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Ok, this is a little bit of a vent/rant for me. So apologies up front for that.

First for those that don't know me, a little background:

I've been painting for over 25 years, as a professional service for the last 6 (and a few times here and there before).
I've done competition (golden demon winning standard - by this I mean I came 2nd to the sword), studio (box and publicity work) as well as a large number of private commissions.
I'm pretty open about the techniques I use, the time I take, and I communicate prolifically.

So anyway, yesterday I get an email:

Client wrote:
Hi guys,
I am looking for a price on a army of tau empire in a high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet.

The models I'm looking to paint is...

1) tau ethereal
1) battle suit commander
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total
2) kroot squads 24 models total
1) unit of 10 path finders
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3
3) broadsides
1) riptide
11) drones
2) hammerheads
1) unit of 3 stealth suits

So, a big job then - near 60 infantry, a half-dozen character level jobs, plus a fair few battle suits, tanks etc. And to high standard. I crank the numbers and reckon it'll be sitting a way north of 500 hours on first estimates.

I used to get involved doing an item-by-item breakdown on enquiries like this. More often than not this led to no response from the client, so these days I throw out a quick estimate of turnaround time and total cost before putting out a firm quote (that I stick to regardless of if things slip).

In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+). Making an approximate hourly rate of £6.95 / $10. So, dirt cheap really, but for what I do it seems to be close to the competitive mark. I spread this over 6-9 months to allow higher paying jobs to keep cash flowing.
If the client doesn't run off at that, I usually tweak up the hourly rate when preparing the firm quote to something more reasonable if they're wanting a specific timescale, or leave it low if it's a 'whenever' job that I can do other work around.

Ballpark figure goes out to the client - £4,000 - £4,200 not including model or shipping costs, 6month+ turnaround, lead time of at least 6 months, probably not until Christmas (I'm very busy right now).

And I get:

Client wrote:
Good god no!!! How did you workout that price? That's crazy... Thanks but no thanks.

So how did I work out the price? Experience and math. Not rocket science, not magic, and not by having a root round up my... it's left me annoyed to be honest, more so than the usual zero response. And it's probably a low estimate by the time people start talking about extra freehand or decal design work, oddball basing...

It seems that there's a common reckoning that commission studios should do intense, skilled work for far below what their workers could get painting a wall, or flipping burgers or possibly there's a misconception on the amount of work involved?

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

I guess their cabinet had solid, opaque doors?

I guess that the majority of people have no real idea how long it takes to paint and then to a high enough standard to be considered presentation worthy.

Dude, I've always enjoyed your work and your input about painting. Don't ruin your rep for being a good professional by venting about a single idiot.

I feel you though, in my line of work I estimate jobs and present it to potential clients. Sometimes it's amazing how little people value a skilled professional doing the work for them. I always consider a job Idon't get as confirmation that some people just can't afford me. Not everybody wants Wal-mart quality work though so chin up!

Aye, probably shouldn't vent, but sometimes you have to just to keep sane. :-p I'll keep it rare.

From the service side, it's tricky to judge market values in this industry though - nobody really puts out fixed prices / hourly rates - every job is different, and every service will do something faster, some slower, and vary in style as well as standard. Far too many variables at play.

For a client, you just need to think about roughly how much time is involved- a good rule of thumb is around 3 hours per infantry model, 8 for characters, and multiply that for larger models based on surface area. Then figure on a painter wanting to get a half decent hourly rate on that.

I think it's because you do something others would love to do themselves if they had the talent, so even if they have thought about how long a given project would take (and they probably haven't) they assume you'll do it cheap because you enjoy it, and don't think about the fact it is your job, and you need to charge accordingly. That guy was probably thinking 'If I could do it, I'd charge a tenner each, so call it a grand tops ...'.

I don't think a quick rant on here will make those who know your work think any less of you either

You're not their mate painting their army for the love of it, but I think some people assume that commissions will be priced as such. If you go cheap you risk getting a BTP job.

I was once offered material costs + a bottle of beer for a scratch-build that took me from dawn to dusk to make. Good deal.

Apparently the client here has 2 companies offering to turn around (build and paint) the project in 3 months (not impossible, but would certainly require dedicating more studio space than I would be comfortable with), at 1/8 the cost (so about £500 / $750).

For over 80 models, including several large vehicles, battlesuits etc.

Good luck with that and I think you'll be disappointed, says I.

