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This is quite sad. Could have happened to anyone I guess...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31895461

An amateur footballer has been jailed for killing a referee with a single punch after he was booked in a Michigan United Soccer League match.
John Bieniewicz was about to show Bassel Saad a second yellow card and send the 37-year-old mechanic off when Saad knocked the official unconscious.
The referee, 44, died two days after the game in Detroit last June.
Saad pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced on Friday to at least eight years in jail.
As Saad was about to be taken from the court, Mr Bieniewicz's widow Kristen held up a red card and said: "I would like to serve Mr Saad with the red card that he was entitled to."
Judge Thomas Cameron said: "For better or for worse, you've come to personify all that's wrong with many people's belief about the escalation of violence in sports."
Saad was ordered to pay $9,200 (£6,200) in funeral expenses.
Michigan lawmakers are to consider new crimes for assaults on sports referees.

I'm not sure about the American legal system, but Eight years for what was clearly accidental Manslaughter does seem a mite steep. The guy is a mechanic playing soccer in an amateur league, not Clyde Barrow.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
This is quite sad. Could have happened to anyone I guess...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31895461

An amateur footballer has been jailed for killing a referee with a single punch after he was booked in a Michigan United Soccer League match.
John Bieniewicz was about to show Bassel Saad a second yellow card and send the 37-year-old mechanic off when Saad knocked the official unconscious.
The referee, 44, died two days after the game in Detroit last June.
Saad pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced on Friday to at least eight years in jail.
As Saad was about to be taken from the court, Mr Bieniewicz's widow Kristen held up a red card and said: "I would like to serve Mr Saad with the red card that he was entitled to."
Judge Thomas Cameron said: "For better or for worse, you've come to personify all that's wrong with many people's belief about the escalation of violence in sports."
Saad was ordered to pay $9,200 (£6,200) in funeral expenses.
Michigan lawmakers are to consider new crimes for assaults on sports referees.

I'm not sure about the American legal system, but Eight years for what was clearly accidental Manslaughter does seem a mite steep. The guy is a mechanic playing soccer in an amateur league, not Clyde Barrow.

Why is it steep? He killed the guy because he was mad about a second yellow in, as you said, an amateur league soccer match.

Its not exactly Accidental. He deliberately assaulted the guy.

Killing him wasn't intended, hence why its only accidental manslaughter. If you attack someone and they die you're going to pay the price. He could easily have gotten a murder charge. He's lucky his lawyer was able to get him Manslaughter.

Yeah, physically assaulting someone with the obvious intent to hurt them with no justifiable reason doesn't leave much of a defense.

Yeah, but not everyone is a stone cold killer. Yes he meant to do the guy harm, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to kill him. Think of all the drunken fights over a weekend all over the world. Not many people are actively trying to kill their erstwhile opponent. At least, I'd hope that was the case anyway.

Let's put it like this. If you were out one night with your other half, had a few and some dude insisted on putting the moves on her, you'd be pretty pissed. Maybe pissed enough to punch him to teach him a lesson? Did you mean to end his life? No. But it might happen. Bad luck I guess...

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Yeah, but not everyone is a stone cold killer. Yes he meant to do the guy harm, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to kill him. Think of all the drunken fights over a weekend all over the world. Not many people are actively trying to kill their erstwhile opponent. At least, I'd hope that was the case anyway.

Let's put it like this. If you were out one night with your other half, had a few and some dude insisted on putting the moves on her, you'd be pretty pissed. Maybe pissed enough to punch him to teach him a lesson? Did you mean to end his life? No. But it might happen. Bad luck I guess...

If you need to punch someone to assert yourself, you are a loser. Also, your wife should be the one to tell him off.

He made the choice to the attack the ref over a flag and now he has to face the consequences. He should not have attacked the referee, plain and simple.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Yeah, but not everyone is a stone cold killer. Yes he meant to do the guy harm, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to kill him.

