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Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?

You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.

T5 is really strong i heard.


Gotta be honest, I was petrified when they announced T5 that they were going to nerf boyz so hard that T5 would be irrelevant. Turns out I was right

Lets assume 2 month lead time to write rules and send to printer. Orkz except for about the first month haven't been using troops pretty much at all. So why the hell would they not fix the biggest glaring problem with the ork codex, that being that NONE of our troops choices are worth taking.


Here's my garbage take.

Wracks.

M7 S3 T4 A2, 6++/5+++, AP1 & Poison

Snagga Boyz.

M5 S5 T5 A2, 6++, AP1, extra attack, & +1 to hit vs VEH/MON, W2 Nob

Turn 2 Advance and Charge vs Waaagh Advance and Charge
Turn 3 +1 to hit vs Waaagh +1A for two turns

For 80 points you can make Wracks T5.
For 80 to 85 points you can give Boyz 6++ or 6+++.

S4 AP1 Wound

6++ Snaggas - 0.28
6++/6+++ Snaggas - 0.23
T4 Wracks - 0.28 ( 0.22 by round 4 )
T5 Wracks - 0.18 ( 0.15 by round 4 )

For 20 Wracks and a Haemonculus you can get 16 to 17 Snaggas and a Painboy. Snaggas are going to hit harder in melee and have a close enough durability profile.

20 Wracks are commonly used in Thicc City. They Webway for 1CP. Orks can do the same for 2CP.

T5 matters. There is a very low volume of S6 shooting in most lists.

Drukhari on the whole have a lot of really good strats that push them over the edge. You're not going to run multiple hordes of Boyz, but I bet you could run a 19 man in a BW with a Painboy and cause a significant amount of disruption. Orks also have super killy characters and cheap useful shooting.

Maybe Boyz will get to 8 points, but they're never going lower than that.


Boyz would be useless at 7ppm LOL.

What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.


Wracks are only 1 LD higher then the boys and the same exact attrition roll would apply to them, so thats basically a none issue that you listed.

You also have ZERO cheap transport options to transport the large wrack unit unless you think a tantalus is cheap, at which point I'd just point back at the BW. So yea, a lot of hilariously out of wack comparisons happening in bad faith.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 20:52:02


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Famous last words, but I think Thicc City relied on the compounding defensive bonuses on Talos and to a degree Grots plus the offensive power of DTed Cronos (who are already quite resilient for the points anyway). The last of which will be lot less damaging without DT - although they'll still be very tough for the points with Artisans of Flesh if someone were to try it. I suspect the list will see a more radical change though.

Its hard to imagine an Ork list that would work in the same sort of way. But maybe I lack imagination - but its very hard when all the units you'd fancy trying to slot in have been nerfed.

Basically I don't think Thicc City is relying on that one big unit of Wracks - and I think some variants haven't bothered with it as a result. You could I guess have one unit of Boyz or Boyz+1 but... its not obvious this is going to help much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 21:33:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Red Corsair wrote:

Wracks are only 1 LD higher then the boys and the same exact attrition roll would apply to them, so thats basically a none issue that you listed.

You also have ZERO cheap transport options to transport the large wrack unit unless you think a tantalus is cheap, at which point I'd just point back at the BW. So yea, a lot of hilariously out of wack comparisons happening in bad faith.


Size of average Wrack Unit in 40kstats is *checks notes....... 5 in fact almost all of them were units of 5. So leadership 8 means you have to lose 80% of the unit to have a 33% chance of failing morale. The biggest size I saw was 10 and it was super rare. And at 10 you have to lose 5 to have a 50% chance of failing morale. I don't play DE so please tell me, is there any reason to take more than 5? Because you aren't taking Wracks for their melee abilities, your taking them to spam Liquifiers which are super effective against most targets and the only plausible reason I can see anyone taking 10 is because they desperately wanted that 3rd liquifier gun in the squad ...which doesn't make sense because you could just take an extra squad for the same price and then you get more bang for your buck.

