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Just hoping to see what other Dakkanauts are running in their scum lists. Scum got me into the game, so I've been pouring over ideas. I've come up with a few (mostly terrible but fun sounding) lists, but I'm sort of stuck on what I see as my more realistic build:

Dace Bonearm [Wingman, Ion Cannon Turret, Greedo] (31)
N’Dru Suhlak [Cluster Missiles, Lone Wolf] (23)
Drea Renthal [Ion Cannon Turret, Unhinged Astromech, BTL-A4 Y-Wing] (28)

82 points, so I have 18 left. Binayre with Assault Missiles? Swap Wingman for something more useful? (Drea can deal with her own Stress?) Binayre with Deadman's and Ion Missiles for Dace?

N'Dru Suhlak does his thing, off on his own. He's a pretty standard fixture I guess.

Drea gets to double tap targets at range 1-2, even if the second shot is Ion. I went with Unhinged over the R4-B11 droid to keep Stress manageable. I threw Wingman onto Dace for this reason also, as I figure the two will be flying close to each other. Greedo is probably much better on a Firespray or something that has more shields than an HWK, but for this build I didn't have the points.

Any thoughts?

I also leave you with a just-for-fun fleet I call "Deadman's Wonderland".

DEADMAN'S WONDERLAND
Z-95 Surprise Swarm! 99 points
PILOTS
N’Dru Suhlak [Cluster Missiles, Lone Wolf] (23)
Kaa’to Leeachos [Concussion Missiles, Veteran Instincts] (20)
Binayre Pirate [Dead Man's Switch] (14) x 4

It's not remotely competitive, but 4 Z-95s packed with Dead Man's Switches? What's not to love?

I've been practicing with variations of this list lately:

IG88-C [Predator, Advanced Sensors, “Hot Shot” Blaster, Autothrusters] (47)

Binayre Pirate [Feedback Array] (14) x 2

Syndicate Thug [Ion Cannon Turret, Unhinged Astromech] (24)

It has wins against Decimator+Soontir, and 2Y4Z Scum, and it got Han/Corran down to 2HP left on Han at time with the Y-Wing still at near full (had only lost 1 shield I believe). It's part of my attempt to play lists with just a single Aggressor. I really wish I could get Kavil in as the Y-Wing, but the Feedback Array is so good I'm not sure I would want to drop it. Toyed with the idea of running 2 Y-Wings as well, but I don't think they pack enough offensive punch.

I've been having some success with:

Boba Fett
Vet Instincts
Engine Upgrade
Gunner
Inertial dampeners

N'dru Suhlak
Lone Wolf
Inertial Dampeners
Cluster Missiles

Syndicate Thug
BTL-A4
Ion Cannon
Unhinged Astromech

By which I mean that I had one win, and one very narrow loss (We ran out of time the turn after Boba died, with me having N'dru, and my opponent having 2 damaged pirate Z-95's). One more turn and I could have killed one of the Z-95's and won. (Grumble).

I find that Scum Boba is an absolute beast at range one, and he has a nice high PS with Vet instincts to hunt down stuff like phantoms. N'dru is a little tricky, but he can be insane if you use him right.

Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.

Well I like thematically plausible lists. I've come up with quite a few but haven't run all that many due to only having 1 night a week to play X wing for 3-4 hours.

Last week I ran Kath Scarlet with Expose and her Binyare Pirates (tested the Y-wing title with blaster turret too which was a mess) and I was not impressed. My flying is not that good, but I never once got the 6 dice off and without experimental interface for a target lock or focus, it sucks.

I did fly Serissu with a HLC in another list and let me be the first to say that it is awesome.

I plan on building a list more centered around her (she's probably my favorite scum pilot for her ability and her role in-universe as I was a long time SWG player before it shut down)

Now it would make more sense to bring Palob Godalhi and N'dru Suhlak as they're the least villainous of the Scum and Villainy but the Star viper and Z95s make much better use of her ability than a HWK and a Lone Wolf-er.

So, I've decided that this week (tonight) I'm going to bring the Underlord of the Black Sun (even though I prefer Guri in-universe and for her pilot ability, that PS is just... atrocious) Prince Xizor and some of his goons in Zs. The list will look like this:

Xizor (Star Viper) 38 points
Veteran Instincts
Autothrusters
Virago
(proxied) Advanced Sensors

Serissu (Scyk) 36 points
Push the Limit
Engine Upgrade
"Heavy Scyk"
Heavy Laser Cannon

Black Sun Soldier (Z95) 13 points x2

normally Serissu flys *against* the Black Sun, not for them, but here I can write it off as mercenary work either because this operation (that the Prince is so invested in that he brings on outside help) takes place pre-Tansarii Point or because Xizor simply has stupid amounts of money that he could buy the galaxy with and could convince anyone to join his side. Money talks.

 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.

Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed with Scums unique ships as well from what I've seen. The Starviper wants to be a bulky arc dodger, but its pilot skill is so low, and its maneuver dial so average, it doesn't look like it would be able to do that. Plus, Prince Xixor wants to fly in formation and let some chump take the hits. The Scyk costs 2 points more than a TIE-Fighter, and has a worse maneuver dial. If "Heavy" Scyk was free, it may have been usable. But as-is, I've got to agree with you on them.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.

Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed with Scums unique ships as well from what I've seen. The Starviper wants to be a bulky arc dodger, but its pilot skill is so low, and its maneuver dial so average, it doesn't look like it would be able to do that. Plus, Prince Xixor wants to fly in formation and let some chump take the hits. The Scyk costs 2 points more than a TIE-Fighter, and has a worse maneuver dial. If "Heavy" Scyk was free, it may have been usable. But as-is, I've got to agree with you on them.

You know a TIE fighter doesn't have target lock right. and a targeting computer is 2 points.. and you get a point of PS. And a point of shield instead of a point of hull, which from modifications we know is worth at least one point. So no. It's not "a 2 points more expensive TIE fighter" it's an appropriately costed fighter with a different role. I would prefer the title was free but sadly it's not.

 bocatt wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.

Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed with Scums unique ships as well from what I've seen. The Starviper wants to be a bulky arc dodger, but its pilot skill is so low, and its maneuver dial so average, it doesn't look like it would be able to do that. Plus, Prince Xixor wants to fly in formation and let some chump take the hits. The Scyk costs 2 points more than a TIE-Fighter, and has a worse maneuver dial. If "Heavy" Scyk was free, it may have been usable. But as-is, I've got to agree with you on them.

You know a TIE fighter doesn't have target lock right. and a targeting computer is 2 points.. and you get a point of PS. And a point of shield instead of a point of hull, which from modifications we know is worth at least one point. So no. It's not "a 2 points more expensive TIE fighter" it's an appropriately costed fighter with a different role. I would prefer the title was free but sadly it's not.

Mathematically, a focus token is as good offensively as a target lock. The trade-off is that you can use it defensively, but you can't bank it for later. You are also assuming that a targeting computer is worth 2 points. I would argue that, because of the mathmatical similarity of the two actions offensively, and the superior defensive use of the focus, the Scyk doesn't need to ever take a target lock unless it has no other action. So, I disagree with you that gaining the target-lock action (which it will likely never use) is worth 2 points. I will, however, concede that gaining a shield is worth a point, but wish to deduct some points for the worse maneuver dial.

Also, how does the Scyk fulfill a different role than a TIE Fighter? Both have:
1) Attack 2
2) Agility 3
3) 3 Hits total
4) The barrel role and evade actions.
5) Low point bracket.

So, their main role seems to be cheap, maneuverable fodder. However, the TIE fighter is better at the "Maneuver" and "Cheap" things- it has a higher top speed, it can make a hard 3 turn, and it is 2 points cheaper. PS1 is also an advantage in this role, as it means that you can block your opponents blocker. The Scyk does have a 1-bank maneuver, but this is very similar to the areas already occupied by the 1-turn and 2-all maneuvers, where as the 3-turn puts you in an area with relatively little overlap with other maneuver options.

I could have bought a 13-point fighter, but 14 points is excessive, especially since scum also have the Z-95.

 bocatt wrote:
You know a TIE fighter doesn't have target lock right. and a targeting computer is 2 points..

So? Since it doesn't get multiple actions a TIE fighter would very rarely use a target lock even if it had one in its action bar. You should never be willing to pay 2 points to add a targeting computer to a TIE fighter (outside of weird situations like supporting Vessery), so the fact that a upgrade costs the same as a different upgrade doesn't mean very much.

and you get a point of PS.

Which is both good and bad. TIE fighters actually benefit quite a bit from being PS 1 because of their role as blockers. Moving first lets them get into position before the target ship can move, and that makes it a lot easier to cut off maneuvering options.

And a point of shield instead of a point of hull, which from modifications we know is worth at least one point.

This assumes that the modifications use the same cost system as the basic stat line, something we know isn't true. A TIE fighter with a shield upgrade is not worth 16 points.

So no. It's not "a 2 points more expensive TIE fighter" it's an appropriately costed fighter with a different role.

The math disagrees with you. The naked scyk is significantly overpriced and not a viable option.

For fun games, I have a pair of conversions of Twi'lek "Deathseeds" that I made out of TIE balls and X-Wing s-foils. I thought about fielding them as "counts as" Scyks, but I realized I would really rather use the profiles of TIE interceptors, even with the possibilities of the Heavy Scyk" card. Seems like I would get more use of upgrades like the Royal Guard titles, as well as great squint pilots.

The 'shared' ships definitely don't end up as clones of rebel fleets. The R4 Agromech, for example, goes a long way to taking the blaster turret from useless to lethal, especially in Kavil's hands.

