:
Quick question: nothing is preventing Lias Issodon from using his Master of Ambush rule to infiltrate characters, right?

As long as they are not prohibited by the rule (Terminators, Primaris, etc), I do not see why not.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.

Could someone confirm how many relics can be put on a single character please? I thought it was still capped at 1?

On another note - Lascannon+autocannon ven dread or 4 lascannon dev squad? Not sure on the current costs of a 4 lascannon FW dread, so, feel free to compare that too if you know the points!

 General Helstrom wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

bort wrote:
If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:

Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?

Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.

Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.

Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...

Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.

One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.

I've used a squad of regular Devastators with grav cannons in a pod to good effect. They have more firepower than the centurions and they're a lot cheaper. They are less survivable of course, but it's really the alpha strike you're after here (with a signum and a cherub used on the same Deastator to get 8 shots at +1 to hit, along with 12 at regular BS -1 for moving).

I have been running tac squads with a grav cannon and combi plasma to pretty good effect in my ultramarine lists. Even with the 4+ to hit when they move or disembark, i find the 4 shots to be worth it, and having a re-roll character also helps a ton.

Kdash wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.

Could someone confirm how many relics can be put on a single character please? I thought it was still capped at 1?

On another note - Lascannon+autocannon ven dread or 4 lascannon dev squad? Not sure on the current costs of a 4 lascannon FW dread, so, feel free to compare that too if you know the points!

It's 1 relic/character. Says so in the rules for the stratagem that lets you take extra relics.

A mortis dread costs 5 points more than a normal dread, before weapons. It's the cheapest quad lascannon vehicle I think, but quite a lot softer than a predator. Doesn't degrade though.

It could well be that the repulsor becomes the best lascannon mount. It's very tough, mobile and has potms. It transports people, so it does two jobs. Not sure until we see its cost.

I find the primaris release kind of frustrating in a way. It’s pretty limited. There’s no flyer and various other things seem to be missing, like bikes, jump packs and so on. Weapon options are bizarrely limited, so Hellblasters only get plasma guns of various kinds, sergeants can only have very limited options – or very often none at all. Where are the hellblasters with gatling cannons - which would look amazing?

Not letting characters have options is really rubbish. So a primaris captain can only have a normal power sword, so he’s stuck doing only 1 damage per hit with his 4-point weapon. I guess you’d only ever field one with the burning blade. It’s particularly odd that the gravis guy has to pay for a master-crafted sword he’ll rarely use (as he has his fist) while the primaris guy only gets leftovers. Loads of the relics aren't available to primaris guys, simply because they aren't able to take the base weapon that they replace.

All of this makes me feel like this is only half a release. I think GW will give us a bunch more primaris kits before too long. I certainly hope they do.

There’s also this slightly weird thing with chapter tactics, in that they quite often seem to benefit the “wrong” kinds of unit, thereby encouraging you to take units that don’t fit the stereotype for that chapter at all. For example you might expect raven guard to field a lot of sneaky reivers, but why would they? They can infiltrate anything they want, and the reivers are least likely to benefit from enemies getting -1 to hit at over 12” range, because they won’t be far away.

On the other hand, if those raven guard can infiltrate some aggressors, they’ll have a lot of fun. And just spamming a ton of intercessors seems a very solid option if the bad guys can’t shoot them. So a good raven guard army might be a ton of intercessors, with stuff like hellblasters and aggressors infiltrating using CPs.

Similarly, salamanders plasma gunners clearly benefit most from their CT. Aggressors look pretty cool for white scars, advancing and shooting things up, and they’ll enjoy being free to run away from one unit and charge another.

There are some CTs that work pretty much the same for everyone. The IF CT encourages shooting things with bolt rifles a lot, which is appropriate, and the IH one just works for everything. BTs being good at charging actually encourages you to charge stuff, which again makes sense.

Final moan. Why does GW think flamers are so good? An aggressor gets an average of about 6.33 hits at 18”. With flamers he gets averages 7 hits at 8”. I guess you can make the point that it’s very difficult to charge aggressors with flamers (especially if they are somehow stationary), but then they are already nasty in combat. Bolter ones are far more likely to get to stand still and fire twice. Flamer aggressors are pretty decent for ultramarines but otherwise don’t seem too great.