This here illustrates a point that's quite important - there are services that offer this sort of pricing; but from what I can tell they tend to be new, untested and very often poor quality.

There are a few that do great work at very low cost for what you get (SE Asia / Malaysia, Poland, Ukraine, Russia), but more and more these places look to charge living wage for where their client base is (generally US / Western Europe) rather than where they themselves are. Fair play, that's a free market economy for you.

Dangerosly, in many cases though, underquoting services are actually not services or companies at all - they're a single kid with a website. You can look forward to your booking competing with school, college, and parents telling the kid to go out and get a life. The usual sign of this is someone charging way under living wage - if you're looking at paying pocket money to someone, chances are they're actually just looking for pocket money, which begs the question how do they live?

I'm kind of left shaking my head that the client's seeming to refuse to think about what they're actually asking for.

i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

I know someone who was quoted by a friend to paint a baneblade for $150 (for a very high quality job) and he said "dear god! no way I would pay that much" He later sai he thought it would be about $25 for a regular tank and maybe $50 for a baneblade.

I think a lot of it comes down to peoples perception of the value of time. You are fighting the price in the UK of course but no one can expect you to compete with price in China.

I think skilled labor is something not a lot of people understand. At the end of the day they are paying for your untold hours of practice and experience.

I can have a local band come play at my party for dirt cheap, but it would cost quite a bit more to have Prince come out for a night.

 tenebre wrote:
i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

The artist Phil Foglio has a pricing matrix for his custom art with ..

1.Size
2. Detail
3. Price

The customer gets to pick two..

I know that I am guilty of one time or another thinking "wow, that is really expensive" when seeing a price list at a commission service.

But when I think of it, this is as it should be. As you say, I think most people who paint walls earn quite a bit more per hour than miniature painters :( This makes me really sad. Sure you can forget sometime, but when you actually go ask for a quote you need to think this through.

If I would ask for a quote on a commission I think I would start with something like "how long would it take me" x "how much would I like to charge per hour" giving you a ballpark. And I am pretty sure the quote you get will almost always be lower than the number you come up with yourself.

 tenebre wrote:
i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

I know someone who was quoted by a friend to paint a baneblade for $150 (for a very high quality job) and he said "dear god! no way I would pay that much" He later sai he thought it would be about $25 for a regular tank and maybe $50 for a baneblade.

I think a lot of it comes down to peoples perception of the value of time. You are fighting the price in the UK of course but no one can expect you to compete with price in China.

For a high end tabletop quality Baneblade, I'd be looking at charging £450 / 3 week turnaround ballpark. It's a big beastie with a lot to do on it. Pushing to competition grade and £1000+ is easily reachable.

I had a j-hole once trying to get me to paint daemons, i gave him dirt cheap estimates, far below even you, cause its still a hobby for me and it was gonna be mostly drybrush and washes anyway. Once we'd worked out prices and logistics and all that, he drops that he wants to pay in unopened boxes of daemons, and that he figured itd be fair to just consider the box prices equivalent payment instead of cash.

Some people are morons.

There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible. Henry Ford said this and he meant it.

The sad part is that the vast majority of companies nowadays are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Most people do not understand that quality is something you pay for. I know the vast majority of people drop their jaws when I explain to them that in all actuality I get paid right around $50 an hour for what I do. Problem being that I bring so many certifications to the table that it is not even funny. Honestly I have about 50% of my certs in my wallet at all times (really only carry the ones most asked for) and I can not carry any money in said wallet.

If you do quality work, you can get paid for it. It sounds like you know how to paint much better than I and you should get paid better for it. I am not willing to do commissions because I feel that my work is not worthy of it, oddly enough I do get people that ask me to do work for them. To reiterate, if they understood what is actually involved with the work, they would be better prepared to pay a higher price for better quality.

 Genoside07 wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

The artist Phil Foglio has a pricing matrix for his custom art with ..

1.Size
2. Detail
3. Price

The customer gets to pick two..

Heh. This is a take on the construction adage: "We do 3 kinds of work here. You get to pick one. Good, Cheap, and Quick. "

Well, we all have grown up to China sweatshop prices.
Unreasonable expectations of low price are the norm.
Heck, at $10 an hour I would say it is a deal.
Showing an example cabinet grade model with 4 hours, assemble, file, prime and paint.
The person who ticked you off either wanted it almost free or envisioned their own "block painting" as your standard.
Having your skills devalued is infuriating, that is the risk when hobby becomes work and meets customers.
Feel good in knowing "that guy" will not get what he wants in the end.