The Y-wing is a very good ship in scum hands in a way it just isn't - even allowing for the new toys - for Rebels. Kavil's access to an Innate elite pilot talent, and Drea's ability to make torpedoes actually work, are good examples.

The Zs are equally good. I think they're better point for point than the scyk, just given the advantages of the Illicit slot.

And the starviper is good. It's just that you can only really field one effectively, because the Virago title is just that damn good compared to the generic one. And it's not Xisor so much as Guri that I find scary. Combine her ability with fire control system and advanced proton torpedoes, and you have the ability to fire one of the most lethal weapons in the game without needing to use your action to do so - leaving it free to use boost or barrel roll to get the range right.

locarno24 wrote:
The 'shared' ships definitely don't end up as clones of rebel fleets. The R4 Agromech, for example, goes a long way to taking the blaster turret from useless to lethal, especially in Kavil's hands.

The Y-wing is a very good ship in scum hands in a way it just isn't - even allowing for the new toys - for Rebels. Kavil's access to an Innate elite pilot talent, and Drea's ability to make torpedoes actually work, are good examples.

The Zs are equally good. I think they're better point for point than the scyk, just given the advantages of the Illicit slot.

And the starviper is good. It's just that you can only really field one effectively, because the Virago title is just that damn good compared to the generic one. And it's not Xisor so much as Guri that I find scary. Combine her ability with fire control system and advanced proton torpedoes, and you have the ability to fire one of the most lethal weapons in the game without needing to use your action to do so - leaving it free to use boost or barrel roll to get the range right.

Yeah, running the old ships with Scum is fun, it's just that the new ships feel underwhelming.

Edit: Problem with Guri is that her pilot skill is so low, a lot of targets worth shooting with APT will just fly away from her after she moves.

locarno24 wrote:
The 'shared' ships definitely don't end up as clones of rebel fleets. The R4 Agromech, for example, goes a long way to taking the blaster turret from useless to lethal, especially in Kavil's hands.

The Y-wing is a very good ship in scum hands in a way it just isn't - even allowing for the new toys - for Rebels. Kavil's access to an Innate elite pilot talent, and Drea's ability to make torpedoes actually work, are good examples.

Sure, they're not identical in every way, but they feel like rebel ships. Kavil would have worked just fine as a rebel pilot without any modifications. The salvaged droids would have worked just fine as "normal" droids (well, except for giving the e-wing a green k-turn, but that's easy to fix). Scum y-wing lists feel less like a new faction and more like a "rebel aces" expansion with a y-wing buff.

The Zs are equally good. I think they're better point for point than the scyk, just given the advantages of the Illicit slot.

Which is exactly correct, the problem is that we already have a faction with z-95s. The "just like the ships you've already been using" ship crowds out the "new and different" ship, and scum loses a lot of their appeal.

And the starviper is good.

It really isn't. It's an expensive elite ship like the e-wing, but it doesn't have the Corran-type elite pilot that makes a ship like that work. PS 5 is too low to be effective, while the "best" pilot is still only PS 7 and has to fly in formation instead of exploiting his ship's full maneuvering options. And without an evade option or any real tank beyond its three green dice it doesn't have the "WTF WHY WONT YOU DIE" factor of other expensive elite ships.

And it's not Xisor so much as Guri that I find scary. Combine her ability with fire control system and advanced proton torpedoes, and you have the ability to fire one of the most lethal weapons in the game without needing to use your action to do so - leaving it free to use boost or barrel roll to get the range right.

Ok, and now you've spent a ton of points on a PS 5 ship that has to set up a perfect shot. Yeah, you can kill a random rookie x-wing or whatever in one shot, but you're going to have a hard time delivering that APT to any equivalent-price targets.

 Peregrine wrote:
The salvaged droids would have worked just fine as "normal" droids (well, except for giving the e-wing a green k-turn, but that's easy to fix). Scum y-wing lists feel less like a new faction and more like a "rebel aces" expansion with a y-wing buff.

I dunno, A green K-turn would mean that the E-wing would be worth taking asides from Corran.

 Peregrine wrote:

And the starviper is good.

It really isn't. It's an expensive elite ship like the e-wing, but it doesn't have the Corran-type elite pilot that makes a ship like that work. PS 5 is too low to be effective, while the "best" pilot is still only PS 7 and has to fly in formation instead of exploiting his ship's full maneuvering options. And without an evade option or any real tank beyond its three green dice it doesn't have the "WTF WHY WONT YOU DIE" factor of other expensive elite ships.

And yet, it is still possible to win with it.

The player who won with a dual StarViper/M-3A list is a talented player for sure, but he decided to go against what was being said about these Scum ships and went 5-0 in a store championship, beating current meta lists. Just because the internet says "this ship sucks" doesn't mean it can't be used to succeed.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
And yet, it is still possible to win with it.

