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Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Greenville, South Carolina

I was thinking about armies that dont fight each other but if they did which one would win and this thought occurred to me. The Borg are a highly intelligent and adaptive race, i do not know the extent of their adaptive abilities but i do know that they had to go into different dimensions to find an opponent that was a challenge. The Imperium is full of a bunch of brave people and finish things by pure will stubbornness and overwhelming firepower. So if these two civilizations each at the height of their power came against each other who would win.
   
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Neither,
Batman with prep time
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




http://radbot.net/pix/729.jpg

Wasn't DS9 used as a lynchpin against an invasion of the borg? ... well yeh - just compare DS9 to a standard imperial battleship.

Even a borg cube would have nothing on that.

   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

Imperium. Borg might be able to mop up a planet or two, or pick off unwary ships/small fleets, but the military might the Imperium can bring to bear is just off the scale compared to the Star Trek universe.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Alienoid wrote:
The Borg are a highly intelligent


Explicitly no. The Borg show extremely inflexible brute force thinking in all of their appearances.

and adaptive race


They adapt their shields and they absorb stolen technology, but again they really aren't capable of anything that resembles creativity.

Are you aware that all they'd need to have done to win in Best of Both Worlds or First Contact... Is send a small fleet instead of one cube?

, i do not know the extent of their adaptive abilities but i do know that they had to go into different dimensions to find an opponent that was a challenge. The Imperium is full of a bunch of brave people and finish things by pure will stubbornness and overwhelming firepower. So if these two civilizations each at the height of their power came against each other who would win.


Assimilation is somewhat dependent on how similar the tech base is. The majority of Trek species have fairly comparable tech to one another, giving them a good chance to take things over quickly. Humanity maybe, but I don't fancy their chances assimilating Eldar or Necron tech without a long time to work on the problem, or on a related note: Tyranids given that the immune systems of species 8472 were explicitly a problem for them.

Really though, their only chance here is to use their more reliable FTL tech to hit soft targets and build up a fleet of assimilated and borgified ships. Do they have the tactical ability to do so? Noooooooo.

Also, in a straight up fight they'd be pretty hopeless. Shambling zombie drones, It took Lore siezing control of a small collective for drones to bother taking firearms, and their shielding has never been shown to resist physical trauma.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Greenville, South Carolina

so according to what changemod said the best way to beat the borg would be to hope they dont get smarter and hit them with clubs untill they die and hope you dont get probed hehe, i thought that one borg or just a couple by themselves were not very intelligent but a couple hundred were very intelligent because of the combined data imput about the opponent they are facing
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Imperium for sure.

Void shields can't be bypassed as they use a weird trans-dimensional shift to deflect incoming attacks. if the pathetic shielding the Federation uses can hold for a short period than Voids would be impenetrable.

Borg cubes also lose their size advantage when fighting the Imperium as every one of their ships is roughly a similar size. Federation, and other ST weaponry, can't cope with a target that size, but Imperial ships are designed to take on targets of that scale. So while Borg ships are capable of sustaining small scale damage by repairing quickly, they wouldn't be able to keep up with the large scale damage Imperial weaponry would inflict.

Battleships have weapons explicitly designed to bombard planetary scale targets, nobody in ST has weapons that can do that.


Borg personal shields are also not capable of stopping solid projectiles, which are used almost as often as energy based weaponry.

Borg Cubes would also be vulnerable to Teleportation attacks and boarding torpedoes. Its proven that Borg cannot react quickly to changing battlefield conditions and a boarding party would quickly wreak havoc on the internal systems. And they wouldn't be crippled by curiosity or desire to negotiate. The reason Imperial teleportation wouldn't be stopped is because it isn't actual teleportation and really utilizes a small wormhole through the Warp, while Star Trek uses actual teleportation which involves a beam of energy between points A and B.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Clubs? ORRRRR... Autoguns, boltguns, autocannons, heavy bolters, granade launchers, boltpistols, autopistols, assault cannons, missile launchers, stubguns... etc.
   
Made in es
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






Borg invasion?