As far as "Cheap" transports...raiders lol, yeah they got "nerfed" to 105pts but even at that price they are a steal. They are 35pts more than a trukk, they are
faster, better WS and better BS (1 and 2 respectively) same S and T, same wounds, same attacks, +1 leadership and most importantly, has an inbuilt 5+ invuln save compared to Ramshackle for the Trukk. Ohh, and of course it also comes standard with a Melee weapon (+1S and -1AP) AND has a Dark Lance compared to the Trukk's big shoota. Ohh also forgot, it has fly

So comparing Wracks melee ability to that of boyz is a bit silly since those boyz are only good in CC where as the wracks are good in CC but better using their Liquifiers. And since there is no benefit that I am aware of to taking large mobz of Wracks there is no point not to take them in MSU 5 man squads where they are effectively immune to Morale. Again, I don't play DE so please correct anything you see as incorrect.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
SNIP

What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.


I'd not even dare field a snagga boy, atm because they have the same issues as boys but are somehow more expensive...

You take snagga because you want killrigs and it means you don’t need to buy another transport.
If you don’t take killrigs you take trukk boys so they can actually do something. And if you don’t want trukk boys you take an overpriced unit of orrible grots.

Boys would be fine at -1pts but still not good. They butchered morale for orks by removing all abilities that helped morale. No more mob rule (new one is useless), no more breakin eads (overpriced strat) and not only do blasts make it easier to kill larger units Gw removed the boy ability that gave them an extra atk and a any reason to take large units and then raised the cost of boys. They really went out of thier way to make boys bad this edition. And grots omg worst 5pt unit in game by far.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
SNIP

What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.


I'd not even dare field a snagga boy, atm because they have the same issues as boys but are somehow more expensive...


Well, yes and no. Unlike boyz, Snagga boyz actually have stratagems to support them, and the extra point of strength allows them to kill relevant amounts rank and file infantry while putting a dent in some things that boyz can't really touch. While the 6++ isn't awesome, it does help as well. On the downside, they don't even get a proper PK.

If they were to lose a point or two, they might actually be good enough.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/24 07:22:19


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Wracks also work in cheap squads of 5. Boyz would be way more common if their min squad was 5.

The 80 points tax from haemonculus isn't really a tax since you're required to take an haemonculus if you want coven stuff, unless you select Drazhar instead. And he massively buffs the pain engines as well, which are very good units. A painboy is a pure useless tax instead, that should never see the table as it currently is.

The sad reality of ork troops is that a player might choose beastnaggas if he wants kill rigs (although they're also pretty legit as empty tanks), ork boyz if he wants to rely on the trukk boyz combo (which is only one per detachment) or gretchins if he doesn't want to invest more than 50 points on troops. That's it, there are no other combinations if we're talking about optimized armies, not even tournament level lists.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Possibly wildly off topic - but for Semper.

Thicc City is usually something like the list Siegler ran at the Austin GT - although there have been various variants in the month since.

Something like this:
Patrol - Artists of Flesh (-1 damage).
Haemonculus
Big unit of wracks (17 in this case)
5 man unit of wracks.
5 man unit of wracks.
2*4 Grotesques.
2*2 Talos.

Patrol - Dark Technomancers
Succubus
5 Wracks
2*3 Cronos

Patrol - Kabal of the Black Heart
Archon
Court of the Archon
5 Wracks
5 Mandrakes

There's no transports.

The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does. Which might be true - but I'm not sure you have stand ins for everything else.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tyel wrote:
The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does.


Wait, what? Are you serious?

Is there even a single thing that boyz can do that wracks aren't vastly superior at?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just at a first glance - better melee, better shooting, faster, better save, FNP, lower minimum model count, better leadership, multiple good and cheap stratagems...
And all that before even considering a coven to put them even further apart from boyz.

Give that datasheet to boyz, and I'll gladly pay 11 points per model.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/24 12:23:16


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.


Keep an eye out for more information about the other tie-ins you can expect, like the Eldritch Omens boxed set, a Kill Team expansion, and Mission Packs in both Crusade and Grand Tournament flavours. Sign up for the Warhammer Community Newsletter so you don’t miss out.

So that's how we'll get the two updated Marine datasheets apparently.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Tyel wrote:
The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does.