The player who won with a dual StarViper/M-3A list is a talented player for sure, but he decided to go against what was being said about these Scum ships and went 5-0 in a store championship, beating current meta lists. Just because the internet says "this ship sucks" doesn't mean it can't be used to succeed.

And just because one person wins a local tournament with a ship doesn't mean that it's a good ship, especially since store championships are often fairly casual events and there were (presumably) a lot of people rushing to try all the new scum stuff instead of their perfectly optimized lists. Also, the player who won is a top player in the region who had already won plenty of store championships, which means that he had both little incentive to play a perfectly optimized list and the skill to win despite having a weak list. I'll believe the argument that the math is wrong and those ships are actually good when I see them consistently winning tournaments, preferably in the hands of lower-skill players who wouldn't be expected to win without a list advantage.

 Peregrine wrote:
And just because one person wins a local tournament with a ship doesn't mean that it's a good ship, especially since store championships are often fairly casual events and there were (presumably) a lot of people rushing to try all the new scum stuff instead of their perfectly optimized lists. Also, the player who won is a top player in the region who had already won plenty of store championships, which means that he had both little incentive to play a perfectly optimized list and the skill to win despite having a weak list. I'll believe the argument that the math is wrong and those ships are actually good when I see them consistently winning tournaments, preferably in the hands of lower-skill players who wouldn't be expected to win without a list advantage.

And none of those things disproves my point that if you know what you are doing, it is possible to win with what the internet decides are "suboptimal" ships/lists. I've played against people that have lost terribly but then said, "I don't understand... I used Paul Heavers World's list!" Having a "strong" list doesn't make you better at actually playing the game.

Again, instead of hammering people with "this list sucks" or "that ship sucks," let's talk about using those ships and getting better at the game instead of only sticking to what the internet decides is worth playing. X-Wing is a fun game and lots of people play it that way.

Hey all, recently played in a small store tournament at 150 points.

I ran 3x Aggressors: IG88B, C, and D, all with PTL, Inertial Dampeners, HLC, Advanced Sensors, and IG2000.

Disclaimer: I am by no means a very good player. I don't get to play very often since I split my time between working, family, 40k, and many other hobbies/interests. That said, I found this list quite fun, but quite challenging to pilot; 3 larges base ships can be a pain to maneuver. I did not get to playtest at all, so I was flying blind.

We only played 3 rounds, and I went 2-1.

First round was against Rebels: List was (roughly): Wes Janson, Keyan Farlander, Dutch Vander, and Kyle Katarn.
So, not a very "good" build, but it had a couple of ion turrets and a lot of weird upgrades - I don't remember them all.
It was a close game; the guy was piloting the list well, but midway through the game, his dice went from very hot to ice cold. It was really kind of impressive.
I was still working on piloting my list, so I had a few mistakes, but overall my weight of firepower carried me.

Second round was against Imperials: List was Chiraneau with the usual upgrades, Howlrunner, 2x Black Squadron Ties, and Soontir Fel. He had 2x Swarm Tactics, so his PS was above mine early on.
Another close game, but I was able to position my ships well to pick off all the TIEs, even Soontir went down quickly due to weight of firepower early in the game.
Inertial dampeners really paid off in this game; my opponent didn't really know what they did, so in the turn I used them (with all 3 IGs) all his TIEs were in my arcs, which he didn't expect.
The agility of the IGs was really important in this game, and my evade dice rolls were on fire; my opponent was in disbelief at the rolls I was making. Things like him firing every ship he had in the 2nd turn at one IG and causing 1x shield carried throughout.

Third round against Imperials: Chiraneau w/ usual upgrades, Soontir w/ upgrades, and Whisper w/ usual Phantom upgrades.
And....here's the game where I got absolutely rolled.
I was kind of annoyed at the guy I was playing, since he basically made his list at the tourney while everyone was getting their stuff out; but the TO didn't really do anything about it.
That said, he piloted it extremely well, and since all his PSs were higher than mine, he was arc dodging like a champ and really pouring on the pain with whisper at close range.

Overall, I learned a few things about these ships and this particular list.
1. I probably didn't utilize PTL as effectively as I could have, and the same for advanced sensors. Because of this, I wish I had gone with the build using VI, FCS, and Autothrusters. Survivability would've been much higher and still able to get a fair amount of actions to do what was needed. The strenghts of the shared abilities of the ships would have made up for the reduced action abilities of PTL.
2. You've gotta practice. Lesson learned - moving around 3 big base ships got to be a challenge, and I would've done better with some games under my belt, but I do what I can.
3. PS6 made things difficult. VI would've helped out here; being able to react with the decent maneuverability would've been huge. As you can see, I was out-PS'd most of the tourney, but managed to overcome some of it through mistakes by opponents.
4. The Segnor's Loop is really good, and even better with the IG88D ability to use the hard-3 turn.
5. Inertial Dampeners seem like an auto-include with this ship going forward; it's cheap, and the utility it provides against lesser PS ships is awesome.
6. The built-in gunner ability provided by IG88B is awesome; it's basically how I killed dudes like soontir and howlrunner.