I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.

They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.

jcd386 wrote:
I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.

They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.

I totally forgot to look into wl traits

what did everyone else get?

 General Helstrom wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

bort wrote:
If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:

Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?

Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.

Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.

Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...

Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.

One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.

I've used a squad of regular Devastators with grav cannons in a pod to good effect. They have more firepower than the centurions and they're a lot cheaper. They are less survivable of course, but it's really the alpha strike you're after here (with a signum and a cherub used on the same Deastator to get 8 shots at +1 to hit, along with 12 at regular BS -1 for moving).

I'm planning on experimenting with this for my DA Greenwing as well, Grav Devs in a Pod to avoid the range issue hoping to put the hurt on something nasty. No idea how it will work.

 Desubot wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.

They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.

I totally forgot to look into wl traits

what did everyone else get?

Crimson Fists WL trait is basically Rampage except it triggers if he is within 6" of 10 enemy models. So Pedro Kantor does 5+d3 attacks if 10 or more models are near him. Kind of lame, actually. I would have preferred Iron Resolve (+1W and Ignore Wounds on 6).

 Desubot wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.

They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.

I totally forgot to look into wl traits

what did everyone else get?

Here’s a good summary. Pretty much everything apart from points values. You can also watch the review video in the rumour post. http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/07/space-marines-codex-leak/

Yeah IF are decent. Ignoring cover while using a weapon with any kind of AP starts to make infantry fall over very often. It works pretty well with just about any unit, though it’s a bit wasted on hellblasters. I’ve got this theory that fortifications might actually be quite good, and if I’m right then rerolling to wound them is no bad thing either.

There’s no way they are as tough as raven guard though. -1 to hit results in a 25-50% reduction in the damage you take at range. It makes people really not want to overcharge plasma, which is otherwise one of the best ways to remove primaris guys. And combined with deep strike, letting you deploy units where they aren’t in too much danger of return fire, it’s even better. The longer range of Primaris weapons also means the raven guard will be that much more likely to be able to deploy in cover and/or on objectives and still be in range to have an impact.

Thinking about new primaris releases, I wonder if they’ll bundle a few of them with the releases of the other marine codexes that are still to come. That’s probably how I’d do it. Or of course they could stick them in the chapter approved.

Thanks for clarifying that for me!

Starting to think a Deredeo might be worth it with the autocannon rather than the lascannon devs, as it'll only be 30+points more than how i was going to run the dev squad. Feels like the Deredeo's lascannon battery is expensively underwhelming with only 2 shots. Alternatively, the contemptor mortis can run 2 twin las for 30 points less than the deredeo, but then doesn't provide a 5++ bubble or hits supersonic flyers on 2's... Choices! Maybe i should be taking both and only 1 redemptor.... EDIT - wait, the relic contemptor can take the same 2 twin las, for less points than the mortis, whilst also getting more wounds and buffs?????

I'm with you on the Raven Guard tactics and units though. I will be side lining my beakie tact squads for intercessors, but i'll be taking Reivers. Reviers with the stratagem are going to allow a lot of hurt turn 1. Though i also agree, on the aggressors. I'll be showing the Salamanders how a proper chapter flames units to death first turn!

My original ideas for 8th before the codex and leaks came out, was jump packs, stormtalons and scouts/speeders... Since then, the only thing out of those i will probably take is a unit of Inceptors and Shrike, simply for re-rolls and the warlord trait whilst being able to deep-strike and re-roll his charge. I had reserved my dreadnought ideas for Iron Hands!

Mandragola wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.

They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.

I totally forgot to look into wl traits

what did everyone else get?

Here’s a good summary. Pretty much everything apart from points values. You can also watch the review video in the rumour post. http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/07/space-marines-codex-leak/

Yeah IF are decent. Ignoring cover while using a weapon with any kind of AP starts to make infantry fall over very often. It works pretty well with just about any unit, though it’s a bit wasted on hellblasters. I’ve got this theory that fortifications might actually be quite good, and if I’m right then rerolling to wound them is no bad thing either.