Wait, what? Are you serious?

Is there even a single thing that boyz can do that wracks aren't vastly superior at?


I think you need to consider what Daed was saying - comparing a very specific use of Wracks in a big unit - i.e. 17, 20 strong.

I agree Wracks are better in numerous ways you mention - but saying "wracks are run in 5 man units" or "wracks get transports" isn't really the killing blow when we are talking about a big unit being run in a GT winning list.
These Wracks aren't really bringing shooting weapons (I think they had one Ossefactor), so that's not it either. I'd have thought assault was much of a wash - sure poison attacks and eventually WS2+, but the Boyz/Snaggas have 3 attacks base, Snaggas are S5 base too. The Wracks have 1 more morale - but if you kill a decent number of them they are still going to be failing 5 times in 6 and a bunch will run off.

I'd have thought the real issue is that 8 points for T4/6+/5++ is incredible toughness - and Orks can't really match it. The -1 damage potential from Artists of Flesh is limited due to only having 1 wound, but does help save models versus 2 damage attacks. On paper you could waddle a bunch of say Snaggas up the table with a pocket painboy or painboss - but that's a lot of points for T5 6+/6++.

You could tellyporta to match webway portal - but then its some T5/6++ bodies (or boys with no invul) trying to deny an objective versus more T4/6++/5+++ bodies, which just seems much worse versus a whole range of weapon types (possibly all of them). And its unclear this synergises as well with whatever else you are planning on bringing. Hence why Ork players have not really done this after the first couple of weeks of experimentation.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Gee, for a book that has Abaddon on the cover and talks a lot about him in the hype article, there sure is a big heap of nothing for chaos players in that!

Not that I'm surprised, but still felt it should be pointed out.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






I haven't got any of these 9th ed books yet because I keep forgetting, but how does the Crusade stuff work? The campaign is in Vigilus Alone but then there's also the mission pack? My brain needs help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/24 14:03:11


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Fergie0044 wrote:
Gee, for a book that has Abaddon on the cover and talks a lot about him in the hype article, there sure is a big heap of nothing for chaos players in that!

Not that I'm surprised, but still felt it should be pointed out.

Ruleswise, certainly.

Can't help but notice "The Despoiler's Dreadkin" in the lore section though...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Tyel wrote:
The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does.


Wait, what? Are you serious?

Is there even a single thing that boyz can do that wracks aren't vastly superior at?


I think you need to consider what Daed was saying - comparing a very specific use of Wracks in a big unit - i.e. 17, 20 strong.

I agree Wracks are better in numerous ways you mention - but saying "wracks are run in 5 man units" or "wracks get transports" isn't really the killing blow when we are talking about a big unit being run in a GT winning list.
These Wracks aren't really bringing shooting weapons (I think they had one Ossefactor), so that's not it either. I'd have thought assault was much of a wash - sure poison attacks and eventually WS2+, but the Boyz/Snaggas have 3 attacks base, Snaggas are S5 base too. The Wracks have 1 more morale - but if you kill a decent number of them they are still going to be failing 5 times in 6 and a bunch will run off.

I'd have thought the real issue is that 8 points for T4/6+/5++ is incredible toughness - and Orks can't really match it. The -1 damage potential from Artists of Flesh is limited due to only having 1 wound, but does help save models versus 2 damage attacks. On paper you could waddle a bunch of say Snaggas up the table with a pocket painboy or painboss - but that's a lot of points for T5 6+/6++.

You could tellyporta to match webway portal - but then its some T5/6++ bodies (or boys with no invul) trying to deny an objective versus more T4/6++/5+++ bodies, which just seems much worse versus a whole range of weapon types (possibly all of them). And its unclear this synergises as well with whatever else you are planning on bringing. Hence why Ork players have not really done this after the first couple of weeks of experimentation.


There is play. Snaggas beat Wracks in a few areas. Yes, Wracks are not THE defining part of Thicc City, but they contribute extensively, because they're the ones left when you take out the Talos.