Overall, the list was fun. I know, most tourneys aren't run at 150. I speculate at 100 points using B + C would be even more challenging.
That said, I think this ship is the best of the bunch from Scum so far; the high evasion and firepower is really great, and feels almost undercosted. The dedicated firing arc is a liability, but if you can fly these right, you'll be fine.
Thanks!

Got in another two games with my list- and another win and narrow loss.

Win was against a Kath Scarlet/Palob Godalhi/N'dru Suhlak list (I forget the loadout details). Basically, out firesprays and turret ship ran at each other and immediately mixed it up at range 1, resulting in the loss of the HWK and Boba, as well as severe damage to Kath. Y-wing was able to finish off Kath. Our Z-95's meanwhile duked it out on the other side of the borad (I claimed victory due to cluster missiles).

Second game was Against Soontir Fel, Carnor Jax, and a bounty hunter, narrowly lost due to a couple miscalculated moves on my part, plus a couple bad rolls. Twice I managed to just clip a rock with Boba, and couldn't shoot (and I had some good shots if the rocks were 2mm to my left ). Then on the last turn, I ended up just in a damaged Soontirs firing arc, and just failed to get him in my arc. Why didn't I boost? Because I took a damaged sensor array three turns ago, and failed to fix it in time. Had another bit of bad luck where N'dru missed both shots with his cluster missiles, against a defenseless Soontir (who had spent focus trying to kill him). My list now includes munitions failsafe. In the end, my opponent had Soontir left at 2 Hull.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
And none of those things disproves my point that if you know what you are doing, it is possible to win with what the internet decides are "suboptimal" ships/lists.

No, but that's not the point. The person I was responding to with the "the starviper sucks" comment wasn't claiming that it's a bad ship but you can still win games if you have enough of a skill advantage, they were claiming that it's a good ship. There's a huge difference between those two things.

Again, instead of hammering people with "this list sucks" or "that ship sucks," let's talk about using those ships and getting better at the game instead of only sticking to what the internet decides is worth playing.

Why? If the discussion is "how good is {ship}" then why should we lie to people and tell them it's good? Why shouldn't we instead give them an accurate evaluation of the ship, even if that evaluation is "it sucks", and let them decide whether or not they want to use a bad ship in their list?

X-Wing is a fun game and lots of people play it that way.

Yes, lots of people, including most/all of the people who play competitively with only the best ships that the internet approves of. Please keep the "if you netlist you aren't having fun" attitude in GW games where it belongs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 House Griffith wrote:
I know, most tourneys aren't run at 150. I speculate at 100 points using B + C would be even more challenging.

This is an important factor, and why you shouldn't draw too many conclusions from that one event. Playing at 150 points makes your list stronger by giving you three pilot abilities per ship instead of two, and three ships to set up overlapping HLC arcs against high-PS arc dodgers. On the other hand, unless you increase the size of the table, you run out of maneuvering room a lot faster for things like boost + s-loop combinations because there are more ships on the table and more opportunities for them to block you.

And I'll note one other important thing about your experience: you never faced a stress ship. Tacticians and/or R3-A2 will hurt you badly because they shut off your best maneuvering tricks and make you very predictable. And if you get multi-stressed you lose your defensive actions and your stat line isn't good enough without them. That's bad at 150 points where it's only a third of your list, but absolutely crippling at 100 points where half your list is turned into a useless paperweight.

That said, I think this ship is the best of the bunch from Scum so far; the high evasion and firepower is really great, and feels almost undercosted.

Not even close. The scyk and starviper suck (making the aggressor the best of the new ships by virtue of having no competition), but the firespray, y-wing and z-95 are all great. Yeah, it can have its good moments when everything is working right, but it's very easy for your house of cards to fall apart. And, unlike the other three ships, there's only one way to use them. I don't think you can really call a ship "the best of the bunch" when it's completely useless outside of a single specific list.

The dedicated firing arc is a liability, but if you can fly these right, you'll be fine.

The problem is some of the drawbacks can't be countered with skill. You can't take R3-A2 or rebel captive out of your opponent's list, you can't make the table 4'x4' so you have more room to maneuver, you can't keep academy pilots from getting in your way, etc. If you're a good player you're going to have some amazing moments with this ship, but there are just so many ways for your opponent to ruin that perfect world and bring you back to reality.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, but that's not the point. The person I was responding to with the "the starviper sucks" comment wasn't claiming that it's a bad ship but you can still win games if you have enough of a skill advantage, they were claiming that it's a good ship. There's a huge difference between those two things.