Yeah, and that's why he only got 8 years on an Involuntary Manslaughter charge instead of 20-30 on a Murder charge.

If it makes you feel better, this guy will probably be able to get parole in 3-4 years. So as long as he behaves himself during parole he should only spend 3-4 years in actual jail. Maybe less.

 guardpiper wrote:
He made the choice to the attack the ref over a flag and now he has to face the consequences. He should not have attacked the referee, plain and simple.

He had a rush of blood to head for gawds sake. Are you trying to tell me that the dude woke up that morning and thought to himself 'I'm gonna kill me a ref today'?

As for my scenario being stupid. No. No it isn't because that exact same scenario happens a hundred times every Saturday night.

Soccer a hard game? Please...

It's nothing compared to the laundry list of criminals that play American football. When's the last time a soccer player was involved in high speed police chases, serial rapes, dog fighting, wife beating, murder for hire schemes, or escape attempts only to be found hiding in the trunk of a car? The ghetto fabulous lifestyle of American football players makes soccer look pretty tame.



http://arrests.thesportsgeeks.com/

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not exactly Accidental. He deliberately assaulted the guy.

Killing him wasn't intended, hence why its only accidental manslaughter. If you attack someone and they die you're going to pay the price. He could easily have gotten a murder charge. He's lucky his lawyer was able to get him Manslaughter.

No, I'd say that it it actually is a pretty clear involuntary manslaughter case. For a murder, you'd have to prove that he was willing to kill him / planning to kill him and punching someone with a single hit doesn't have a guaranteed kill chance (unless you deliberatly plan to murder someone and are trained to do so) thus murder would be a pretty far fetch.

Well, you know what they say:

Soccer is a gentleman's game played by hoodlums.
Rugby is a hoodlum's game played by gentlemen.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not exactly Accidental. He deliberately assaulted the guy.

Killing him wasn't intended, hence why its only accidental manslaughter. If you attack someone and they die you're going to pay the price. He could easily have gotten a murder charge. He's lucky his lawyer was able to get him Manslaughter.

No, I'd say that it it actually is a pretty clear involuntary manslaughter case. For a murder, you'd have to prove that he was willing to kill him / planning to kill him and punching someone with a single hit doesn't have a guaranteed kill chance (unless you deliberatly plan to murder someone and are trained to do so) thus murder would be a pretty far fetch.

That really depends on the judge and how hard the prosecution wants to hit him.

The line between 3rd degree murder and Manslaughter is pretty blurry.

1st degree murder is the level that requires evidence of preplanning to murder. The other levels do not as I recall.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Well, you know what they say:

Soccer is a gentleman's game played by hoodlums.
Rugby is a hoodlum's game played by gentlemen.

And football is a hoodlum's game played by hoodlums.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not exactly Accidental. He deliberately assaulted the guy.

Killing him wasn't intended, hence why its only accidental manslaughter. If you attack someone and they die you're going to pay the price. He could easily have gotten a murder charge. He's lucky his lawyer was able to get him Manslaughter.

No, I'd say that it it actually is a pretty clear involuntary manslaughter case. For a murder, you'd have to prove that he was willing to kill him / planning to kill him and punching someone with a single hit doesn't have a guaranteed kill chance (unless you deliberatly plan to murder someone and are trained to do so) thus murder would be a pretty far fetch.

That really depends on the judge and how hard the prosecution wants to hit him.

The line between 3rd degree murder and Manslaughter is pretty blurry.

1st degree murder is the level that requires evidence of preplanning to murder. The other levels do not as I recall.

See, that's where the line blurs for me. As I said in a post above, one drunk guy hits another in a bar fight, that guy falls over and hits his head on the bar for instance and dies. That's clearly not murder. That's Lady Luck being a bitch. My knowledge of the legal system here in the uk is pretty much non existent, but I don't think that would qualify as murder this side of the pond. But as you said Grey Templar, it's also up to the prosecutor in the case. The guy that punched the ref was not drunk, but the scenario is much the same. A quick rush of blood to the head and he's potentially lost everything. That's sad.