I think it's just a matter of "sticker shock." In the original example, the army itself only costs, what, about 10-15% of the quoted painting price? That's probably what was going through the customer's mind.
I do think most people realize that a good paintjob costs more, but I don't think they realize how much time goes into it, and time is the real cost.

I'm going to try to play devils advocate here and, probably end up offending half the forum.

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

I've often had a look around the gallery or blogs etc and seen models that people have labelled as 'tabletop quality' and thought, "yeah, eff that, I'd only ever practically see one guy in a busy GW, or a 1 guy per games system at a club that'd paint even remotely near that 'tabletop standard.'

I've seen Winterdyne's work before and yeah, it's awesome, amazing, gorgeous, a work of art. But, I think, there's a lot of people out there who don't need works of art. Those that'd be really quite happy with a base painting marginally better than a typical overenthusiastic 12 year olds and then some Army Painter Dip to really set the models off.

I just think that not only is there a gulf between the Artist and the Masses like you're all saying, but that it actually works both ways.

I don't think you'll offend anyone, in fact, I'd go so far as to say as that's what the likes of BTP are already doing, and if they were honest and upfront about what they were offering, both with themselves and their customers, there would probably be a lot less ill feeling circulating about them right now.

There is nearly always a market for a budget version of anything that exists as a premium item, the potential for conflict is only present when there's a disconnect between expectations and results, either in this case, where the standard on offer was likely in reality far higher than the customer thought, or in the case of the recent CD BTP thread, where the results fell somewhat short of what the customer had been sold.

There might very well be a difference between what's being asked and what's offered. but then again, if you don't specify what you mean exactly by "high quality" then the painter will have to fill that blank in himself.

To be honest, when I first started looking into commission work I was a bit turned of by the prices aswell. Ofcourse then I started calculating the time it would take me to paint stuff and most seem pretty reasonable.

For what's in the top post, even BTP at bargin paint prices would be asking twice what the custermer said they have a quote for. 750$ gets what. 33 mins a mini max at minimum wage ? Not including paint, brushes, water cup.
At that price do they even want them Nicly prepared, taking it outside and spraying them all could take a hour or 2 at a rush pace :0

That price is cutting it real low, even lower than bargain prices.

I myself as others have had commission painting, and at $20 a mini my painter was pushed for spead over quality.

Perhaps it would be good to include some samples of your idea of "display cabinet quality" with your response.

As others have said, the client's idea and your idea of high quality may be miles apart.

Just out of curiosity, did you reply to his second email?

I had my army commissioned because I am a teacher - and rarely have time (if any at all) to paint any of my minis. He is a friend, so for about 33 bikes, some vehicles, and some other things, he just charged me model price.

Paid him, absolutely happy with the project - but of course got slightly irritated when a kid asked me how much did that cost you, and then gave a me a number so far below what I paid it actually upset me.

There is a huge misconception between time and money - I guess that as you get older that misconception disappears. I know that I get paid as a teacher roughly 100 a day (making it easy), so that is about $14 an hour...... it would make sense that some one putting in a lot of work into painting gets paid that much.

But again, that is our reality, vs. those who have had people pay things for them :/

Now that being said - one more thing that pisses me off about what that person told winterdyne is the time limit. I had ample amounts of time to put away money for the commission he painted (for easy maths, lets say it was $1000, and it was a 5 month long commission, thats $200 a month to put away... really not that much).

Sorry for the rant... its just annoying to hear this

fidel wrote:


There is a huge misconception between time and money - I guess that as you get older that misconception disappears. I know that I get paid as a teacher roughly 100 a day (making it easy), so that is about $14 an hour...... it would make sense that some one putting in a lot of work into painting gets paid that much.

Hits in on the head for me, right here.

I'm a decent painter, so I wouldn't ever commission someone that paints below my 'normal' standard. Just wouldn't do it. But I also know high quality painters are expensive because they're A) talented, and B) have the time to dedicated to doing high level painting that I, quite frankly, don't have the time or ability at present to do (because, as we all know, to increase ability it requires time!).

I expect to pay $40+ for a single character mini if I'm going to get something commissioned, and the $40 is probably low.

Based on what I've seen of your work, Winterdyne, I certainly think your time is more valuable than $10 an hour. Please don't let idiots like that discourage you.