It can be a good ship in the hands of a capable player, regardless of what you say. That was my point.

Why? If the discussion is "how good is {ship}" then why should we lie to people and tell them it's good? Why shouldn't we instead give them an accurate evaluation of the ship, even if that evaluation is "it sucks", and let them decide whether or not they want to use a bad ship in their list?

I'm not saying you can't, but your opinion isn't they only valid one.

Yes, lots of people, including most/all of the people who play competitively with only the best ships that the internet approves of. Please keep the "if you netlist you aren't having fun" attitude in GW games where it belongs.

I've never once made that claim nor will I, because it's ludicrous.

As far as playing competitively, people are going to tend to take ships that are considered "good" and for obvious reason (again, I never claimed they wouldn't). The point is, ships you consider to be "bad" can still be played effectively and when I proved that, you're only response was, "Yeah, but..." and, "I think the math..." So you can parrot all of MajorJuggler's "Math Wing?" Good for you, but the lead designer himself said, while useful, it's an incomplete picture of a ship and how it interacts with other ships in your squad. So I'll favor his opinion yours any day of the week.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
It can be a good ship in the hands of a capable player, regardless of what you say. That was my point.

And it's a bad point. A good ship is good independent of who is using it, and a single win by a player who was probably going to win no matter what they used is not proof that a ship is good.

I'm not saying you can't, but your opinion isn't they only valid one.

Well ok, let's hear your opinion then. Why is the starviper a good ship? Don't just post an anecdote about one player winning with it, let's see an explanation of exactly what advantages it has.

The point is, ships you consider to be "bad" can still be played effectively and when I proved that, you're only response was, "Yeah, but..." and, "I think the math..."

You didn't prove anything, and that wasn't my only response. Perhaps you should take another look at my earlier post in this thread, where I explained why the starviper sucks? You even quoted and responded to it, so I know you read it. Or I'll just state its problems again: low PS, no game-changing pilot like Corran, and poor durability.

So you can parrot all of MajorJuggler's "Math Wing?" Good for you, but the lead designer himself said, while useful, it's an incomplete picture of a ship and how it interacts with other ships in your squad. So I'll favor his opinion yours any day of the week.

So what if the lead designer said that? Let's not resort to appeals to authority, especially since it would hardly be the first time that a lead designer was wrong about something (evidence: pretty much every time a GW rule author speaks). If you can't explain WHY things are true instead of trying to cite a higher authority then please don't participate in this discussion.

Also, it's not just about the math, it's about comparing the starviper to other similar ships. The starviper is an expensive "supership" like the e-wing and TIE defender, and has a similar problem with a poor basic stat line that has to be overcome by its fancy tricks and high-end pilots. And let's look at how those ships perform in competitive play: the TIE defender is generally considered to be too expensive and sees limited use, while the non-Corran e-wing pilots are almost nonexistent. So what does Corran have that makes him the single competitive "supership" option? High PS, the ability to sacrifice poor shots on future turns for immediate damage when you have a good opportunity, and powerful synergy between high defense (often with focus + evade stacks) and R2-D2 that keeps him alive long after similar ships would have died. That all comes together to create a ship that is much more powerful than the sum of its parts and give you a good chance of meeting that very high "required performance" number.

So let's look at the starviper and see if it can be like Corran and overcome its poor stat line. High PS? Nope, you're limited to PS 7 at best and the most powerful pilot ability is on the PS 5 version. Good offense? Not really, it's just another 3-dice ship with a FCS at best (and advanced sensors is almost mandatory). Good defense? Not really, it has a poor shield/hull ratio, no HP regeneration, and no evade action. The PS 7 pilot's defensive ability looks good on paper, but in reality it requires you to sacrifice a lot of your maneuvering options to stay in formation and become worthless if your opponent just kills the meatshields first. Good maneuvering? Yeah, lots of tricks with s-loops and advanced sensors, but low PS is a huge problem in a metagame where everything is either PS 1-2 or PS 8+.

In short: the starviper looks like the scum version of the TIE defender. It starts with a poor stat line for its point cost, and doesn't seem to have any of the advantages required to out-perform its stat line like Corran does. And every game I've seen it in confirms this impression. It dies way too easily, and doesn't do enough to justify its point cost before it dies. If you're prepared for Corran/Whisper/Fel/etc then a starviper on the other side of the table isn't all that scary.

Ran this tonight.

IG88 B&C. Both with the following upgrades:

Veteran instincts
Advanced sensors
Heavy Laser cannon
Auto thrusters
Inertial dampers
IG-2000.

Went 3-1. The less was to a 4 x-wing list (luke/r2d2, shield upgrade, VI, and three rookie piolots. Astroids did some damage to me too.

 martin74 wrote:
Went 3-1. The less was to a 4 x-wing list (luke/r2d2, shield upgrade, VI, and three rookie piolots. Astroids did some damage to me too.