Sad?

Think about it from the family of the victim's perspective. Your dad was a volunteer referee. Suddenly, one player gets mad about a penalty, punches your dad, and your dad dies.

That's what is really sad.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
This is quite sad. Could have happened to anyone I guess...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31895461

An amateur footballer has been jailed for killing a referee with a single punch after he was booked in a Michigan United Soccer League match.
John Bieniewicz was about to show Bassel Saad a second yellow card and send the 37-year-old mechanic off when Saad knocked the official unconscious.
The referee, 44, died two days after the game in Detroit last June.
Saad pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced on Friday to at least eight years in jail.
As Saad was about to be taken from the court, Mr Bieniewicz's widow Kristen held up a red card and said: "I would like to serve Mr Saad with the red card that he was entitled to."
Judge Thomas Cameron said: "For better or for worse, you've come to personify all that's wrong with many people's belief about the escalation of violence in sports."
Saad was ordered to pay $9,200 (£6,200) in funeral expenses.
Michigan lawmakers are to consider new crimes for assaults on sports referees.

I'm not sure about the American legal system, but Eight years for what was clearly accidental Manslaughter does seem a mite steep. The guy is a mechanic playing soccer in an amateur league, not Clyde Barrow.

There is nothing steep about involuntary manslaughter He got off light, honestly. In Michigan it's punishable by up to 15 years. He got barely over half of that. Sentenced to 8, he'll have 4 to serve before eligible for parole, shave another year off for good behavior. He'll be out in 3.

I don't call that steep for killing someone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter


Michigan Voluntary and involuntary Manslaughter laws: according to MI's definition, he most likely was charged with involuntary.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/michigan-law/michigan-voluntary-manslaughter-law.html

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/michigan-law/michigan-involuntary-manslaughter-law.html



Honestly, there's no debate on this. The guys actions were textbook involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "accidental manslaughter") where your actions are willful and criminally negligent or reckless, but the malice aforethought is missing. The guy intended to hurt him when he punched: he did not intend to kill. This downshifts it from Murder / Voluntary manslaughter to Involuntary.

Murder requires premeditation and malice aforethought. Murder 2 is the lack of premeditation or a killing so wantonly reckless disregard for human life. Murder 2 is often described as the middle ground between 1st degree murder and Voluntary manslaughter. With Voluntary there is intent to kill, but no premeditation. Think of Murder 1 as "Cold Blooded planned murder". Murder 2 is "Your actions were so ridiculously stupid and reckless and intended to cause harm that it rises to malice aforethought due to negligence", and Voluntary is "Heat-of-the-Moment / Crime of Passion" intending to kill. Involuntary is criminally negligent action with death resulting, no intention to kill, no premeditation, no "So stupid and reckless an action as to rise to the level of malice".


This is Involuntary without question. A punch is intended to harm, but not kill. When it kills, a punch is not so recklessly negligent that it crosses the threshold to Murder 2. It's not a "intended to kill, crime of passion", so not its not voluntary. It's not premeditated to kill with malice aforethought, so not murder 1.

Ergo, Involuntary. A criminally negligent act with death resulting.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
A quick rush of blood to the head and he's potentially lost everything. That's sad.

I do hope that by "sad" you refer to the referee's death...

When you throw a temper tantrum and swing at a person, you deserve anything and everything that results from that. Even if that's manslaughter. Noone forced him to be a douchebag. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

He's an adult that got pissed over a game and assaulted someone. i have been idiotically and unnecessary pissed over many stupid things, but I have never attacked someone over it.

If you're looking for things to change the thread title to, I nominate, "donkey-cave Gets Light Sentence after Killing Volunteer Ref over Rec-League Soccer Call"

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not exactly Accidental. He deliberately assaulted the guy.