3x10 Snaggas and 1x10 Boyz just went 8-0 so at the very least they aren't a hinderance and I don't imagine he used them as just action monkeys when he could have spent less on regulard boyz and not made the regular boyz into trukk boyz.

And it's almost built like Thicc City with Ghaz and two Rigs, but I believe this list is now over points, so you'd have to squeeze something out.

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Orks) [90 PL, -4CP, 1,700pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Makari [3 PL, 55pts]

Warboss [5 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss

Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork

+ Troops +

Beast Snagga Boyz [5 PL, 110pts]
. 9x Beast Snagga Boy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga
. Beast Snagga Nob

Beast Snagga Boyz [5 PL, 110pts]
. 9x Beast Snagga Boy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga
. Beast Snagga Nob

Beast Snagga Boyz [5 PL, 110pts]
. 9x Beast Snagga Boy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga
. Beast Snagga Nob

Boyz [5 PL, 90pts]: Trukk Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs

+ Elites +

Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 4x Kommando: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [15 PL, 270pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet
. Megatrakk Scrapjet
. Megatrakk Scrapjet

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [15 PL, 270pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy

+ Heavy Support +

Kill Rig [10 PL, 190pts]: 2. Frazzle, 6. Squiggly Curse

Kill Rig [10 PL, 190pts]: 2. Frazzle, 6. Squiggly Curse

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk [4 PL, 75pts]: Grabbin' Klaw

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Orks) [15 PL, 15CP, 300pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Ghazghkull Thraka [15 PL, 300pts]

++ Total: [105 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/24 15:35:33


   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




I already pointed this out in the sisters thread but unless Bloody Rose gets like...30+stratagems, they used 4-5 pages of the rules section for army photos.

Which just reinforces my decision to never buy campain books.

2 pages for a codex supplement...5 pages for photos of models I can look at on my own shelf.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/24 16:07:58


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

ERJAK wrote:
I already pointed this out in the sisters thread but unless Bloody Rose gets like...30+stratagems, they used 4-5 pages of the rules section for army photos.

Which just reinforces my decision to never buy campain books.

2 pages for a codex supplement...5 pages for photos of models I can look at on my own shelf.

A wise decision indeed. And it would be wise not to waste $40 on this either. CSM: 12 PPM, Warp Talons: 20 PPM. *marks in codex with pen*. There, done. Look, I just saved myself $40.

And thanks for all of the "buffs" for vehicles gw. Let's see, the "buffs" for CSM vehicles = +15 PPM for the KLOS. Wow, awesome. Thanks. And a 30W, 2+ save Astraeus with two void shields is now 10 points cheaper than a 26W 3+ save quad sponson Baneblade. Such balance.
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

I'm shocked, shocked I say, that most of the rules content in a campaign book is campaign rules. Boggles the mind, it does.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
There is play. Snaggas beat Wracks in a few areas. Yes, Wracks are not THE defining part of Thicc City, but they contribute extensively, because they're the ones left when you take out the Talos.

3x10 Snaggas and 1x10 Boyz just went 8-0 so at the very least they aren't a hinderance and I don't imagine he used them as just action monkeys when he could have spent less on regulard boyz and not made the regular boyz into trukk boyz.

And it's almost built like Thicc City with Ghaz and two Rigs, but I believe this list is now over points, so you'd have to squeeze something out.

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Orks) [90 PL, -4CP, 1,700pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Makari [3 PL, 55pts]

Warboss [5 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss

Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork

+ Troops +

Beast Snagga Boyz [5 PL, 110pts]
. 9x Beast Snagga Boy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga
. Beast Snagga Nob

Beast Snagga Boyz [5 PL, 110pts]
. 9x Beast Snagga Boy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga
. Beast Snagga Nob

Beast Snagga Boyz [5 PL, 110pts]
. 9x Beast Snagga Boy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga
. Beast Snagga Nob

Boyz [5 PL, 90pts]: Trukk Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs

+ Elites +

Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 4x Kommando: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [15 PL, 270pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet
. Megatrakk Scrapjet
. Megatrakk Scrapjet

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [15 PL, 270pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy

+ Heavy Support +

Kill Rig [10 PL, 190pts]: 2. Frazzle, 6. Squiggly Curse

Kill Rig [10 PL, 190pts]: 2. Frazzle, 6. Squiggly Curse

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk [4 PL, 75pts]: Grabbin' Klaw

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Orks) [15 PL, 15CP, 300pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Ghazghkull Thraka [15 PL, 300pts]

++ Total: [105 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++


If you cut the useless boyz from that list down to a minimum 1-2 and replace them with units that do have a purpose, you just have the goff tempo build.

