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Great write up, few questions
1.No Creed for extra command points?
2. 2 Neutron Ongars, did you ever feel the need for an icarus cannon array? Now that Eldar hemlocks might be a big thing, would you consider the Icarus more now?
3. Can Neutron Ongars still compete for space in a list with double fire Russes and Basilisks?
4. Are you allowed to just freely choose between Kurov's Aquila or the Cadia Relic at the beginning of any match at ITC? It seemed like you didn't stick to just one relic

great write up.
So whats the measurements for the Earthshakers then?

Also, Codex Craftworlds might not be that big of a problem since Craftworlds arent Ynnaeri. Its either or.

Loved the writeup. I feel like you were drunk or on a post-tournament rush when you wrote some of it.

"Earthshaker Batteries: Run more. Make more. Craft more. " I'd be careful with this sort of thing... FW are definitely being much slower on the updates than GW prime, but evidence suggests that these and Malefic Lords and stuff will get hit with the nerf bat. I guess if you are the Brandon Grant type who will win a tourney with a perfect list then be happy to ditch it and start again, then fine.

Wulfey wrote:
Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.

Good work. Nice write-up...

Now to go sell my effing army.

I was on the fence as it is, because while it was a labor of love building and painting, I can't stand getting steamrolled and honestly, with what I am seeing from Eldar and knowing IG do what we do better, what is the point?

This is an interesting development. Really enjoyed Wulfey's write-up, even the knee-jerk doom and gloom conclusions

The big question is, if conscript screens are so doomed as you say, what is the rest of the imperium going to use for screening? They're no better off than us.

My conclusion to this is essentially that GW doesnt want us screening. At all. The idea that an army would intentionally wrap it's heavy support in garbage to prevent it being charged only fits fluff-wise for very few armies. Most armies of the imperium would charge out to meet them head on. Ironically it fits for us perfectly, admech wouldnt even think twice about throwing cascades of bodies at any objective, we just dont really have the bodies or leadership support to do that. Anyway what i'm getting at is, and what i'm happy about, is the gravitating away from spam buffers. Because what that means is they want us to properly deal with assault units. Counter an assault with another assault, or shoot it before it gets to you. That is a far more epic and exciting scenario for our battles than ramming a bunch of spongey flesh into a wall of metal. Or vice versa.

The annoying thing about that is we only really have dragoons that fulfil that charge role effectively. Our one truly nasty melee unit is hampered by costly and/or inconvenient delivery mechanisms. If we could get priests to where we needed them, we'd be fine to counter assault units attempting to tie up our shooting. Though I guess if we held them back and wait for assault units to get to us and used staff priests and a truly singular purpose of being counter charge against our heavies then we dont really have to worry about their delivery. if only they had some way of moving a decent amount of distance to charge effectively.

Infiltrators might do this job pretty well, bit pricey though.

What we're still boned on is the psychic phase. C'est la vie. If we can handle assault and shooting i'm absolutely fine with not being able to handle psychic armies; If that becomes our main downfall, i'm ok with that. No army should have an answer for everything.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.

Good work. Nice write-up...

Now to go sell my effing army.

I was on the fence as it is, because while it was a labor of love building and painting, I can't stand getting steamrolled and honestly, with what I am seeing from Eldar and knowing IG do what we do better, what is the point?

what did I miss about Eldar that is so painful to us?

Iago40k wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.

Good work. Nice write-up...

Now to go sell my effing army.

I was on the fence as it is, because while it was a labor of love building and painting, I can't stand getting steamrolled and honestly, with what I am seeing from Eldar and knowing IG do what we do better, what is the point?

what did I miss about Eldar that is so painful to us?

Basically they're decent again now. Fire prisms can fire twice the same as leman russ and banshees can race across the field into combat. They have even better access to -2 to hit and everything they have is now fair. It's the best codex so far imo, in that it actually gave the army what it needed.

I'm pretty sure you can still use conscripts in units of 20 as screens, especially in Guillman lists, bring an inquistor and/or commisar make sure they are within Guillman reroll morale bubble, reroll the morale before the commisar's rule. Of course, the efficiency isn't as amazing as before since suddenly you are susceptible to morale casualties.

Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers

Vs t7 3+

Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn

This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough

gendoikari87 wrote:
Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers

Vs t7 3+

Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn

This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough

Do me a favour and run those numbers at absolute minimum dmg and maximum damage. People seem to ignore the fact that every unsaved wound from a neutron laser is 3 wounds min, all the others have a much greater variance.

Leman russ are also much easier to kill, despite their t8, which also means nothing to our neutron laser or even a regular lascannon. A russ also gets no save vs a neutron laser.

Seriously one of my neutron laser shots meant a leman russ couldn't even shoot me outside 12". Sure their potential damage is greater but they are rendered harmless or destroyed just as easy.

Octovol wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers

Vs t7 3+

Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn

This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough

Do me a favour and run those numbers at absolute minimum dmg and maximum damage. People seem to ignore the fact that every unsaved wound from a neutron laser is 3 wounds min, all the others have a much greater variance.

