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Im considering buying a bunch of dripper bottles like the vallejo game color ones and transferring all my paint from the citadel tubs cause i lose so much paint from it drying on the edge. Has anyone done this?
Also, measuring paint; how do you do it? i have problems getting the same hues different days since i only use a brush for measurement, does anyone use a dripper or other way to measure?
Yes a few years ago I moved my then collection of GW paints over to dropper bottles. I found them at US Plastics and got like 50 for $20 or so. If you are careful and take your time you can literally poor pone into the other. You will have a bit of wastage in the old pots but that's just life.
As to measuring, if you are going to stick with pots get an eye dropper. Pull paint out with it and measure the drops. For dropper bottles its pretty self explanatory.
I've done this with all my GW paints.
I got 15ml bottles on ebay from china, 200 for about £35
(still have a bunch spare)
to move a paint across to one you can do it while wasting less paint than it would take to coat a space marine.
I added medium to all of my paints, I mixed up a bottle of distilled (important as its for long term storing) water, with flow aid, drying retarder, matt medium and airbrush medium (all liquitex additives for me)
Then I'd shake up the GW pot really well, when you think its shaken, shake it again, twice, because it wasnt as well shaken as you thought.
Flip the top open (breaking the seal for the first time) if the paint is a bit thick, add a few drops of your water / medium mix, close it up and shake again ~ we want to be able to pour it from the citadel pot directly into the dropper, if thats not easy cus its too thick, add some water (sparingly we dont want to over thin the whole pot)
When you cant pour anymore out of the flip top intot he dropper, add more of the water / medium mix into the flip top, close and shake. (dont fill it up, just enough that you can swill it around in the pot (and enough that it will fit into the dropper as thats now atleast 60% full. (even brand new GW paints vary lots in volume as they dry out in the pots - the seals are only semi effective at best)
By rinsing out the pot with medium / water you can get all but the tiniest traces of paint out. no need to any brushes, mixing sticks, pipettes, funnels etc, quite literally contact with anything is a waste of paint. best way to go is to pour as much as possible directly into the target vessel.
By using medium instead of straight water, you actually are maintaining the acrylic film strength as you thin.
By using distilled water you shjould avoid a situation of things growing in your paint in 6-12 months time)
The other really handy thing I did witht hem, was to buy a bag of a few hundred round 3mm glass beads. drop a bunch into every bottle ~ agitators for shaking the paint up easier.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 10:53:46
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
You sirs are gentlemen and scholars. I will acquire myself a big batch of bottles from china. And yea using medium straight up sounds smart, will do. just need a gakload more ^^ Thanks
kb_lock wrote: I, too, have done this - best decision ever.
I added medium, and flow improver, and a drying retarder to each paint - some to thin so I could pour it, some to wash the rest of the pot out.
Hip flask funnels are dirt cheap on ebay, and fit pretty well.
Still though, no need for the funnel, just a steady hand. I've done well over 100 citadels into droppers and never used a funnel, pippette or brush or anything yet. No disasters either. Just take your time. Pour from a height to narrow the stream, not too fast.
Other than that, pretty much what I did, Glass beads (measure the bottle neck size before buying) are brilliant agitators, i chuck a few in every bottle.
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
I probably could have avoided the funnel, but I didn't trust myself. I also used a brush to get more of ~the good stuff~ out of the pot (and the funnel). Wastage was really low.
A note on mixing, even with dropper bottles don't expect to get an exact match one day to the next. You should be able to get pretty close, but I wouldn't count on getting an exact match, if you want an exact match you just have to mix up a decent amount in a pot and seal it up or use a wet palette if you don't need a lot of it and plan on using it reasonably soon.
I've been painting up some British WW2 tanks in batches and I precisely drop out the same proportions of paint from Vallejo droppers each time, but there's enough variation that I can still tell which ones came from different batches. For some reason the most recent batch is brighter than the previous batch (not enough for me to care about otherwise I would have bought another pot to mix a large amount of paint in, but definitely noticeable.
As for agitators, I'd personally avoid stainless steel because I've seen various types of stainless steel corrode when placed under water for prolonged periods.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 09:45:19
AllSeeingSkink wrote: A note on mixing, even with dropper bottles don't expect to get an exact match one day to the next. You should be able to get pretty close, but I wouldn't count on getting an exact match, if you want an exact match you just have to mix up a decent amount in a pot and seal it up or use a wet palette if you don't need a lot of it and plan on using it reasonably soon.