Thrakka also isn't anything but a fun unit, he is too expensive.

Using beast snaggas as wracks is nonsense for two reaons - wracks are a lot faster, fight better due to extra AP and special weapons, have relevant shooting and you can just dump 3 CP on them to get re-roll everything.

That you are even trying to argue that wracks are remotely in the same league as ork troops is mind-blowing. How can you serious believe that?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/24 17:06:37


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127

This should probably have it's own thread. Definitely big news if true.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127

This should probably have it's own thread. Definitely big news if true.


I sadly lack the willpower to maintain a thread, someone else is more than welcome to split as needed.

My main gripe: where's news of my boi Huron.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127

This should probably have it's own thread. Definitely big news if true.


I sadly lack the willpower to maintain a thread, someone else is more than welcome to split as needed.

My main gripe: where's news of my boi Huron.

It'll come, hopefully with a new model. He is getting a BL novel though.
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




Sentient Void

Chapter Approved is already dated. I hope none of you spent money on it...

Paradigm for a happy relationship with Games Workshop: Burn the books and take the models to a different game. 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




I think that rumored list is a bit weird. Having such a complex list of conditions tied to a legion trait seems like it may be asking for trouble. And those seem better than the chapter traits for loyalists, though their traits also modify their doctrines so there’s that I suppose.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Dudeface wrote:
Mutilators
no longer in the book
*sigh* They really do never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...

And no Renegade Chapters and EC in the book. That's... wonderful.

 Fergie0044 wrote:
Gee, for a book that has Abaddon on the cover and talks a lot about him in the hype article, there sure is a big heap of nothing for chaos players in that!
They could always reprint the Psychic Awakening stuff for a third time.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/24 22:13:46


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Tokhuah wrote:
Chapter Approved is already dated. I hope none of you spent money on it...

How so - I don't see anything on the WHC Downloads section, nor an article on WHC with material that would make the book outdated already.

I hope that last bit isn't you encouraging people to pirate it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Mutilators
no longer in the book
*sigh* They really do never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...

And no Renegade Chapters and EC in the book. That's... wonderful.

It isn't very clearly laid out, HBMC, but it looked like it was indicating that EC were in the book. Doesn't mention Renegades either way, so who knows?

Given that speculation is that WE aren't in the book, maybe Mutilators are being moved to be WE-exclusive? I don't know if the background makes sense for that, and I can see it being annoying for anyone who owns them painted for other Legions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 00:14:20


2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Dysartes wrote:
It isn't very clearly laid out, HBMC, but it looked like it was indicating that EC were in the book. Doesn't mention Renegades either way, so who knows?
The only thing not clearly laid out was my sentence structure!

I meant "no Renegade Chapters" and "EC in the book" as separate points, but expressed that poorly. I didn't mean to say "no EC in the book", even though looking back I seem to have said just that. My bad.

The lack of Renegade Chapters is a problem as last time around Chaos had to wait for an expansion to get those, and given GW's obsession with DLC books, I wouldn't put it past them to reserve the Red Corsairs and anyone else for a separate book. As for the EC being in, that's very bad, because it means - if true - then one of two things is going to happen:

1. The new Chaos Codex will come with a brand new Noise Marine kit, and thus the Codex entry will include all the rules for the new options/weapon profiles/etc.
2. The new Chaos Codex will not come with a brand new Noise Marine kit, the rules will remain based on the (now invalid) conversion kit, and when the EC book arrives, the Noise Marine rules in that book will be different from the Noise Marine rules in the Chaos Codex.

I predict the latter, which is precisely why I wanted the EC and WE to get their books prior to the Chaos Codex.