Leman russ are also much easier to kill, despite their t8, which also means nothing to our neutron laser or even a regular lascannon. A russ also gets no save vs a neutron laser.

Seriously one of my neutron laser shots meant a leman russ couldn't even shoot me outside 12". Sure their potential damage is greater but they are rendered harmless or destroyed just as easy.

that was done with the assumption that neutronagers do minimum damage of 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I get what you're saying about deviation. But what you have to realize is the russ has LESS deviation not more assuming bs of perfect and minimum shots the neutronager gets 3 wounds the demolisher 7 it's just has more shots to throw more wounds higher toughness and on average it's 2 times more efficient... and the plasmacutioner is an absolute beast


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The real kicker is statistically speaking the more dice you are throwing the less deviation you'll have so not only is something like a plasmacutioner 2 times more efficient as anti tank, it is more reliable not less. It also has far greater anti meq abuility. This is all before orders mind you.

The only saving grace might be the proliferation of -1 to whit which impacts guard more than us.

Wulfey wrote:
[...]
Celestine: as much as she did work all the time, in ITC she gives up full points on kingslayer and headhunter (since geminae are characters) every game. She devastates certain opponents, but people who bring truly hard lists will not be phased by celestine's modest damage output. Also, since conscripts are dead, she won't have the insane synergy with her 6++, TAKE COVER, and the +1 to save psychic power.
[...]

Celestine needs seraphims as her bodyguard. They are almost mandatory combo to run. No one of them really shines without the other.

 takonite wrote:
Great write up, few questions
1.No Creed for extra command points?
2. 2 Neutron Ongars, did you ever feel the need for an icarus cannon array? Now that Eldar hemlocks might be a big thing, would you consider the Icarus more now?
3. Can Neutron Ongars still compete for space in a list with double fire Russes and Basilisks?
4. Are you allowed to just freely choose between Kurov's Aquila or the Cadia Relic at the beginning of any match at ITC? It seemed like you didn't stick to just one relic

Not enough points for creed.
The +2 to hit strategem makes the icarus dead. If you use the +2 to hit then the neutron is practically guaranteed to ace a flier that has no invul save.
Neutrons are the only admech response to heavy armor. Russes and basilisks are just better now tho.
I wasn't choosing. I always took Kurov's, but sometimes spent the extra CP for the extra relic. Since it is strategem not part of my list.

EDIT: to above, yes, that is why I brought 1 geminae. The second is not worth it at all. But having that geminae allower her to complete charges when she died on overwatch (since geminae still alive) and I also got celestine back up with 3 wounds one game for a third life. But she still got eaten eventually by the yncarne.

oh right I forgot you could spend CP for an extra relic, cheers

 takonite wrote:
oh right I forgot you could spend CP for an extra relic, cheers

If you're an AdMech player, who could blame you for that

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 takonite wrote:
oh right I forgot you could spend CP for an extra relic, cheers

If you're an AdMech player, who could blame you for that

burn. To. E fair there's a lot of relics we can take......operative word:can

thinking a lot about screens in a post-conscript world. I think GW does still want us to screening as a strategy, but they want everything to have a counter. Anything being both cheap AND so immune to morale was a design flaw they've fixed.

Like Dragoons, I think there are some creative options. My ATC army used Deathwing Knights to screen when needed; and when not needed they deep struck forward. They're tough against everything but mortal wounds of course.

So what is an AdMech player looking for in a screening unit?
* First, something that can prevent melee units from reaching the robots. That means enough investment to at least slow down Tyranids.
* But second, they should have some value in games that don't require much screening.
* Don't require too much detachment tax to include with AdMech. Troops have an advantage here.

Is anyone experimenting with Space Marine Scout spam? They have great deployment utility, Troops slot, resilient morale, and ability to score objectives while not screening.

I'd almost rather have 1 ranger model rather than a relic :/

 axisofentropy wrote:
thinking a lot about screens in a post-conscript world. I think GW does still want us to screening as a strategy, but they want everything to have a counter. Anything being both cheap AND so immune to morale was a design flaw they've fixed.

Like Dragoons, I think there are some creative options. My ATC army used Deathwing Knights to screen when needed; and when not needed they deep struck forward. They're tough against everything but mortal wounds of course.

So what is an AdMech player looking for in a screening unit?
* First, something that can prevent melee units from reaching the robots. That means enough investment to at least slow down Tyranids.
* But second, they should have some value in games that don't require much screening.
* Don't require too much detachment tax to include with AdMech. Troops have an advantage here.

Is anyone experimenting with Space Marine Scout spam? They have great deployment utility, Troops slot, resilient morale, and ability to score objectives while not screening.

How about the old reliable Dragoon? Squads of two or three Stygies flavor?

Honestly with the new guard codex and eldar I think the dragoon is going to start showing it's weakness. It's never getting a charge off on eldar it's not going to do enough damage to counter guard. And most importantly even with guards conscripts crippled they now vastly outshoot us and can spam high volume firepower. So you might can tie down one russ before the guard player laughs falls back and annihilates the dragoons.

That's the crux of the issue there. Meta is becoming more shooty and we just got way outclassed in shooting.

Goondozer might prove useful in that it's countering the shooty meta but cp intensive.

