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It kinda struck me that I don't see Guard players at any events and when people talk about power lists, Guard never comes up except as a possible combo cheese with DA. Is the book bad? Or do people just not play them?

Guard are very powerful particularly as an allied force.

The thing with top lists is, they are designed for tournaments.
People who head to tournaments are obviously going to a tournament, leaving home for a location sometiems far away. So lists that tend to have lower model count, less large tanks.

This is then further added to by most tournaments being timed. The more models you have the longer it takes you to set up, play your game, and then finish up and move to the next table. All that extra time tends to turn into losses, or less valuable victories.
If the game had gone faster, the guard army might have been able to table the opponent, but by turn 4 the other army is still holding onto an objective or two, preventing a total victory. Or maybe if the game went on, the guard army would be able to claim more objectives, but in the short version the other faster army gets more objectives.

Also tourney tables tend to be terrain scarce, which favors other armies.

In game terms, weak can mean a few things.

If you're talking about Competitive, then yes, they're not that strong and there are other top tier picks for winning tournaments etc. There's also the other point about set up time the above poster mentioned.

If you're talking about Tabling, it's actually quite hard to table the IG and have only experienced it once (and that was due to my own deathstrike wiping out ~800pts worth of stuff).

Guard have some strong units. Pask and wyverns are top of that list. They can also combo well with other imperial forces. Such as rad granade inquisitors or shrouded/fnp giving models in blobs, or azreal. Then there is a combo that another poster suggested - melta vets in pods with command squads also with melta in more pods to give ignores cover or tank hunter to the squads.
Overall though - IG aren't exactly a top tier army.

Guards main issue is the lack of mobility, which is a consistent core requirement of many different mission structures these days.

Lack mobility for maelstrom missions.

If you go mech, they are ez kill pts and first blood. Plenty of meltas, lance, and high S units in 7ed.

Russ spam or paskstar are semi-competitve but again too few models for board control thus bad for maelstrom formats

Leth wrote:Guards main issue is the lack of mobility, which is a consistent core requirement of many different mission structures these days.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Lack mobility for maelstrom missions.

If you go mech, they are ez kill pts and first blood. Plenty of meltas, lance, and high S units in 7ed.

Russ spam or paskstar are semi-competitve but again too few models for board control thus bad for maelstrom formats

If you guys were to edit the Guard codex, what would be the solution here? Guard has never been known for its mobility, even in Dawn of War 2 they mention that the IG are masters of stationary defense. Does Guard need buffs to certain units? Points reductions? Or do they need a new, more mobile unit altogether?

 ultimentra wrote:

Leth wrote:Guards main issue is the lack of mobility, which is a consistent core requirement of many different mission structures these days.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Lack mobility for maelstrom missions.

If you go mech, they are ez kill pts and first blood. Plenty of meltas, lance, and high S units in 7ed.

Russ spam or paskstar are semi-competitve but again too few models for board control thus bad for maelstrom formats

If you guys were to edit the Guard codex, what would be the solution here? Guard has never been known for its mobility, even in Dawn of War 2 they mention that the IG are masters of stationary defense. Does Guard need buffs to certain units? Points reductions? Or do they need a new, more mobile unit altogether?

Great question. Perhaps give them a stationary bonus for the troops? The only time I didn't get my face absolutely crushed when I played guard was against Orks. Literally every other army absolutely snapped my spine over their knee. Really tough army to use. But I feel if you know your stuff you can really do some damage.

What could decurion-style stuff bring to IG?

Let's think logically. RP is necron's unique thing, so they get +1 to it. BT points is daemonkin's unique thing so they get +1 BT point each turn.

What's guard's unique thing? Obviously, orders. So, i guess when (if?) they get decurion-style formations they'd get some sort of buff interacting with orders.

Back to the topic. Guards ain't weak - they've got plenty of solid options. Even rough riders can be pretty decent. For example, min rough riders with krak nades and a MB sarge are not bad for frightening off tanks and their s5 ap3 lances are good vs infantry and MC. I'm not sure bout ogryns...they're just a bit wierd game design. They're somewhat like spawns but slower and not fearless.

Most traditional IG lists - gunlines, mechvets, air cav, tank wall have issues with maelstorm - in case of gunlines and air cav, durability for the point - in case of mech vets - and being countered by meta - in case of tank wall.
I think that a combination of these is a way to go. You can have a solid blob that could hold it's own in mellee somewhere around the midboard, mechvets and infiltrating min ratlings grabbing points and artillery/tanks/flyers/scyons supporting your troops and pressing on the weak spots. Hence, a tac list that's not spammy. Such lists are harder to play as theyre are lots of moving parts. But they can do fairly well.

