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Lord of skulls seems to be a very good unit to counter Drukhari, who struggle to kill something like the LOS with 28 wounds, T8 and who punches back really hard. We can take one LOS for just 1 CP because of the shared faction bonus.

Both recent CSM winning lists have run one single Lord of Skulls. Whether it goes solo or is part of a death ball with other Daemon Engines. It can definitely be a nasty surprise for some lists who are not prepared to deal with it. The Iron Warrior Deathball can support the LOS with a Lord Discordant and a master of possession, giving it a 2+ to hit, rerolls 1s to hit and wound, a 4++ and exploding 6s on hit. Can very nasty.

Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.

 p5freak wrote:
Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.

Well statistically, 6 raiders shooting at BS 3 at a LOS would have 4 hit. And then only 2 shots would wound because its against T8, and then the LOS gets to activate its 5++ or 4++ (depending on whether had time to get cursed earth up). So against the 4++, only one dark lance out of 6 shots from 6 raiders will get through. This is before the LOS gets to activate the strategem "Iron within iron without" for a 6+++ FNP. A LOS is not that easy to kill for a Drukhari list unless it goes full out Dark lance spam. Its a possible Drukhari list of course, but not exactly the usual meta list we are seeing these days for Drukhari.

 p5freak wrote:
Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.

So how has knights been hiding here ever since 8e? How big LOC is compared to imperial knights?

tneva82 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Or the LOS dies second turn because you didnt go first, and had no chance to activate that 4++ for him. Hiding that large models out of LOS is not possible.

So how has knights been hiding here ever since 8e? How big LOC is compared to imperial knights?

I assume you mean LOS. A lord of skulls is about as big as an Imperial Knight. Both are super heavy units so can't really hide unless there is a really high obscuring terrain on the board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u01NjYH36JI&ab_channel=WarGamesLive

This channel covered the Houston GT live for all 3 days. You get to see that GT winning black legion list in 4 of the games it covered. Very cool. Putting the LOS into strategic reserve is a valid tactic. Expensive in terms of CP, but worth it if you think opponent's shooting is so scary it can kill your LOS quickly.

A lot of his list is forgeworld stuff, but still, being able to win a GT with Abby and a Lord of skulls and playing black legion? The guy is a hero in my eyes. lol

I'm going to be building a Nurgle-themed Night Lords force and I was wondering if anyone else here has played Nurgle-marked Night Lords? My army will have Plague Marines, CSM and possibly Raptors. For HQ's, I'm thinking or taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack with the Unholy Fortitude WL trait and either the Fist of Decay or Stormbolt Plate relic, a Daemon Prince with the Talons of the Night Terror relic, a Sorcerer, and finally a Lord Discordant in a spearhead detachment with the Scourging Chains relic. Any possible advice for putting together and/or running this list?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm going to be building a Nurgle-themed Night Lords force and I was wondering if anyone else here has played Nurgle-marked Night Lords? My army will have Plague Marines, CSM and possibly Raptors. For HQ's, I'm thinking or taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack with the Unholy Fortitude WL trait and either the Fist of Decay or Stormbolt Plate relic, a Daemon Prince with the Talons of the Night Terror relic, a Sorcerer, and finally a Lord Discordant in a spearhead detachment with the Scourging Chains relic. Any possible advice for putting together and/or running this list?

So are you souping in death guard codex? Or are you actually using the 1W plague marines from the CSM codex?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm going to be building a Nurgle-themed Night Lords force and I was wondering if anyone else here has played Nurgle-marked Night Lords? My army will have Plague Marines, CSM and possibly Raptors. For HQ's, I'm thinking or taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack with the Unholy Fortitude WL trait and either the Fist of Decay or Stormbolt Plate relic, a Daemon Prince with the Talons of the Night Terror relic, a Sorcerer, and finally a Lord Discordant in a spearhead detachment with the Scourging Chains relic. Any possible advice for putting together and/or running this list?

So are you souping in death guard codex? Or are you actually using the 1W plague marines from the CSM codex?

The CSM Plague Marines, though I don't mind souping in DG (I'd prefer to keep it mono-NL). Rumor has it that the CSM 9th codex will be dropping in earl 2022, so I figure I don't have long to wait before everything is two wounds. Also, I just want to see what I can do by painting NL Plague Marines.

I think if you are relying on CSM codex's current infantry units. The 1W is tough to play around. You really have to accept that whatever you throw onto an objective, be it 1W raptors, or cultists or 1W plague marines, will get killed off in your opponen'ts round unless its hidden from his line of sight by some obscuring terrain.

World Eaters sort of get around this by trading units. Their units are so killy they usually reliably kill whatever they charge. So, they uses their units like missiles and trading pieces. Charge one in, kill off whats on the objective, then get shot off in your opponent, its ok, just charge in yet another unit on to the objective again, rinse and repeat.