I've been painting up some British WW2 tanks in batches and I precisely drop out the same proportions of paint from Vallejo droppers each time, but there's enough variation that I can still tell which ones came from different batches. For some reason the most recent batch is brighter than the previous batch (not enough for me to care about otherwise I would have bought another pot to mix a large amount of paint in, but definitely noticeable.
As for agitators, I'd personally avoid stainless steel because I've seen various types of stainless steel corrode when placed under water for prolonged periods.
I can tell you a couple of reasons that might be ;
1 - the paint viscosity will change over time because you probably didnt shake it well enough. (atleast one of the times)
2- because the paint viscosity varies like that, so does the droplet size given by the bottles nozzle.
3 - becasue the viscosity varies, and the paint becomes unmixed (even a tiny amount) you get varying numbers of pigment particles to acrylic medium per drop too.
(I fibbed theres only one root cause, shake it more - also the frist few drops out tend to end up being realyl thin as thats what sits at the top when you shake it its stuck up in the nozzle you would have to run that out everytime you intend to use the colour to get consistent results.
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
just a little tip for anyone still using pots, the back of the brush works better, in my experience, for getting the right size drops on the pallette...
for example, i record all of my mixes as drops, like 3-1 means three drops of one color, and one drop of another...
when i am mixing, i get the paint out of the pot lid with the back end of the brush, and touch the pallette with the blob...
whatever size that first drop is, i match it with the next ones...
i get the same mix every time with this technique...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: A note on mixing, even with dropper bottles don't expect to get an exact match one day to the next. You should be able to get pretty close, but I wouldn't count on getting an exact match, if you want an exact match you just have to mix up a decent amount in a pot and seal it up or use a wet palette if you don't need a lot of it and plan on using it reasonably soon.
I've been painting up some British WW2 tanks in batches and I precisely drop out the same proportions of paint from Vallejo droppers each time, but there's enough variation that I can still tell which ones came from different batches. For some reason the most recent batch is brighter than the previous batch (not enough for me to care about otherwise I would have bought another pot to mix a large amount of paint in, but definitely noticeable.
As for agitators, I'd personally avoid stainless steel because I've seen various types of stainless steel corrode when placed under water for prolonged periods.
I can tell you a couple of reasons that might be ;
1 - the paint viscosity will change over time because you probably didnt shake it well enough. (atleast one of the times)
2- because the paint viscosity varies like that, so does the droplet size given by the bottles nozzle.
3 - becasue the viscosity varies, and the paint becomes unmixed (even a tiny amount) you get varying numbers of pigment particles to acrylic medium per drop too.
(I fibbed theres only one root cause, shake it more - also the frist few drops out tend to end up being realyl thin as thats what sits at the top when you shake it its stuck up in the nozzle you would have to run that out everytime you intend to use the colour to get consistent results.
I did consider that, but I shake pretty thoroughly and discard the first couple of drops and it still happens. I think it's more because varying amounts of dried paint in the nozzle, air bubbles in the droplets and how hard you squeeze changes the size of the droplets of paint. Squeezing drops of paint from a dropper bottle isn't nearly as precise as a pipette using thinner fluids in a lab.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 23:00:45
AllSeeingSkink wrote: As for agitators, I'd personally avoid stainless steel because I've seen various types of stainless steel corrode when placed under water for prolonged periods.
Very much so - I end up recovering paint from about 50 bottles for a friend who used stainless steel ball bearings. Rusted out in about a month... Glass is generally the safer option unless you are paying verifiably high prices for your stainless steel products - so much of what comes out of China these days is horribly alloyed steel.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: A note on mixing, even with dropper bottles don't expect to get an exact match one day to the next. You should be able to get pretty close, but I wouldn't count on getting an exact match, if you want an exact match you just have to mix up a decent amount in a pot and seal it up or use a wet palette if you don't need a lot of it and plan on using it reasonably soon.
I've been painting up some British WW2 tanks in batches and I precisely drop out the same proportions of paint from Vallejo droppers each time, but there's enough variation that I can still tell which ones came from different batches. For some reason the most recent batch is brighter than the previous batch (not enough for me to care about otherwise I would have bought another pot to mix a large amount of paint in, but definitely noticeable.
As for agitators, I'd personally avoid stainless steel because I've seen various types of stainless steel corrode when placed under water for prolonged periods.
I can tell you a couple of reasons that might be ;
1 - the paint viscosity will change over time because you probably didnt shake it well enough. (atleast one of the times)
2- because the paint viscosity varies like that, so does the droplet size given by the bottles nozzle.
3 - becasue the viscosity varies, and the paint becomes unmixed (even a tiny amount) you get varying numbers of pigment particles to acrylic medium per drop too.