If you want to get 100% real for a second, if you play competitive..... avoid admech at this point. The advantages we had just got blown out of the water by guard. Admech has been relegated to fun lists only.

gendoikari87 wrote:
It's never getting a charge off on elda

we just got way outclassed in shooting.

Hyperbole level over 9000

gendoikari87 wrote:
Honestly with the new guard codex and eldar I think the dragoon is going to start showing it's weakness. It's never getting a charge off on eldar it's not going to do enough damage to counter guard. And most importantly even with guards conscripts crippled they now vastly outshoot us and can spam high volume firepower. So you might can tie down one russ before the guard player laughs falls back and annihilates the dragoons.

That's the crux of the issue there. Meta is becoming more shooty and we just got way outclassed in shooting.

Goondozer might prove useful in that it's countering the shooty meta but cp intensive.

If you want to get 100% real for a second, if you play competitive..... avoid admech at this point. The advantages we had just got blown out of the water by guard. Admech has been relegated to fun lists only.

Our Dragoons are still -2 to-hit with shooting. Can't forget that. And it isn't about getting a charge off - we are talking screens, remember? It is about eating charges. They do this well.

Goondozer is not the point either - that is a solid option when we have a chaff screen. Without it? I am tempted to just go back to stringing out Dragoons for a screen. It worked before with just the -1 to-hit. Why not now?

And 100% for real - we all know we aren't top tier. That doesn't mean we can't try to do what we can with what we got. So reiterating that point ad nauseum won't get us anywhere.

Plus, let us not forget Chapter Approved. Not that I am holding my breath, but we might get a point adjustment in that. Hopefully. We need a lot of point reductions across the board - units and weapons. If we don't get that, I am not sure Fires will save us either, though at least we would get some new toys.

@Wulfey
I told you to run 2 Icarus Crawlers. They do better than Neutron against Magnus, Mortarion, and Celestine, plus they massacre Tau and Eldar bikes, jetpacks, skimmers/hovers, etc. =P

Glad to see you did well though. I need to play games, but I have been too busy at work.

Also, what are the dimensions of Earthshaker Battteries supposed to be anyway?

Suzuteo wrote:
@Wulfey
I told you to run 2 Icarus Crawlers. They do better than Neutron against Magnus, Mortarion, and Celestine, plus they massacre Tau and Eldar bikes, jetpacks, skimmers/hovers, etc. =P

Glad to see you did well though. I need to play games, but I have been too busy at work.

Also, what are the dimensions of Earthshaker Battteries supposed to be anyway?

Just tested the Icarus vs Neutron against Magnus.

Seems Suzuteo is right.

Here's the math:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Our Dragoons are still -2 to-hit with shooting. Can't forget that. And it isn't about getting a charge off - we are talking screens, remember? It is about eating charges. They do this well.
.

and it's a wholly irrelevant thing to do when the top armies sit back and shoot you.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Our Dragoons are still -2 to-hit with shooting. Can't forget that. And it isn't about getting a charge off - we are talking screens, remember? It is about eating charges. They do this well.
.

and it's a wholly irrelevant thing to do when the top armies sit back and shoot you.

In that sense, Stygies also provides flexibility. If it's a sit and shoot army, you ambush your Dragoons to get them in their face quicker. If it's alpha strike, you screen and enjoy the -2 to hit.

Plasma Pask: 257 points
- Executioner Turret
- Plasma Cannon Sponsons
- Lascannon Hull Weapon
- Pintle Heavy Stubber
- Hunter-Killer Missile
Vengeance for Cadia Stratagem, rerolling all failed hit/wound rolls
Overcharging all Plasma weapons for +1 S and +1 D
Not moving, double-firing plasma turret and firing at regular BS
Pask's ability to reroll variable attacks factored in

Dakkabot: 110 points
- Triple Heavy Phosphor
Cawl nearby for reroll failed hit rolls
Wrath of Mars stratagem for MW on 6s

Point-Cost Durability represents the effectiveness ratio of the point cost of the shooting to Magnus' cost.

The dakkabot, as you can see, has a 176 ratio which means that you need to pour 176% of Magnus' cost in dakkabots to be able to take him out.

Results:

Hey guys, remember to send GW messages about Admech being over costed and we need our powerfists and tech preiats reduced to fit in line with the other codexs. Go to Warhammer community and let them know that are servitors dominus and so forth are all over costed as they do read that stuff. But remember be polite!!

 Tsol wrote:
Hey guys, remember to send GW messages about Admech being over costed and we need our powerfists and tech preiats reduced to fit in line with the other codexs. Go to Warhammer community and let them know that are servitors dominus and so forth are all over costed as they do read that stuff. But remember be polite!!

How do I go about doing that?

Icarus damage profile is redundant with the robots. I don't need more Str6/7 firepower. The Neutron provides str10 -4, something I can't get anywhere else. High invul save models like magnus are only countered by mortal wounds anyways, which is the job of the robots. Even if the icarus is marginally more effective point for point on magnus ... who cares. I mathed it out. They do like 2.5 expected wounds at best. Only wrath of mars dakkabots threaten primarchs.