Free servitors for all!!!



War does not determine who is right - only who is left. 
   
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Remember picard + holosuite + tommygun - safety protocals.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Greenville, South Carolina

hmm this is interesting you learn new things everyday
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

In theory, the borg should be awesome.
In practice they are routinely defeated by the crew of a single, tiny by 40K standards, Federation vessel.

Also remember that the Enterprise and Voyager aren't even really warships. They are primarily exploration vessels. The entire Star Trek Universe is pretty crap at building warships.

A single Ork Waaagh could wipe any Star Trek race off the map.

Hell most ships in the 40K universe could simply ram anything in the Star Trek universe and keep flying through like nothing happened.

Tyranids, as someone else pointed out would likely be an issue for assimilation, and would merely swallow borg cubes whole and digest them.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Star Trek universe, but it's not geared for Warfare on a scale that occurs in the 40K, or even Star Wars, universe.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/08 19:33:11


   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I tremble to think what orks would do if they captured a Borg cube.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Borg have a lot of processing power avaliable to them, but seem inefficient at using it. They always go for the bluntest, most minimal solution and lose because they didn't bring enough firepower to cope when someone comes up with a creative solution to dealing with them.

Heck, both times they tried to invade earth? They sent one cube. Both times they absolutely devastated the fleets defending against them and could have won just by sending three cubes to make sure with prudent overkill. Only when confronted in their home territory will they respond in numbers.

Going by Borg behaviour on the show, it might be best to think of each Cube as a "citizen" of the Borg collective, with the drones acting more as cells of it's body than anything else.They contribute to the knowlege and processing capacity of the cube, but also generate a lot of "noise" in the form of irrelevant thoughts, feelings and memories that need constant supressing.

The Queens are really more human scale avatars than anything else really. There does seem to be loosened restrictions on them in an attempt to think outside the box though. The time travel last resort for example. (Which abandoned the primary goal of gaining federation technology and replaced it with the secondary goal of retroactively supressing their resistance before they even built the useful technology the Borg really would have preferred to gain.)
   
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




 Grey Templar wrote:
I tremble to think what orks would do if they captured a Borg cube.


They'd probably think of it as just another, if oddly shaped, rok, to smash into a planet of choice.
   
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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Greenville, South Carolina

changemod wrote:


Heck, both times they tried to invade earth? They sent one cube. Both times they absolutely devastated the fleets defending against them and could have won just by sending three cubes to make sure with prudent overkill. Only when confronted in their home territory will they respond in numbers.

)


In the Invasion of the federation space in 2381 they sent 7000 cubes
   
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Posts with Authority






Norn Iron

Poly Ranger wrote:http://radbot.net/pix/729.jpg


Those images are taken from this website. Click on -10x at the top, scroll down to see the imperial battleship, then scroll down to see the borg cube. Ramming speed!

Heck, even the smallest warship the imperium has, the cobra destroyer, is bigger than a romulan warbird.

I'm sooo, sooo sorry.

Plog - Random sculpts and OW Helves 9/3/23 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Alienoid wrote:
changemod wrote:


Heck, both times they tried to invade earth? They sent one cube. Both times they absolutely devastated the fleets defending against them and could have won just by sending three cubes to make sure with prudent overkill. Only when confronted in their home territory will they respond in numbers.

)


In the Invasion of the federation space in 2381 they sent 7000 cubes


EU Novels aren't primary canon.

Still though, the invasion force from that continuity would indeed be a slightly bigger threat. Somewhat more advanced tech, mildly improved tactics and above all, more agressive.

It would probably rip a hole through a small section of the Imperium, simmilar to a fairly large splinter fleet.
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Vermis wrote:
Poly Ranger wrote:http://radbot.net/pix/729.jpg


Those images are taken from this website. Click on -10x at the top, scroll down to see the imperial battleship, then scroll down to see the borg cube. Ramming speed!

Heck, even the smallest warship the imperium has, the cobra destroyer, is bigger than a romulan warbird.