The key difference is that WE units are more killer than nightlords because they get that +1 attack and they have more strats that support melee.

Nightlord strats seem like they would support terror and morale related play. Except its not reliable, and you will be unlikely to kill off a whole unit by morale. Unless your opponent rolls so badly, even if he fails morale, there is a high chance 1 or 2 models will not flee and remain. This makes it problematic for you because CSM plague marines are not obsec, and neither are raptors.

My advice would be to soup in DG so that you get to play with proper 2W plague marines which are obsec instead of 1W plague marines which are not. Then use your raptor units for doing objectives, disruption and stuff like that. So, Secondaries like Engage on all Fronts, Retrieve Octurus Data.

Don't over rely on your HQ to win the game. They won't no matter how much you kit them out. Because usually they can't play the mission, and no matter how you kit them, they are not going to Solo the opponent army for you. A lot of other codex has HQs which are just as good at fighting, if not better than our CSM codex. Or they can just outright shoot them off the board once the HQ's bodyguard units are shot off, which is actually quite easy to do for CSM because our units are generally so fragile. Like even if you fly in your DP with a unit of 5 Raptors, that;s just 5 wounds at 3++ of which he just needs to shoot off 3 and he can now target your DP.

Competitively, Contemptor Dreads and Decimators with soul burner petards are the way to go. Rely on these two types of vehicles. They are deadly enough such that they will draw enemy fire and they are usually sturdy enough to withstand at least some shooting.

The problem is that these are all forgeworld, so resin (not plastic), expensive and I don't know how easy it is for you to get forgeworld stuff in your area.

If you don't want to rely on forgeworld, then Venom crawlers are cheap 110 points only, and good to run with your Lord Discordant. You can only bring 3 though, and now your list looks more like a daemon engine list than a nightlord list. lol

Helldrakes are another consideration. They go well with nightlord theme. Flying nightmares of terror. Again though, helldrakes alone will not win you the game. They are a disruption unit, not a ball wrecker.

I think what a thematic night lords list will try to do, is to disrupt his opponents every round with stuff like daemon engines, helldrakes, the HQs, while your cheap stuff like cultists, troops, raptors go and do the mission (engage, ROD, etc).

The problem comes with primaries. For a Disruption strategy to be successful, you need to prevent your opponent from scoring primaries, or score a lot of that yourself. You can't expect to score a ton of VP on primaries because your units are too fragile. That means you have to prevent your opponent from scoring primaires. This means you either kill him off the point, or you kill his obsec and throw some of your own obsec on the point.

This means you need some stuff killy enough (in shooting or melee) to kill off his obsec, and you need some obsec of your own to throw on a point. You don't need as much obsec if your elites or fast attack are so killy they can wipe your opponent off the point, but I am not sure we have that. You would need to invest a lot in terms of ranged firepower, or really invest into melee. For a nightlords army whose forte isn't in either one.

Putting obsec troops in Rhinos is one way to do this. Rhinos will protect the troops. You can then move out an obsec troop 3+6 inches onto an objective and take it from your enemy. If you are disrupting enemy shooting with your daemon engines, HQs and helldrakes, he may not prioritise your Rhinos.

Played recently versus tau with my iron warriors and pulled out a crushing victory after turn 1 my havoc's somehow killed a riptide. I thought chaos were bad but wow...tau are abysmal.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Played recently versus tau with my iron warriors and pulled out a crushing victory after turn 1 my havoc's somehow killed a riptide. I thought chaos were bad but wow...tau are abysmal.

Maybe he was just an inexperienced player. Aren't Tau supposed to have all these shield drones protecting their important assets? If he set up his Riptide alone without any shield drones protecting it, then it deserved to die. lol

Then he didnt know how to play tau. When i play against our tau player i have no chance to kill his riptide. It has a 3++ inv, and shield drones around him.

What do ya'all think of the change GW made yesterday to Death to the False Emperor for our Chaos Marines? Now DttFE procs an extra hit for every 6 ya roll against any opponent, even other Chaos Marines.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/


To me it seems like a decent band-aid that will help tide my Chaos Marines over in casual games til we get a new codex. It's better than a kick in the head at any rate.


Night Lords, "The quick and the dead."

Tallarn Commander wrote:
What do ya'all think of the change GW made yesterday to Death to the False Emperor for our Chaos Marines? Now DttFE procs an extra hit for every 6 ya roll against any opponent, even other Chaos Marines.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/


To me it seems like a decent band-aid that will help tide my Chaos Marines over in casual games til we get a new codex. It's better than a kick in the head at any rate.


Night Lords, "The quick and the dead."

Nope.
1 W glass cannon army.
CSM never had issues killing things, especially for melee there's plethora more than enough damage. Just doing more damage is not the problem and will not really help out.
its a nice buff for flawless host i guess tho... even more blendery than it already was, but yeah, 2 wound would've been better.