I can't speak from a painting perspective, since I'm a sculptor, but I've noticed in the last year a lot of people I talk to about prospective commissions seem to have a lower and lower expectation of what it will cost.

Digital sculpting and 3D printing has had an obvious effect, most digital sculptors I know don't charge nearly as much as traditional sculptors.

I once had someone contact me to sculpt a custom Terminator Marine Captain for his army, sent me all the artwork to use as reference and wanted a "Forge World Level of quality" and then balked when I quoted him $700 for it. I should have charged him $1000 but I liked his ideas and thought it was a cool project. Oh, and he wanted it in 2 weeks so he could get it pro-painted for a tournament.

That isn't an isolated case. I get that 2-3 times a month.

There was an interesting post by Tom Meier about cost and supply&demand, if I can find it I'll update this post with a link.

Maybe the commission painting aspect of the hobby is now being affected in the same manner? There are now so many commission painters offering services that clients have more choice so from their perspective costs should be lower.

There needs to be more research by clients and more understanding that though commission painting looks like it's just an extension of your hobby, it's a job.

"Speed, quality, cost: pick two" applies to any kind of skilled labor. I've seen it on this board in comission painting discussions, I've seen it on an armouring board I frequented for many years, and I have to actively restrain myself from hammering it into potential customers that come to my counter looking to frame their artwork. I fully believe that a large part of the issue is simple ignorance on the client's end. This isn't comparison shopping for identical items from an established brand - there's no simple baseline estimate for cost. I could try to explain that what they think is a fair price barely covers the material costs. I could send them to any competitor with a detailed description of their desired design and tell them to ask for a quote. In the end, though, they have a set value in their mind and there's little changing that, regardless of how unrealistic it may be.

I explain to them what they're getting and what it costs - they can take it or leave it (in a somewhat less brusque manner, of course - I'd like to keep my job ). If they need to lower costs, we need to pare back the design. If they need it faster, they either have to pay for expedited shipping of materials or buy something off the shelf. Oh, you'll just go somewhere else? Be my guest - our main competitor farms out their framing and takes even longer and the local galleries charge even more (as expected - they have more of the 'fine arts' mystique and don't benefit as much from the economy of scale). Sometimes, you just have to shake your head and wait for those gems that have been around the block and know that what you're charging is fair, whether your quote is for construction, custom framing, or a model painting comission. Being that you (and others like you) have done business before, I'd say those customers exist.

TLDR: I feel for you.

This is one of the reasons I stopped trying to offer higher quality painting. I rather spend 40 hours assembling and painting 80 miniatures for $600 then 10 in the same amount of time $200. Those 80 miniatures are not going to showcase level and my clients understand that. Once the price per miniature goes over $10 for a standard infantry model expectations skyrocket. I go for a basic clean tabletop standard, something that will look like good at about 4' away. If someone wants better I direct them elsewhere.

Being able to balance time and quality is really what makes a successful commission painter. Aaron Lovejoy of Guild painting service held a seminar on Commission painting at LVO. He brought up a really good point that you are only getting paid when you are putting paint on a model everything else is not making the painter money. All the other things need to be factored into the painting cost like packing and shipping, Photography,communication, etc.

 Compel wrote:
I'm going to try to play devils advocate here and, probably end up offending half the forum.

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

I've often had a look around the gallery or blogs etc and seen models that people have labelled as 'tabletop quality' and thought, "yeah, eff that, I'd only ever practically see one guy in a busy GW, or a 1 guy per games system at a club that'd paint even remotely near that 'tabletop standard.'

I've seen Winterdyne's work before and yeah, it's awesome, amazing, gorgeous, a work of art. But, I think, there's a lot of people out there who don't need works of art. Those that'd be really quite happy with a base painting marginally better than a typical overenthusiastic 12 year olds and then some Army Painter Dip to really set the models off.

I just think that not only is there a gulf between the Artist and the Masses like you're all saying, but that it actually works both ways.

You won't offend anyone. There's a service that advertises here for quick and cheap "table top" quality minis.

And there's zero wrong with that at all if you're up front about it. THe problem becomes when you charge premium rates for ever so slightly better than table-top with lots of inconsistencies (different shades of red, details done on one mini in a unit, but not others, etc).

Honestly, i've thought about using the table top service myself, as i paint well, but very slowly. If i used that service i could get all my basecoating done delivered to me, and i could spend my time doing the detail work.