(I fibbed theres only one root cause, shake it more - also the frist few drops out tend to end up being realyl thin as thats what sits at the top when you shake it its stuck up in the nozzle you would have to run that out everytime you intend to use the colour to get consistent results.
I did consider that, but I shake pretty thoroughly and discard the first couple of drops and it still happens. I think it's more because varying amounts of dried paint in the nozzle, air bubbles in the droplets and how hard you squeeze changes the size of the droplets of paint. Squeezing drops of paint from a dropper bottle isn't nearly as precise as a pipette using thinner fluids in a lab.
Can be a bit of a pain - that is one of the reasons I almost always premix for the whole project. If I can't, and the colors are off significantly - I can go back and tone them using a mist of ink afterwards. Sort of evens everything out closer to the same color.
In terms of why it isn't exactly the same...all manner of different causes. Did you shake the bottle 50 times, or 60 times. Barometric pressure impacts paint drop size...which is not directly correlated across different viscosities - so does temperature and humidity. Little bit of dried paint in the tip can also impact it. Your colors will become more accurate as the size of the batch increases too. If you can wait to mix up enough paint to do several tanks as opposed to doing them one at a time - the results for each batch of several will be more similar than each tank painted one at a time (larger batches help to balance out user error...).
kb_lock wrote: Yeah I found out about the rust problem after I'd already put them into bottles :3
That said, I did buy them from a local source that should mean they are at least good enough quality. Been about a year now without any issues.
I also didn't use distilled water, so I am on borrowed time
Unsure how locality actually affects the quality of a ball bearing (or anything really) if its steel, it will rust, end of. If its galvanised, it will not. (Chinese steel, American steel, British Steel is all steel and all corrodes in the same circumstances its a matter of chemistry not locale)
To suggest that one place inherently makes better quality of anything because of the place is asinine.
Not using De-ionised water would speed up the rusting as more ions are present in the mix which can react with stuff, perhaps steal an electron here and there and cause flaws in the metals. Aswell as any living contaminants that will grow into whatever they are (algae or bacteria of some sort)
As for the guy who thinks he shook his paint well enough... LOL try again. none of us ever shook our paints well enough for a 100% even mix without mechanical aid.
(apologies for the sarcasm/bluntness.. its been a long day nothing meant by it)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/03 17:50:30
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
To suggest that one place inherently makes better quality of anything because of the place is asinine.
Not using De-ionised water would speed up the rusting as more ions are present in the mix which can react with stuff, perhaps steal an electron here and there and cause flaws in the metals. Aswell as any living contaminants that will grow into whatever they are (algae or bacteria of some sort)
The source of the stainless steel is a significant one, believe it or not. It is particularly an issue with imported Chinese manufactured stainless steel. While the item will often have the correct blend of chemicals - they will not be properly alloyed with each other leaving areas which are predominantly iron (or predominantly chromium/nickel...). The leads to spots that can rust much more rapidly than the whole of the item. The nature of generic "stainless steel" also leaves a good bit of wiggle room. When I buy stainless steel parts manufactured in the US (or even out of GB...) they are generally going to be 200 or 300 series alloy. Those are the two most common series for general purpose work for us. Out of China, it is much more common to get a Martensitic stainless steel. This is because much of what they are alloying for is benefited from being magnetic as well. Unfortunately, Martensitic stainless steel is not very corrosion resistant (more so than cast iron...but much less than what you would expect out of stainless steel). Some of the less reputable manufacturers will skip on the actual stainless steel and just use a high phosphate steel alloy, combined with a nickel plating.
In terms of the why it happens more there and less here...it falls mainly with the inspections. I buy material here, it comes with a stamp, ANSI certified or ISO whatever. They test batches, monitor equipment, make sure everything is up to snuff. I buy material in China, I get a guy telling me that that is what I asked for...and I can choose to send a sample to a lab to verify it. You can get certified materials out of China - but normally they do not go into the manufacture of nuts, bolts, screws and ball bearings that end up in "regular" stores. They also normally cost as much or more as domestically manufactured products - so, the good stuff is usually domestic and not made in China (unless you are ordering large quantities through a specialist supplier).
BTW - galvanized will rust as well. That is just a surface coating. When the coating is exhausted, damaged or otherwise rendered ineffective - the steel beneath it will rust just like any other steel.
One other factor with the water goes to the water itself. I have lived places, where the water itself has such high iron content it will rust if you leave it in a cup for a day or two. In the aquifer, it is sealed off well enough from oxygen to prevent the iron from actually oxidizing, but once it gets air entrained in the water from the faucet...it starts to rust out on you.