Killing him wasn't intended, hence why its only accidental manslaughter. If you attack someone and they die you're going to pay the price. He could easily have gotten a murder charge. He's lucky his lawyer was able to get him Manslaughter.

No, I'd say that it it actually is a pretty clear involuntary manslaughter case. For a murder, you'd have to prove that he was willing to kill him / planning to kill him and punching someone with a single hit doesn't have a guaranteed kill chance (unless you deliberatly plan to murder someone and are trained to do so) thus murder would be a pretty far fetch.

You should read up on the different levels of murder charges. They're very well defined. Edit: ninjad.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
This is quite sad. Could have happened to anyone I guess...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31895461

An amateur footballer has been jailed for killing a referee with a single punch after he was booked in a Michigan United Soccer League match.
John Bieniewicz was about to show Bassel Saad a second yellow card and send the 37-year-old mechanic off when Saad knocked the official unconscious.
The referee, 44, died two days after the game in Detroit last June.
Saad pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced on Friday to at least eight years in jail.
As Saad was about to be taken from the court, Mr Bieniewicz's widow Kristen held up a red card and said: "I would like to serve Mr Saad with the red card that he was entitled to."
Judge Thomas Cameron said: "For better or for worse, you've come to personify all that's wrong with many people's belief about the escalation of violence in sports."
Saad was ordered to pay $9,200 (£6,200) in funeral expenses.
Michigan lawmakers are to consider new crimes for assaults on sports referees.

I'm not sure about the American legal system, but Eight years for what was clearly accidental Manslaughter does seem a mite steep. The guy is a mechanic playing soccer in an amateur league, not Clyde Barrow.

What's steep is a woman whose husband was taken from her because a man decided to be an idiot and refused to control his anger issues.

Just checked, it appears this isn't the first time he's been involved in Soccer altercations. He had a previous court case because he beat up another player .

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
This is quite sad. Could have happened to anyone I guess...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31895461

An amateur footballer has been jailed for killing a referee with a single punch after he was booked in a Michigan United Soccer League match.
John Bieniewicz was about to show Bassel Saad a second yellow card and send the 37-year-old mechanic off when Saad knocked the official unconscious.
The referee, 44, died two days after the game in Detroit last June.
Saad pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced on Friday to at least eight years in jail.
As Saad was about to be taken from the court, Mr Bieniewicz's widow Kristen held up a red card and said: "I would like to serve Mr Saad with the red card that he was entitled to."
Judge Thomas Cameron said: "For better or for worse, you've come to personify all that's wrong with many people's belief about the escalation of violence in sports."
Saad was ordered to pay $9,200 (£6,200) in funeral expenses.
Michigan lawmakers are to consider new crimes for assaults on sports referees.

I'm not sure about the American legal system, but Eight years for what was clearly accidental Manslaughter does seem a mite steep. The guy is a mechanic playing soccer in an amateur league, not Clyde Barrow.

Whether or not it was his intent, this PoS killed a man over an amateur soccer game. To me, eight years seems insufficient. It should be 15 years, and Saad should be forced to compensate the family for the lost income which would have been provided by the man he killed.

Chances are, since he's not a citizen,he'll be departed back to Lebanon after he serves out his sentence.

Something similar happened in the Netherlands a while ago: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/04/dutch-assistant-referee-dies-attack-teenagers
Football really can get violent, as many people seem to forget it is just a game. Especially when you look at hooligans etc.

Also, I think he got of really easy. Killing someone, accidentally or not, really should be punished more severely. And I would say that when you hit someone and that person dies, it was not an accident. Hitting someone hard enough can always be lethal. You should not hit someone hard unless you are willing to kill him. Too many people die in a fight with the murderer saying: "oops it was an accident" afterwards.
I think this guy should have gotten at least 30 jears for murder. Even better, he should get a life sentence. Imo, murder should always be punished with a life sentence. If you take someones life, you do not have a right to live either.