Luckilly, you've got lots of options for allies that can plug the holes. Such as inquisition - rad nades and liber heresius can make blobs dangerous while remaining relatively cheap, IK, Marines can add the needed pressure and so on.

Perhaps increasing the power of orders, and being able to give more of them per officer? Would definitely incentivize Ld upgrades and voxes...

The bonus needs to be really good as the loss of ObSec is much more significant to IG than to Crons or Daemonkin. Maybe they could compensate with formations that get obsec instead of the main decurion formation.

Imperial Guard are a weak faction yes, the context for weak of course being "in a competitive setting"- in a non-competitive setting, there are no weak factions.

The easiest way to fix the Guard in a competitive setting is to fix their fast attack and elite options, both of which are filled with crap.

For decurion style - 1 more order per officer and units can recieve 2 orders rather than just 1. So you don't have to decide between tank hunter and ignores cover for example. Makes a lascannon blob dangerous.
Also the ability to 'blob in' the heavy, special and PCS' s into the normal platoon infantry units.
Both these together would make guard very strong.

No one says you HAVE to lose objective secured. It's a command benefit, which could be attached to a formation just as easily (and at the same time as) a benefit to orders.

Guard definitely lack mobility, and that kills them for maelstrom based missions, or other tournament missions that require scoring objectives.

1 thing I thought of that would help mitigate this (and this is just an off the cuff idea so don't murder me internets), is like in Dawn of War the guard could move between bunkers which enhanced their mobility. What if you gave them some sort of option on the tabletop. Basically they spend a turn "embarked" to move to another location point on the following point. It could also allow for gw to sell bunker models. Just an idea didnt really think it through yet.

Problem with that is that fortifications have to be deployed in your deployment zone in 7th, so it won't help with 'out of deployment zone' mobility.

Check what mission formats your LGS uses. Eternal War is a lot better for guard

Guard are underestimated, their heavy support is some of the best in the game for dealing with horde armies and can spam pie plates. Orks or nids should always have a hard time playing them, mechvet still works along with fast roping from a Valkyrie.

They could have a rule that allows fortifications to be placed anywhere outside of enemy deployment zone. Just spitballin

 tau tse tung wrote:
Guard are underestimated, their heavy support is some of the best in the game for dealing with horde armies and can spam pie plates. Orks or nids should always have a hard time playing them, mechvet still works along with fast roping from a Valkyrie.

If you're wanting to drop in on maelstrom objectives, scions get some mileage too - deep strike plus move through cover allows you to drop straight into terrain onto an objective.

Here's what I'd like to see for guards:
- autocannon and lascannon on all three slots for LRs (Vanquisher with 3 lascannons anyone? Exterminator with 3 AC?)
- ability to blob SWS/HWS either with IS only (so any combined squad must contain at least one IS), or with each other (no restriction on blobbing): 2SWS combined: 6 flamer in a chimera on 12 wounds or 2IS combined with a couple of HWS: lot of lascannons, lot of wounds, vox, higher leadership, etc.
- Senior officer orders for scions (no, I don't want to ally them form a different codex)
- more special weapon slot for scion squad (2 is just meh)

Zsolt wrote:
Here's what I'd like to see for guards:
- autocannon and lascannon on all three slots for LRs (Vanquisher with 3 lascannons anyone? Exterminator with 3 AC?)
- ability to blob SWS/HWS either with IS only (so any combined squad must contain at least one IS), or with each other (no restriction on blobbing): 2SWS combined: 6 flamer in a chimera on 12 wounds or 2IS combined with a couple of HWS: lot of lascannons, lot of wounds, vox, higher leadership, etc.
- Senior officer orders for scions (no, I don't want to ally them form a different codex)
- more special weapon slot for scion squad (2 is just meh)

I have some ideas of my own.

1. Voxs no longer reroll, they add unlimited range to orders (its a giant radio in a universe with cell phone style capabilities dammit!)
2. Cheaper HWS OR they make HWS T5 with a 4+ or 3+ save, seriously, having half the ranged weapons in the game instant kill my 30 point 2 wound model is absurd. Plus there should be an option for vox or adding in cheap fodder.
3. Fix rough riders, all they need is 4+ armor, maybe even 2W to be generous, but having bolters instant kill them in overwatch really negates the capability of the only mobile CC unit in the IG
4. Ogryns need around a 5-10 point reduction apiece, this would make them much more desirable in general
5. Hellhounds are great, but they need a 15-20 point reduction to make them more desirable than their Eradicator counterparts.
6. LRBTs need to be cheaper by about 10 points. Sponsons are worthless so the Iconic tank of the guard needs something to make it more desirable over something like an Eradicator.
7. Make HBs on HWS a 5 point option, otherwise these no point to take them over an AC (or give them pinning, SUPPRESSING FIRE!!!!!)
8. Let Sgts. get Lasguns for free
9. And Finally, Scions should not be LD 7 for the soulless robot only follows orders unit, seriously.

