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As you can tell, the Spindown Life Counters are made so as to be able to just tap the die, and spin the counter so as to tell the life total; Ergo, it literally has all the high numbers on one end and the lower numbers on the other. Naturally a D20 is randomized.

I have other things I need to worry about than buying dice I might not need though, so I was just wondering if there was a huge advantage to using one (Assuming I give it a good shake and am not just using it to cheat (i.e. ensuring to drop it on the high side/low side).

Not that I know of, but I will do some tests and get back to you.

Sweet, thanks man

IIRC spindowns have a tendency to roll higher due to the fact that all the high numbers are in one hemisphere, resulting in uneven weight distribution. I used them in one game and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but this is hardly a scientific test and a sample size of one game isn't particularly rigorous.

In theory, it should still be pretty random if rolled fairly. The balance will be marginally different, but it's unlikely to significantly impact on the fairness.

However, Infinity will regularly call for rolling four dice at once (with five at once not that uncommon and six not impossible), so unless you have a mess of Life Counters around, you may just want to buy a set of D20s anyway.

 MarcoSkoll wrote:
In theory, it should still be pretty random if rolled fairly. The balance will be marginally different, but it's unlikely to significantly impact on the fairness.

However, Infinity will regularly call for rolling four dice at once (with five at once not that uncommon and six not impossible), so unless you have a mess of Life Counters around, you may just want to buy a set of D20s anyway.

I've gone to about 25+ Magic Prereleases, and you get a Spindown counter for each of them :/

Buy D20s. The distribution is going to be different.

Since it sounds like no one's really sure, I'd say it's not worth opening yourself up to potential controversy .

Also, buying six standard 20-sided dice isn't exactly breaking the bank, nor taking up that much space.

 Slarg232 wrote:


As you can tell, the Spindown Life Counters are made so as to be able to just tap the die, and spin the counter so as to tell the life total; Ergo, it literally has all the high numbers on one end and the lower numbers on the other. Naturally a D20 is randomized.

On a standard D20 opposite side add up to 21, just like a D6 adds up to 7. I'd just pay the 10-20 cents to get standard D20.

Persoanlly I wouldnt play agaisnt someone with a spindown dice. Not to be a arse, but its not like we are rolling gold. If my opponenet can afford to play infinity, they can afford to take the time and spend the buck to get some D20s.

Noir wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


As you can tell, the Spindown Life Counters are made so as to be able to just tap the die, and spin the counter so as to tell the life total; Ergo, it literally has all the high numbers on one end and the lower numbers on the other. Naturally a D20 is randomized.

On a standard D20 opposite side add up to 21, just like a D6 adds up to 7. I'd just pay the 10-20 cents to get standard D20.

For most normal dice, opposite sides add up to X+1, where X is the number of sides. The d6, for example, all opposite sides add to 7. On a D8, it's 9, on a d10 it's 11, d12 it's 13. D20s as noted are 21 and d30 (largest I have) is 31.

The influence on randomization will be infinitesimal. Some companies used to give overblown presentations about dice randomness with corners, and facings, etc. But for most gaming purposes, it won't matter.

I would be a little hesitant to allow this in anything but a casual game with a friend, because while the effect on randomness may not be noticeable having all the high numbers on one side would make fudging the roll by slight of hand easier (since you only have to get the die to land on one hemisphere rather than a specific number). Admittedly Infinity doesn't have this as such a big deal since you have the "roll up to but not above" mechanic, but still better safe than sorry.

That said, I'm guessing a lot of opponents won't notice the difference.

There's two problems the way I see it; it's easier to weight a spin down and a limp roll with a spin down can be a way of aiming for a particular number instead of just laziness.

When playing with spin-downs I'd personally be more than OK (it takes a special kind of poor loser to weight dice) as long as people roll vigorously.

The arguments about the dice' balance are moot, in my opinion, since the quality of the dice are bad to begin with.

If you're playing with buddies in your garage, probably not going to be a big deal. If you play at a game shop, even with other regulars, I'd recommend spending a few dollars on some proper D20s. It's just better for it to never be a concern, for a few dollars you skip the "is it fair, is it balanced" issue entirely

There technically isn't a mathematical difference in terms of rolling a random number compared to regular dice. However because of the way the numbers are placed, there is a higher statistical chance that you can roll higher more frequently as well as having a bit of control over your rolls, lending to it to be lopsided. A person could consistently lop the dice to get it to land on a high number because of how the numbers are stacked.

Amongst friends that doesn't really matter usually. Even in a game shop it wouldn't really matter providing everyone is using those same dice. If you are the only person rolling them, they are using their own then it becomes more of a possible issue. If you plan on doing any real tournament play, they won't be allowed at all.

The dice in the Operation Ice Storm are role-playing dice. That's what CB has selected for the game.
So that is what is legal.
I ban any MtG « Spindown Life Counters » (notice the semantics - they are not calling it a die) in my events and I refuse to play against them in casual games whether its Infinity, Dark Ages, D&D or any other game the uses d20s.

Its not like 5d20 cost a fortune... ;-)

To be fair, the spindowns are nice looking dice with snazzy MTG set logos in place of the 20's. I considered using them but found the distribution to be different.

I got some game science dice after realising that my cheap-o d20s were rolling erratically

I have no problem with it tbh. Especially if you already have a ton of them. Only casino dice are "perfect" in terms of weight & balance anyway so it wouldn't bother me.

I've started doing some tests; I don't have nearly enough rolls to be scientific about a statement just yet but the general impression I get is that the MTG life counters roll high by comparison to the Icestorm dice and the D&D dice. I'd be fine playing against someone using spindowns, mostly because it means they'd never hit me.

I use them. But when I use them both sides do, and we give it a good roll. Also I don't play tournaments and such. Also quite new to Infinity and those were the D20s I had avavible.
I remember reading somewhere that yes there is a slight difference in randomness if rolled fairly. But that chance is very small and in it would take a lot of dice rolls to notice any difference. Something like almost 10000 rolls I think.
I don't think that is what is the problem for most people. I think that a person can more easily influence the roll if higher numbers are stacked in the same close area.

There WAS a player DQ'd here for using them in a tournament (and there was much nerdrage about him doing so). He ended up leaving the hobby over it (he had been one of our veteran infinity players in this country, behind it from the early days).

The players even stated they would boycott any event he ran in future (even though if he ran the event, he wouldn't be playing in it?).

While I stated earlier I was against using them in any game beyond the most casual of friends, that's one of the biggest overreactions I've ever heard of . That is absolutely ridiculous levels of overreaction. There has to be a lot more to that story than merely using a spindown dice instead of a regular one

I think I'm going to have to call my initial impressions confirmation bias. As long as you give the spindown a good shake before rolling it there isn't really a difference, it is theoretically possible to roll it really wrong and aim for a high or low result but it's really easy to tell when someone's trying for it.

Bottom line: No statistically significant difference that I can determine. Someone with more dice and more time may be able to find one, I can't.