Just wait for our book to come out. In the mean time, accept that our infantry just isn't tanky and play a list that assumes they will die once they are exposed to fire.

So, play a list that goes for secondaries like ROD, engage on all front. Avoid the center which we have no hope of dominating.

Also, we can play the trading game on the center. Stage berserkers within threat range of the center. Opponent puts something on the center objective, charge a zerker squad onit and clear them out. They shoot it off, or kill it with another charge, then your turn rinse and repeat.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just wait for our book to come out.

I'd argue that a lot of us have been waiting for a Chaos Space Marine Codex since September 2007...

What's the best option for a melee-oriented helbrute? I'm thinking that a fist-scourge combination might be best, with a heavy flamer thrown possibly thrown in. The hammer is the deadliest weapon, but the minus one to hit makes me question it.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
What's the best option for a melee-oriented helbrute? I'm thinking that a fist-scourge combination might be best, with a heavy flamer thrown possibly thrown in. The hammer is the deadliest weapon, but the minus one to hit makes me question it.

Hmm... but why a CSM hellbrute? Our CSM Hellbrutes don't even have the -1 damage that all other faction dreadnaughts have.

A forgeworld dreadnaught has the -1 damage, better weapon options, etc.

Within the CSM GW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
What's the best option for a melee-oriented helbrute? I'm thinking that a fist-scourge combination might be best, with a heavy flamer thrown possibly thrown in. The hammer is the deadliest weapon, but the minus one to hit makes me question it.

Hmm... but why a CSM hellbrute? Our CSM Hellbrutes don't even have the -1 damage that all other faction dreadnaughts have.

A forgeworld dreadnaught has the -1 damage, better weapon options, etc.

Within the CSM GW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.

+1

But if you can't/don't want to field anything else then the Chaos dread I'd also avoid the hammer, except if you can reliably prescience it. But we have way better target for that...

Personally, I find that the CSM Hellbrute are a little too fragile to kit solely for melee. I play TS and EC. And if I can easily go for scourge + fist with TS. I tend to keep it back with my EC. Either with lazcannon + fist or plasma + fist (If I know I'm against marines)

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Within the CSM GW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.

A helbrute benefits from legion traits, is easier to hide than a defiler, and has a smaller footprint. Id argue -1 to to hit from AL is better than smokescreen, because its always on, and doesnt cost a CP. A 5++ isnt needed when the helbrute cant be shot, when its hidden. With two power scourges the helbrute gets 12 attacks on the charge, and with +1 to hit, it scores one additional hit on a 5+. Thats four additional hits. When you roll a 6 for crazed when in melee, you get to do 12 attacks again.

 p5freak wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Within the CSM GW codex, I would argue that a Defiler is better than a hellbrute, unless you are that short on points. a Hellbrute is 110 points. A defiler with a defiler scourge costs 140 points. For just 30 more points, you get 6 more wounds, and a 5++ invul save, and infernal regeneration. Its probably a wash between defiler claw+scourge vs hellbrute fist+scourge. Especially if you can use daemon forge for just 1 CP on the defiler to reroll all hits and wounds, which you can't do on the hellbrute. Not to mention you can actually blow your smoke launchers on your defiler to give it a -1 to hit when you are charging up the board on turn 1 if you wish to.

A helbrute benefits from legion traits, is easier to hide than a defiler, and has a smaller footprint. Id argue -1 to to hit from AL is better than smokescreen, because its always on, and doesnt cost a CP. A 5++ isnt needed when the helbrute cant be shot, when its hidden. With two power scourges the helbrute gets 12 attacks on the charge, and with +1 to hit, it scores one additional hit on a 5+. Thats four additional hits. When you roll a 6 for crazed when in melee, you get to do 12 attacks again.

Still, that's really circumstantial no ?

Always -1 (if at more then 12"). Always hidden (as long as terrains and the state of the game allows for it). 12 attacks on the charge (If they can get there without being shot down) and so on.
5++ and smoke has the merit of being consistent.

I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!

Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.

Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!

Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.

Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.

Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.

New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!

Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.

Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.

Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.

New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.

Lol, you sound like you are sure our new 9th ed codex will actually make us worse ... lol

Its possible that this new death to the false emperor will become our new "trait". While we get +1 attack and +1W baked into our new codex, while having shock assault removed. There will be some points bump, but we should still be lower in cost than a primaris.

Its not a bad place to start. Plus we don't know who else gets changed in the new codex. Maybe they will make Obliterators OP ? Or venomcrawlers, lord discordants or the Lord of skulls OP. Maybe they will release Chosen with a new plastic kit and some OP chaos specific weapon options. Maybe they will release new bike models with new OP chaos weapon options? Maybe they will release new warp talons with a new OP profile ?