Some of the fighter craft in the Imperium are bigger than a Warbird. At least if you go by the scale of the BFG miniatures.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Greenville, South Carolina

now that i think about it the imperium could just drown the Borg in their craft
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

The trouble with 40K spaceship scales is that they don't add up.

Like the artworkm for titans looming over mountains spaceships have widely varying scales in artwork.

So in order to make the scale of 40K work you need to readjust based on the models and that artwork that fits with the models. The Comic in the BFg boxset does that and makes the Imperial navy far smaller than official stats tally.

Furthermore some artwork, esp[ecially one of the Gaunts Ghosts covers shows a full size transport with blcoks of guardmen and even a few tanks marching down.

You also have some scaling down in the Ultramariens movie which again disagree with official stats.

All in all you can reduce dimensions by a factor of four, so a Lunar cruiser is about the size of a star destroyer, which is still fething big.

This also makes more sense, it also helps because a strike cruiser normally carries one battle company, and while we are sure that isn't storage capacity it does makes sense that a transport for so few men is not several times the size of a star destroyer.

Someone in GW decided to put together abritrary figures for BFg ship sizes at random, because it was kewl to make them the size they officially are.

Nothing about it makes sense, everything is stupidly out of scale, even more so than usual for 40K.

That being said even if you reduced Imperial capital ships to roughly the size of star destroyers they are still way bigger than Star Trek ships, and in any even t the Star Wars galactic empire certainly has bigger stuff and evidently that bigger stuff has more firepower. The Imperium of Man requires specific weapons to inflict Exterminatus, a Star Destroyer can do the same with its broadsides quite quickly, and the Death Star trumps the Planet Killer easily.

As for the Borg, thwey should find Imperial ships easy to assimilate, and due to the entrenched dogma of the Imperium it will be slow to react properly, and this is without such crap as timewarp.

In terms of actual technology the Federation are like the Tau on steroids, and the ability to punch fairly well unlike most Fire Warriors. Their ships might be tiny, but are far more mobile, have working teleporter tech the Imperium can only dream of and just about everyone has a combi melta-stunner which fits in his pocket and gets to shoot all day.
I think they are more advanced than the Imperium but its hard to make a definitive guess.


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

That transport was a shuttle, not an actual space ship as I recall.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That transport was a shuttle, not an actual space ship as I recall.


Found it. Cover of Ghostmaker, they look very similar to Imperial transports for BFG. So they are 'shuttles' now are they? Possibly a retcon interpretation of the artwork. The book cover was out about the same time as BFG and before it was given the current canon dimensions, which don't fit the imagery beyond the John Blanche box cover which was different to everything else.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

"shuttle" meaning an atmospheric transport craft designed to ferry stuff between a ship in orbit and the surface. its not the actual void worthy transport ship.

Those things on the cover are clearly atmospheric transports, not actual transport ships.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

'Clearly', how?

Its not like they look any different or have the word shuttle written on them.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Given that very very few ships can land on planets, a technology that has been lost, it says they're almost assuredly not actual space ships.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

There are a lot of images of spaceships hovering in midair, of various sizes and scales.

There was a massive vessel landed in the 4th edition IG codex, with Creed leading the 8th Cadian.

Now there are also pictures from the pre-Horus heresy era with whole fleets in the atmosphere, though yes that was a very different age. I mention this because the scale fo0r the ships is very different (small rather than large) and th vessels themselves are easily identifiable as Imperial warships.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Greenville, South Carolina

im curious about how they lost the technology to land on planets? i dont doubt you im just curious
   
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I don't think this is the case, also large ships didnt land, they hovering in atmosphere using anti grav drive and relayed people to the surface, though some long boarding ramps are shown from time to time.

Besides the artwork of the 8th Cadian under Creed responding to the ambush by traitor guard with looming vessels in the vbackground is recent in 40K history, from Abaddons 13th crusade.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

In the GK omnibus, when Abaddon's cruiser is hovering in the Atmosphere, its mentioned that the technology for that was lost long ago. Only appearing on the oldest of vessels.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
 
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