What were the lists/players that you beat? It seems a bit odd to me that the only list you had trouble with was the kind of list I'd expect dual aggressors to be best against: not too many ships, no high-PS maneuvering actions, and no stress/ion threats. Was the loss the result of an opponent with a skill and/or luck advantage, or did you have list design problems? And did you win with skill/luck or because your list was good?

Since Scum and Villainy has been released my list building has been focused around Firespray's and Y-Wing's, 2 ships that I picked up when I starting out in X-Wing last year but have never found a place in my regular lists.

All the scum Firespray's have something to offer from the very welcome Elite Pilot Talent slot on the generic Mandalorian Mercenary to the heart of the storm madness of scum Boba Fett's pilot ability. So far I've exclusively been running Boba Fett with Stay on Target,Outlaw Tech & Ion Cannon with pretty mixed results. His offensive/defensive re-roll's from his pilot talent are great and deeply frustrating to my opponents but I'm not sure if they are quite enough to counter his need to operate in the range one "danger zone" of enemy ships. Stay on Target & Outlaw Tech are a fun combination that turn any crew slot owning scum ship into a poor man's Keyan Farlander, I've found myself very rarely using the Stay on Target but instead being much more relaxed about k-turning the Firespray to jockey for position as I end up with a focus anyways. The Ion Cannon has just been so Boba can chip in on the control side of the list when firing at range band 3, and is truthfully only in the list as I normally have 3 points spare. Over the next few weeks I am going to be trying the Mandalorian Mercenary, and maybe Kath Scarlet if I can come up with a build for her that appeals to me.

The BTL-A4 title for the Y-Wing is the first thing I remember being genuinely excited about when the Scum & Villainy reveal articles first went up on the FFG site, so I've naturally been trying to put it to best use now that I have ships and cards in hand. For me the only worthwhile turret on the BTL-A4 Y-Wing is the Ion Cannon Turret I like the control element and am not interested in an extremely limited range(autoblaster) or an easily shut down(blaster) turret. No Y-wing is complete without its Astromech and I've mainly been going with the Unhinged Astromech to help open up the Y-Wings dial with some extra green, its a nice idea and actually works beautifully on a non-A4 Y-wing but I regularly found myself overshooting my opponents[especially Ion'd one's] with speed 3 moves and not getting them in arc. I'm now planning on moving over to the R4 agromech which I'd mentally written off as a Blaster turret enabler card, but actually offers scum A4-Y-Wing's incredible action economy on the attack for only 2 points. I'm also a big fan of R4-B11 when paired with Drea Renthal. 3 points for the ability to spend a target lock to make an opponent re-roll defence dice of your choosing is a bit too situational for my liking, but when paired with the ability to renew spent target locks and make multiple attacks it suddenly turns very nasty and a Y-Wing can become a much more significant threat to high agility ships.

Putting it all together my list since Scum and Villainy has looked like this-
Drea Renthal (22)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4-B11 (3)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Unhinged Astromech (1)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Boba Fett (Scum) (39)
Stay On Target (2)
Ion Cannon (3)
Outlaw Tech (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

And I've also experimented with-
Boba Fett (Scum) (39)
Stay On Target (2)
Ion Cannon (3)
Outlaw Tech (2)

Kavil (24)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Unhinged Astromech (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Those two lists have won me 4 out of my last 5 games, admittedly in a very friendly relaxed club night atmosphere. I doubt they'd be amazing in a tournament environment but they've been incredibly useful for me getting my head around the dials and capabilities of 2 ships that I just haven't spent the time with before. The list I want to try for the next half-dozen games or so looks like this-
Mandalorian Mercenary (35)
Push the Limit (3)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)

Drea Renthal (22)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4-B11 (3)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4 Agromech (2)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It keeps the Y-Wings that have put in solid service for me, and looses the sheer nuts potential of Boba for a much more versatile triple action, boost capable Mandalorian Mercenary.

List one was Han Solo (gunner, expose), Jan Ors, and the cheap Awing. Not sure all the upgrades. His strategy was to give Solo a lot of attack dice. Playing against other builds with the HWK in them taught me to go after it first.

List two had Sontir Fel (PTL, hull upgrade), Kath Scarlet (tactician) and another inteceptor. Once again, not sure of all the upgrades.

List three was had the Bowing elite pilots with a lot of upgrades.

Seems that the IG88 list works well against elite pilots, yet will have trouble against swarms, even though four wings are not a true swarm. The player ran the four swing list well, running Luke Skywalker in getting the shots off, running out and regaining shields in the process. As mentioned, the x-wings took good advantage of the asteroids (using them to get extra defense dice, and I didn't pilot as well, easily losing 4 shields to them).