HairySticks wrote: Unsure how locality actually affects the quality of a ball bearing (or anything really) if its steel, it will rust, end of. If its galvanised, it will not.
You've obviously never seen an old galvanised steel roof that is all rusted to hell
Stainless steel varies a lot... but some good quality pots, cutlery, etc, it will last years of use (often at high temperature) before it starts pitting. A cheap set might start pitting after 1 or 2 uses. Even the decent stuff if you expose it to harsh conditions (like leaving it in a dirty pool of water for several weeks) will start pitting. It's not just about how cheap it was as well, some grades of stainless aren't as resilient by design, I'm not a metallurgist at all but I've noticed some of the high strength stainless seems to corrode more readily (which is used in some areas to replace carbon steel where higher strength and impact resistance is needed).
Outside of steel even metals we often consider resistant to corrosion like chrome plated parts or aluminium parts will corrode given the right conditions. We do a lot of under water testing at my works, and although we aren't testing the materials themselves so I don't claim to be an expert on that aspect, it doesn't take an expert to notice damned near every metal we use will degrade in some way; rust, pit, leave a white residue, leave a black residue, etc.
Btw I have worked in engineering in the UK, for a company that produced Jet Engine parts. It was not uncommon for them to order from china and sell as their own. (wont be naming names) So I still stand by locale of purchase not counting for diddly (I was the poor sap with the micrometer and the plug gauges saying this stuff is gak dont sell it and being ignored although this company no longer exists so no worries )
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/02/03 21:11:19
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
Btw I have worked in engineering in the UK, for a company that produced Jet Engine parts. It was not uncommon for them to order from china and sell as their own. (wont be naming names) So I still stand by locale of purchase not counting for diddly (I was the poor sap with the micrometer and the plug gauges saying this stuff is gak dont sell it and being ignored although this company no longer exists so no worries )
True enough, where you buy doesn't matter - but where they buy from often does. You noticed it yourself with your micrometer. I notice it every time I go to do a site survey. When I spec out duct work, impellers, motors or other industrial items - I give them a list of acceptable suppliers with my guarantee. They can often save a bit of money on buying from other sources - but I won't be able to verify that those other sources will get the job done (or in the case of things like duct work and piping - last more than a few years). Often times, the headline notes on the product are what are read (stainless steel, 16" material handling impeller, 5 HP electric motor...). When it actually goes into use though, that stainless steel rusts out or fatigues at the joints, the impeller is unbalanced so it doesn't run at maximum efficiency, the motor is capable of a theoretical 5 HP...but the bearings are so wonky it is lucky to make 3 HP...
It is as much at the feet of the manufacturers (who more often then not are in China) as it is at the feet of the company who is selling them (for not creating and enforcing rigid specifications on their suppliers). But, that is often the case when they out source. The people who know what matters often do not make the cut, and purchasing agents couldn't tell you the difference between an induction or universal motor.
It is weird, I have used chinese ball bearings without problems or rust, except for one case. I recently discovered that the ball bearing in my Vallejo game air Squid Pink has started to rust. From now on I will start using glass beads... The question is if I should remove the ball bearings from the bottles with no problems. Right now I am thinking that I should just leave them where they are.
thats quite a difference, I noticed bearing quality in my skateboarding days as a youth, but they never varied quite that much. It looks like he's compared one polished to abec 3 standards to one thats off the charts.
That speaks more of craftsmanship than quality of steel. As we (I atleast) are aware the Germans are rightfully proud of their precision engineering skillzors. (I really really love my Harder & Steenbeck airbrush, would never ever look back at a badger tbh)
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
I added medium to all of my paints, I mixed up a bottle of distilled (important as its for long term storing) water, with flow aid, drying retarder, matt medium and airbrush medium (all liquitex additives for me)
Hi HairySticks,
What ratio's do you use in the above mix?
I'm in the process of transferring my GW paints to dropper bottles too and would appreciate your advice on this.
I get a bottle, throw in a few glass beads and half fill with distilled water, add some liquitex airushing medium, liquitex matt medium, liquitex flow aid and liquitex drying retarder, shake and use.
Its never measured, never exact tbh...
roughly 50% water, 15% airbush medium, 10% airbrush thinner, 10% matte medium, 10% flow improver, 5% drying retarder.
Sometimes I add vallejo airbrush thinner too.
With this bottle, I mix 1 to 1 with the paint on the pallet as I use it, and then some paints still want some water adding for which I use my brush from my water pot to do, some are fine.
Also was added to every bottle to help get the dregs out of the citadel pots and to make it more willing to pour easily.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/07 11:21:08
'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!!
haha