 Dysartes wrote:
Given that speculation is that WE aren't in the book, maybe Mutilators are being moved to be WE-exclusive? I don't know if the background makes sense for that, and I can see it being annoying for anyone who owns them painted for other Legions.
I hadn't considered that last part, so yes, but people will just say "Use 'em as Oblits!".

My real disappointment here is that GW had a chance to do a 3-man plastic kit that makes 3 Oblits or 3 Mutilators, but like with Grotesques, have failed to make that leap. Instead we get 2 Oblits - mono-pose, no modelling options, no nothing - in a combined sprue available only in a bundle box. And if we do, by some miracle, end up getting a separate Oblit kit (of which no rumours have hinted at), then it still won't have Mutilators. A missed opportunity.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Tokhuah wrote:
Chapter Approved is already dated. I hope none of you spent money on it...


Oh? Missions were already changed? As that's what ca is. Mission pack.(points you get free even with tools gw gives you)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 04:47:44


2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:

fight better due to extra AP and special weapons, have relevant shooting and you can just dump 3 CP on them to get re-roll everything.

That you are even trying to argue that wracks are remotely in the same league as ork troops is mind-blowing. How can you serious believe that?


I've played Thicc City three times now. Wracks don't generally get used like that. Extra AP is ~1 in 7 attacks when they have their +1 at R3. They're just stupid beefy donkey-caves that punch above their class, because there's so little S5/S6 out there. The specials just add cost for the way most of them get used -- except for the whip.

Boyz get twice the attacks under Waaagh. Wracks get Metallotoxins to eff with vehicles by wounding on 4s with poison. Snaggas....wound every vehicle and monster in the game on 4s...

Blade Artists is irrelevant. 10 Snaggas @ 110 and 10 Wracks @ 85 with a Whip.

Snaggas kill 5 marines 43% of the time with Waaagh
Spoiler:


Wracks do that 5% of the time with Blade Arists and +1 to hit
Spoiler:


Without Waaagh Snaggas kill 3+ 72% of the time. Wracks as above kill 3+ 58% of the time.

That Ork list literally beat Crusher Stampede and DE. Wracks get -1D for the off occasion D2 comes their way - Goffs get exploding 6s.

They're just not the mathematical hinderance people think they are. Blobs of 60/90/120+? Surely not, but you can absolutely run 10 or 20 mans in a competent list and get away with it.





This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/25 13:52:01


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


I've played Thicc City three times now. Wracks don't generally get used like that. Extra AP is ~1 in 7 attacks when they have their +1 at R3. They're just stupid beefy donkey-caves that punch above their class, because there's so little S5/S6 out there. The specials just add cost for the way most of them get used -- except for the whip.

Boyz get twice the attacks under Waaagh. Wracks get Metallotoxins to eff with vehicles by wounding on 4s with poison. Snaggas....wound every vehicle and monster in the game on 4s...

Blade Artists is irrelevant. 10 Snaggas @ 110 and 10 Wracks @ 85 with a Whip.

Snaggas kill 5 marines 43% of the time with Waaagh
Spoiler:


Wracks do that 5% of the time with Blade Arists and +1 to hit
Spoiler:


Without Waaagh Snaggas kill 3+ 72% of the time. Wracks as above kill 3+ 58% of the time.

That Ork list literally beat Crusher Stampede and DE. Wracks get -1D for the off occasion D2 comes their way - Goffs get exploding 6s.

They're just not the mathematical hinderance people think they are. Blobs of 60/90/120+? Surely not, but you can absolutely run 10 or 20 mans in a competent list and get away with it.

And yet MOST DE lists are running a plethora of Wracks while the vast majority of Ork lists aren't even taking troops, or at best 1 MSU tax unit.

The fact that you have to go out of your way to find examples of Boyz in any lists at all is the proof that boyz/snaggas aren't in the same league as DE, and what's more...DE are absolutely top tier right now, while Orkz are at best 2nd tier. So the top faction spams 3+ units of Wracks but the 2nd tier tries to avoid troops in general. But in your head they are the same....wow.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 15:08:29


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
 
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