There’s no way they are as tough as raven guard though. -1 to hit results in a 25-50% reduction in the damage you take at range. It makes people really not want to overcharge plasma, which is otherwise one of the best ways to remove primaris guys. And combined with deep strike, letting you deploy units where they aren’t in too much danger of return fire, it’s even better. The longer range of Primaris weapons also means the raven guard will be that much more likely to be able to deploy in cover and/or on objectives and still be in range to have an impact.

Thinking about new primaris releases, I wonder if they’ll bundle a few of them with the releases of the other marine codexes that are still to come. That’s probably how I’d do it. Or of course they could stick them in the chapter approved.

They are tougher vs heavy bolters, assault cannons, auto cannons, and anything that is -1 armor since they still get a 2+ save. In my experience these are the weapons that kill them most effectively at range.

Those are pretty nice stratagems for the most part, but isn't the largest limiting factor going to be how hard it is for SM armies to fill a force org? Unless they added some marine specific ones in the codex and/or boosted troop options, it's hard for a nonUM marine list to go above 5-7 CPs. Presuming you want to keep ~3 rerolls for seize, game end, or that game changing roll, you don't have much left for the new ones, like RG deployments or crazy WS bike assaults.

I'm always tempted to buy like 300pts worth of AM to fill out an extra Imperium battalion or brigade, which I'm not keen on from a fluff and wallet perspective. Doesn't seem right to replace the supposed backbone of the marine army with IG conscripts. But when it gets me CPs to boost my marines and the objective camping bodies I want...Hmm.

I found it pretty easy to get to 8 CP in my SM lists. 7 at the minimum.

jcd386 wrote:
I found it pretty easy to get to 8 CP in my SM lists. 7 at the minimum.

At what points list. without using the under strength rule?

I guess you could do it with basically no special or heavy weapons.

Regarding the IF warlord trait: It's just too specific. It only impacts certain types of weapons, and only when they're in cover, and only if they're within 6" of the warlord. Compared to all the other options you can take in that WT spot, it's just too narrow.

Ignoring cover as part of their chapter tactics is okay, but situational given the limits to cover in 8th edition. All the rest of their rules (relic, stratagem, warlord trait, etc...) are just bad. Imperial Fists got the short end of the stick with the 8th codex in comparison to the other chapters.

 Desubot wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I found it pretty easy to get to 8 CP in my SM lists. 7 at the minimum.

At what points list. without using the under strength rule?

I guess you could do it with basically no special or heavy weapons.

I've found i can easily get 7 command points with a battalion and vanguard detachment at 2k points which includes a lot of big units.

I've also managed to get 10 cp using 2 battlions and a vanguard, though the troops in the 2nd battlion were 3 units of min scouts, with a lieutenant and techmarine in the hq slots. In the end i dropped this, as i felt it just wasn't worth it in terms of "on the table pressure".

Desubot wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I found it pretty easy to get to 8 CP in my SM lists. 7 at the minimum.

At what points list. without using the under strength rule?

I guess you could do it with basically no special or heavy weapons.

I've got a total of 7 in a 2k list and i have a land raider, remember you're getting 3 just from being battleforged

jcd386 wrote:Aggressors are 43 points each, for either load-out, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

They do put out a lot of bolter fire, but i don't see them getting to double shoot that often since they either need to move into range, or get out of a transport. Of course you can also let the enemy get into range, but I can't imagine them not being a prime target if they are out in the open and a lot of common weapons 1 shot them. That being said they are probably the best thing to put into their transport, with hellblasters being the other contender.

The main other way i would see using them is with the raven-guard stratagem, getting them close enough to put some hurt on the enemy before dying, ideally with as much other alpha strike units as possible.

I actually feel bad that my chapter is 'probably' a raven guard descendant, it's going to make flamer fist versions of those guys sort of silly

I'm also curious how you get so many CP's.

I'm having "issues" getting more than 6 CP, since it requires a minimum of 3 HQ's, and I find that I really don't want that many HQ's.

Heck, the only reason I take 2 HQ's is so that I can get a battalion detatchment.

I guess you can save some points by taking cheap HQ's such as Chaplains and Techmarines.