The problem with a lot of these suggestions is they do not address the problem.

The problem, guard is not that mobile, but is great when stationary. Mobility missions are commons
SOOO...
Make Guard better when Stationary?
Dont every play mobile missions?
Give flat buffs that make guard just better at everything?


What guard need are some options that make them Better when the move at the EXPENSE of their capabilities when they are stationary.

Some sort of doctrine that allows them to claim some cover in the open while moving foward but limits the cover they can claim while standing still behind fortifications. It would be a choice, something that you would have to design into your list. Maybe it would get turned on at a certain time or only for certain units. But something that would make some IG units better when moving around, while penalizing them for standing still(or at least not giving them any benefit while standing still).

 Exergy wrote:
The problem with a lot of these suggestions is they do not address the problem.

The problem, guard is not that mobile, but is great when stationary. Mobility missions are commons
SOOO...
Make Guard better when Stationary?
Dont every play mobile missions?
Give flat buffs that make guard just better at everything?


What guard need are some options that make them Better when the move at the EXPENSE of their capabilities when they are stationary.

Some sort of doctrine that allows them to claim some cover in the open while moving foward but limits the cover they can claim while standing still behind fortifications. It would be a choice, something that you would have to design into your list. Maybe it would get turned on at a certain time or only for certain units. But something that would make some IG units better when moving around, while penalizing them for standing still(or at least not giving them any benefit while standing still).

I love this idea, but I think this can be further extrapolated!

Decurion style detachment, lots of infantry as the base, maybe making you include at least 2 platoons, some HWSs, maybe some SWS, and making it so that anytime an infantry model dosent move it gains stealth (that way you can't stack it) to a maximum of a 3+ cover save. Maybe also give them a bonus for going to ground, like the Aegis line, but have it apply anywhere. Make gaining a cover save part of being guard because they are constantly entrenching themselves, digging in, and hunkering down.

The "being on the move" thing just doesn't exist. I get +1 cover for being on the move? Fine, I'll move my whole gunline one millimeter. Also it makes HWT unusable, so unless it also gives relentless, it's not really useful. Not to mention, veterans already have camo cloaks.

Giving cover doesn't make you more mobile, speed makes you more mobile. There are no USR that involves speed that doesn't look weird on guardsman (fleet? beast? crusader?).

I think the general feel of the IG army is pretty nice: The men by themselves are the weakest in every possible way in the whole universe, until you start adding bodies, lots of special and heavy weapons, support, tanks artillery. The problem that after you add usability to the mix you quickly become a slow bulky glasscannon with mediocre range.

And every useful (not awesome, just useful) unit has serious drawbacks. Take Plasma vets in chimera. They are fragile (T3 with 4+ at it's best), their transport is really expensive (why does the elite SM have a 35 points transport while the lousy IG need to pay 65 points?), only has 2 fire points, it's heavy weapons are mediocre (for what role is the multilaser the best choice available? Exactly none). You can take up to 3 special weapons, but if you are in transport, you can use only 2 of them, so you wasted points and your firepower aren't that impressive. If you are on foot you can use all, but you'll drop like flies, and your weapons will blow in your face before doing any damage, because the enemy MEQs were sitting in cover.

Or take a look at Paskisher. Heavy 20 S5 Rending is really good, likely the best weapon you can get in the codex. But you can only take one of the guy, since he's unique, must take a body guard, which will either be cheap, useless and a waste of points, or useful, then expensive. So you end up with a 400+ points unit which is your warlord, with scary weapon, so it will be a big firemagnet. 2 AV14 with 3 HP is far from invincible, not to mention it has cardboard on it's back for armor, so anything with ds or in melee will pop it in seconds. Oh and the range. You have an awesome weapon with 24" range on a vehicle that can move 6" tops (yeah, you have an order, which lets you move more if you don't shoot with your 400 pts unit for a whole turn, which will likely explode in the next enemy turn. Sure.). Everything that can blow your Paskisher has way bigger range than it or will DS next to you. If you want to shoot with him (and you want, since that's why you bought it) you need to move. And two LRs in the open with a big target on their forehead won't live long. At least your LRs are so slow that they can take your footslogging bubblewrap with them (which also increases the price of it ofc).