An accident is something like, you get hit in a traffic accident and swerve onto a sidewalk and kill someone, you cause some scaffolding to fall on someone and kill them, you accidentally serve someone allergic to seafood some fish soup, etc...

Its not I got mad and punched the guy and he just keeled over and died. If you intend to cause harm and the act kills them you are responsible for their death, its no accident.

Sorry bruv (OP) but I have to agree with most that the guy got what he deserved, possibly even less than he deserved. It's tragic all round really for all concerned but the guy shouldn't have been a total fether by punching someone over a game. It doesn't matter if he meant to do it or not, one punch or not, because of his stupidity and loss of control a man is dead and an entire family bereaved, you can't really put a price on that in years. How would you feel if I was the victim

It's not the same as a drunken brawl either and it's not unlucky for him (though it is for the victim). If you intentionally harm somene even during a split second of rage you should accept the consequences and you should know that any kind of head trauma is enough to potentially kill someone.

I can see your point in context compared to other cases in the US such as police brutality/excessive force etc where no one seems to really get prosecuted but that doesn't excuse the fact that the man is a killer, intentionally or not, does it?

Yes it sucks for the guy that he's lost at least 3-4 years of his life to prison - but he deserves it. If you punched and killed a guy for a stupid reason randomly I'd still love you and visit you often but don't think for one moment that I'd think you didn't deserve to be there. Sorry bruv but that's it.

Empathy is what makes us truly human (that and greasy food). It's ok to feel bad for the moron but he has to pay, in some way, for what he did, you can't rely on his own feelings of guilt (if he has any) to do that. If he was an understanding, decent and loving individual he would never have punched the guy in the first place and would have beat the ground, the post or kicked the ball in frustration like 99% of other people would if they were that frustrated over the damn game. It's not as if it was self defence was it? He ain't exactly Cameron Poe

Sorry bruv but I'm reaching into my pocket and pulling out a Yellow Card for your thoughts in this thread. I understand where you're coming from but intention can never win over action. Am I right? Come at me bro

Oh and football is a soft game played by over-paid primadonnas with bad haircuts and worse cars. I wish that wasn't the case but we know it's true

Thats why we call it "Suck-cer" over here

Anywho I can probably answer for my brother in that he feels the whole thing is tragic, in that one man is dead and another's pretty much ruined, with all the grief that comes with it for all parties. OP no doubt feels that the guy's guilt is, or should be, pretty punishing, which the guy may have to a greater or lesser degree, but at least he's got time to think on it Imho. I think OP took the novel apprach to empathise with the idiotic perp who no doubt woke up that morning looking forward to his game and a cold beer afterwards, without stating similar or greater thoughts for the victim and their family, which I know he has.

OP may have come across as a callous twit but he's lovely really

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Yeah, but not everyone is a stone cold killer. Yes he meant to do the guy harm, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to kill him. Think of all the drunken fights over a weekend all over the world. Not many people are actively trying to kill their erstwhile opponent. At least, I'd hope that was the case anyway.

Let's put it like this. If you were out one night with your other half, had a few and some dude insisted on putting the moves on her, you'd be pretty pissed. Maybe pissed enough to punch him to teach him a lesson? Did you mean to end his life? No. But it might happen. Bad luck I guess...

You need to research the doctrine of involuntary and voluntary manslaughter. Its a tradition in law coming out of the UK legal system. Essentially if you try to harm someone, guess what numbnits, you're fully liable for what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

 guardpiper wrote:
He made the choice to the attack the ref over a flag and now he has to face the consequences. He should not have attacked the referee, plain and simple.

He had a rush of blood to head for gawds sake. Are you trying to tell me that the dude woke up that morning and thought to himself 'I'm gonna kill me a ref today'?

As for my scenario being stupid. No. No it isn't because that exact same scenario happens a hundred times every Saturday night.

Learn from this. Don't batter people.