 Peregrine wrote:
And it's a bad point. A good ship is good independent of who is using it, and a single win by a player who was probably going to win no matter what they used is not proof that a ship is good.

That couldn't be further from the truth. But I'm sure your vast tournament experience says otherwise, right?

Well ok, let's hear your opinion then. Why is the starviper a good ship? Don't just post an anecdote about one player winning with it, let's see an explanation of exactly what advantages it has.

I know, hearing something that isn't what you think is hard for you, but it will okay.

You didn't prove anything, and that wasn't my only response. Perhaps you should take another look at my earlier post in this thread, where I explained why the starviper sucks? You even quoted and responded to it, so I know you read it. Or I'll just state its problems again: low PS, no game-changing pilot like Corran, and poor durability.

No, I read it... I just don't care that you said it. The ship can win and I don't use math to decide solely on whether a ship is worth playing or not, regardless of why you think it sucks.

So what if the lead designer said that? Let's not resort to appeals to authority, especially since it would hardly be the first time that a lead designer was wrong about something (evidence: pretty much every time a GW rule author speaks). If you can't explain WHY things are true instead of trying to cite a higher authority then please don't participate in this discussion.

I'm not appealing to authority any more you're committing the fallacy fallacy. You're assuming that because you think I'm committing a fallacy, my argument is incorrect, which it isn't. Math Wing isn't the only metric of whether a ship is good or not, period. You can sit there and parrot what other people have decided with, "Well the math says..." and "I think the math will prove..." all you want while thinking your the sole X-Wing genius on Dakka, but you can spare all your copy/paste explanations.

And imagine that, another StarViper list that has performed well in two other tournaments (beating just about every variation of popular meta builds), something that I have no doubt will start happening more and more: http://teamcovenant.com/betes/2015/03/12/double-store-championship-report-with-xizzzzzor/

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
That couldn't be further from the truth.

Which part can't, the fact that good ships are good regardless of who is flying them, or that the tournament winner was a dominant local player who had already won several other store championships and was favored to win (or at least finish in the top few) no matter what ships they decided to experiment with?

I know, hearing something that isn't what you think is hard for you, but it will okay.

Oh, I get it, you aren't refusing to offer any constructive discussion because you have nothing to offer, you're just trying to spare my delicate feelings. It's ok, I'm an adult and I can handle disagreement. So tell us WHY the starviper is good.

No, I read it... I just don't care that you said it.

So you have an explanation for why I think it sucks, yet you still demand an explanation. Ok, makes sense to me.

I'm not appealing to authority any more you're committing the fallacy fallacy. You're assuming that because you think I'm committing a fallacy, my argument is incorrect, which it isn't. Math Wing isn't the only metric of whether a ship is good or not, period.

Like it or not, it was a textbook appeal to authority and the argument sucks. I don't care if the designer says that a certain person's math is limited if you can't tell me why the math is limited. Do you understand the difference between "the math is wrong because X said so" and "the math is wrong because it doesn't account for X"?

You can sit there and parrot what other people have decided with, "Well the math says..." and "I think the math will prove..." all you want while thinking your the sole X-Wing genius on Dakka, but you can spare all your copy/paste explanations.

Oh FFS, can you stop pretending that all I posted was a link to someone else's math? You know perfectly well that I've explained the problem with more than just one particular bit of math, and I haven't copy/pasted anything.

(And it's funny how you complain so much about me supposedly doing nothing but parroting what other people have said when all you've done here is claim that other people prove me wrong without offering anything of your own.)

And imagine that, another StarViper list that has performed well in two other tournaments (beating just about every variation of popular meta builds), something that I have no doubt will start happening more and more: http://teamcovenant.com/betes/2015/03/12/double-store-championship-report-with-xizzzzzor/

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. How about instead of linking to random tournaments where a starviper did well (and of course ignoring all the ones where it didn't) you explain why the ship is good?

Oh for the love of...

Peregrine, do you ever get tired of having the same fething conversation in every thread you participate in?

The topic is "what SnV has worked for you" not "tear apart other people's suggestions without offering anything of your own" which is pretty much all you ever do, increasingly, it seems to me, with second hand information you've plagiarised from elsewhere on the web rather than your own experience.

Put forward your own suggestions or clear off.

As to topic.

I'm looking at doing something with Bob, Stay On Target and Navigator, but I can't quite decide on other options to flesh it out. Constructive input (which excludes Peregrine I'm afraid) gratefully accepted.

I'm not sure that Boba Fett with Stay on Target/Navigator needs any of the other options. As his trick is often going to result in him losing his action I can't see any virtue in engine upgrade which is arguably the most useful modification, bombs are still questionable choices, missiles & torps need target locks that may not happen, cannons are expensive and limited to the forwards arc. On the Other hand a 44 PS8 Firespray which can go anywhere on its dial sounds pretty worthwhile to me and leaves a good number of points left over to fill out with smaller scum ships.