The AT options for Codex IG are either lascannon spam from HWS or blobs, or more lascannon spam from Vendetta. If you take a blob you are paying 70pts for a single lascannon. That's a lot. But it's easier to support them, you'll only need a single vox, a single Senior officer order (ignore cover, tank hunter, beast hunter are pretty much mandatory), a single priest fearless. The disadvantage of this is that your enemy will have a single target, no shots will be wasted. With 40 men you'll have quite a lot of wounds until he starts to destroy your HWTs, but you can't really bubblewrap your HWT from every side, so if you can take 20 wounds from the front, you can only take 5 from the sides. You'll likely also need to bubble wrap some tanks with your blob, so those possibly will block your line of sight.

HWS on the other hand are cheap (except for the 15 pts HWS tax), is MSU, so your enemy have multiple targets, and you can hope some of them will survive to shoot back, but so fragile that they literally drop to anything (T3, W2, 5+), so if your enemy starts to shoot at them, they will die that turn, and for 105 points aren't that cheap so you can spam the gak out of them. With MSU, LD7 you can't support them well. You can't buy a psyker with prescience and 4 WC on average, a priest, half a CCS and some high LD IC for orders for each HWS you have (or if you do they'll become so expensive you should have taken blobs instead of them), so instead of four BS3, twin linked, ignore covered, tank hunter lascannons you are paying for 3 BS3 lascannons with no USR that's already dead or ran away.

So blobs are expensive, HWS are fragile. A solution to this would be to combine HWS with IS, giving them surplus wounds and vox casters. 40 wounds with 10 Lascannons inside of it anyone? That would be fancy.

Vendetta is nice anti-tank/anti-air, can transport some unit (if they survive being kicked out from an airplane with best wishes instead of parachutes), the twin links neutralizes the drawback of BS3, with 3 LC shots you have a nice chance to hurt something, so it's nice. The problem that you won't see it until turn 2 at best, and there's a chance it won't show up until turn 3-4. Any tank that you wanted to pop will cause havoc by then. The other problem is it's price. 170 is not too expensive, but far from cheap either.

The other problem with IG that Leman Russes, which would be the armored raptrains of the imperium are really meh unless they are called punishers and Pask sits in them (okay, Pask's tank has a different name, but it's type is punisher). LRBT is expensive and scatters to oblivion, Demolishers are expensive, short ranged and scatters to oblivion, Eradicators are cheap, good against light to med infantry but scatters to oblivion, Punisher rapes light infantry from up close and does nothing else, Vanquisher and Exterminator have too few shots to be useful. Executioner is a nice MEQ/TEQ killer, but still prone to scatter (though have 5 time more tries to do something that turn than other blast tanks), but can get hot. So most of the LRs are meh too.

Zsolt wrote:
The "being on the move" thing just doesn't exist. I get +1 cover for being on the move? Fine, I'll move my whole gunline one millimeter. Also it makes HWT unusable, so unless it also gives relentless, it's not really useful. Not to mention, veterans already have camo cloaks.

Giving cover doesn't make you more mobile, speed makes you more mobile. There are no USR that involves speed that doesn't look weird on guardsman (fleet? beast? crusader?).

I was thinking of something like +1 or +2 cover save when in the open but cannot claim the benefit of terrain.

Or perhaps FNP when surging forward outside of fortifications again outside of cover.


Call it a human wave tactic or an adreneline surge going over the top of the trench. Something that you could use to actually get out of the trench.


You want to play static gunline, then fine dont make use of this rule. You want to be semi mobile then lets make some rules that make it possible without making the army overall OP.

Maybe we need to introduce something like a Steel Legion codex or something similar that encourages a more mobile approach. I feel like the MT codex tried this and failed. If our solution was to use stormtroopers with ObSec for maelstrom, then the stormtroopers themselves either need better weapons, more special slots for a 10 man, or they need a price reduction.

I personally have found guard can be pretty mobile, however it requires understanding the rules and using blobs.

So using a blob to advance while keeping the HWs stationary, add in an allied character for scout and/or infiltrate. For guard its about either setting up where you want to be or being able to move without sacrificing too much fire power.

Honestly I think the DKOK rough rider detachment is an amazing addition to an IG force just for that reason.

Problem with adding mobility is "how do you do it without altering the fundamental look and feel of the guard"

I think one option might be to give the Taurox the Fast special rule. I think GW intended the Taurox to be a faster more mobile transport. IMHO something needs to be done to enchourage it

I think a lot of issues that the guard have will disappear with the (hopefully) forthcoming wave serpent nerf. Nothing outside of tau(in one to two units) has that level of firepower that can reliably drop a transport each per turn. Once that hits I think we will see a lot more vehicles come back, especially things like the chimera.

So its less of a problem with guard and more of a problem with eldar/tau.