Maybe they will release a new Dark Apostle on a bike model with new OP rules so that we can now have smash chaplains like space marines. lol

Maybe they will update all our special characters with new rules that will make them great again? Kharn, Lucious, etc.

Must be optimistic!

You can only stay positive on the post 3.5 merry go round of pain that is each edition before you too become an embittered Veteran of the Long War

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!

Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.

Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.

Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.

New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.

Lol, you sound like you are sure our new 9th ed codex will actually make us worse ... lol

Its possible that this new death to the false emperor will become our new "trait". While we get +1 attack and +1W baked into our new codex, while having shock assault removed. There will be some points bump, but we should still be lower in cost than a primaris.

Its not a bad place to start. Plus we don't know who else gets changed in the new codex. Maybe they will make Obliterators OP ? Or venomcrawlers, lord discordants or the Lord of skulls OP. Maybe they will release Chosen with a new plastic kit and some OP chaos specific weapon options. Maybe they will release new bike models with new OP chaos weapon options? Maybe they will release new warp talons with a new OP profile ?

Maybe they will release a new Dark Apostle on a bike model with new OP rules so that we can now have smash chaplains like space marines. lol

Maybe they will update all our special characters with new rules that will make them great again? Kharn, Lucious, etc.

Must be optimistic!

Maybe I should be more precise.

DttFE will not be as good. Lists built around this will suffer. Because CORE.

Chaos got great rules in Traitor's Hate at the end of 7th edition. Lasted 6 months, then we got 8th.

Not that 8th was bad for CSM, but we seem to get the good rules before they pull out the rugs.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kinda excited to try out the new death to the false emperor. Abbadon just got a pretty decent buff with this. All CSM infantry around him gets to trigger death to the false emperor on 5s now. That's ... pretty scary. And that's against everything now, not just imperium!

Berserkers charging into combat with Abbadon's buff... absolutely sick.

Slanaash terminators with icon of excess fighting around Abaddon ... now essentially have 150% of their total attack.

Yes... but I'm not optimistic this will last.

New Codex in 2022. Can only go downhill.

Lol, you sound like you are sure our new 9th ed codex will actually make us worse ... lol

Its possible that this new death to the false emperor will become our new "trait". While we get +1 attack and +1W baked into our new codex, while having shock assault removed. There will be some points bump, but we should still be lower in cost than a primaris.

Its not a bad place to start. Plus we don't know who else gets changed in the new codex. Maybe they will make Obliterators OP ? Or venomcrawlers, lord discordants or the Lord of skulls OP. Maybe they will release Chosen with a new plastic kit and some OP chaos specific weapon options. Maybe they will release new bike models with new OP chaos weapon options? Maybe they will release new warp talons with a new OP profile ?

Maybe they will release a new Dark Apostle on a bike model with new OP rules so that we can now have smash chaplains like space marines. lol

Maybe they will update all our special characters with new rules that will make them great again? Kharn, Lucious, etc.

Must be optimistic!

Maybe I should be more precise.

DttFE will not be as good. Lists built around this will suffer. Because CORE.

Chaos got great rules in Traitor's Hate at the end of 7th edition. Lasted 6 months, then we got 8th.

Not that 8th was bad for CSM, but we seem to get the good rules before they pull out the rugs.

I don't get it. Most infantry are core if you look at the space marines book. Sterngard veterans are core in SM, so why would Chosen not be core? Devastators are Core , so Havocs should be Core too. Vanguard Veterans are Core as well. Assault jumppack squads are Core, so our raptors will be Core too. And even in the Tsons and DG codex, terminators and cult marines are Core. So, our elite infantry will probably all get Core.

Why does CORE come into the discussion when interacting with DttFE? I really don't understand. Most of the units we want in melee will likely have Core.

Also abby’s Buff to dttfe doesn’t stack with icon of excess they both change the value that triggers dttfe to 5+

Any suggestions on a noise marines army list with a bunch of keepers of secrets? Want to have a very thematic looking 2k list

warpedpig wrote:
Any suggestions on a noise marines army list with a bunch of keepers of secrets? Want to have a very thematic looking 2k list

There’s 2 ways to go with this. Put points aside for summoning (unreliable, except word bearers dark pact strategem may be able to help with that). Alternatively, dump cp into a second daemon detachment (probably that command detachment of HQ’s). This way you can take emperor’s children. I think they still get noise bois as troops. And possibly sonic dreads? The rule of cool though may override all the competitiveness you are losing in either case and I applaud you for that. On the flip side if you get a 20 man blob of tooled up noise marines to endless cacophany and stack veterans of the long war on top you should be able to delete a lot of what you come up against. Toss a lord or prescience sorcerer and you e got a fearsome Death Star. Note how I didn’t talk about the keepers. Because all I know is they are psykers and can probably punch things really well.