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I never enjoy these Phoenix Lords. Their lore is honestly pathetic, except Asurmen and Maugan Ra who are awesome (look at Asurmen on the cover of The Death of Ector Prime). However, now that the new Codex is out, it's time to rank these Indian-inspired heroes from best to worst:

1 - Karandras. He gets cheaper and now his Mandiblaster wounds on 2+, ignoring armor saves. If anyone wonder who would win in a battle between the two Striking Scorpion Phoenix Lords, Karandras will definitely eat Drazhar. His melee attacks are S8 Ap2 with no Initiative penalty. However, he has no invul, so be careful when picking the target.

2 - Maugan Ra. He blows up a Hive Fleet on his own. How freaking cool is that? A new firing mod and the ability to shoot twice makes him high on the list. He is decent both at range and in melee, being S6 AP3.

3 - Asurmen. He has 4+ invul (3+ in a challenge), making him the tankiest Phoenix Lord. D3 Warlord Traits is also nice. However, he is still only S5 and Mindrazor isn't that good.

4- Jain Zar. I am not sure what gives with this one. No more Furious Charge means she will always be S4. Even with Shred, that is not going to cut it.

5 - Baharoth. Blind can work well against Necron and Tau, but that only last a turn and he can't come in on turn 1. His weapons are pathetic.

6 - Fuegan. He longer can shoot his Firepike twice. That's it. feth him.

Anyone else have different opinions? Comment below, let me know,

I believe Jain Zar is by far the best Phoenix Lord, models in combat subtract 5 from their Weapon Skill and Initative, meaning she hits everything in the game (Apart from herself!) on 3s! As well as not allowing Overwatch against her unit being Acrobatic and units subtracting 2 from their Leadership makes her beat quite a lot of characters in the game.

Jain Zar. By a long shot.
-5 WS and -5 Init. Cannot fire over watch. Disarm 1 weapon in a challenge.
-2 Ld for opponents in combat.
Fear (you don't really need it with the -5 WS).
And she runs D6+6".
The only phoenix lord she won't kill Baharroth, because she cannot catch him.

Put her in with a unit of wyches, and she makes wyches look good. (Anyone WS7 or less is hitting the wyches on 5+).


-Matt

I feel that Maugan Ra should be lower. His fluff is good, but in game he doesn't do much for the Reapers themselves. Shooting at 2+ saves for the rending means that the reaper's ap3 weapons are wasted and shooting at 3+ saves means you need rending to ignore saves. The new firing modes are nice as is the ability to shoot twice. I haven't got a chance to use him yet so my opinion may change.

S8, AP2 at initiative sounds impressive to me...

Isn't Karadras' ability to come on from any table edge, guaranteed ON turn 2, amazing? Having not played a game in around 4 years, I don't know if it is or not.

Thoughts?

 Lurker wrote:
S8, AP2 at initiative sounds impressive to me...

Isn't Karadras' ability to come on from any table edge, guaranteed ON turn 2, amazing? Having not played a game in around 4 years, I don't know if it is or not.

Thoughts?

Yeah but you don't get the shrouded bonus because you are not Infiltrating. If you go first you only have to worry about one turn of shooting with a 2+ cover if you infiltrate and a turn 2 charge. Karandras' outflank means you still have to weather one turn of shooting but with out the 2+ cover, but since they come in turn 2 you may have pushed the enemy into not wanting to shoot the scorpions with your two turns of shooting. I personally don't think I would ever use karandras' outflank and just infiltrate and be in their face turn 1.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Jain Zar. By a long shot.
-5 WS and -5 Init. Cannot fire over watch. Disarm 1 weapon in a challenge.
-2 Ld for opponents in combat.
Fear (you don't really need it with the -5 WS).
And she runs D6+6".
The only phoenix lord she won't kill Baharroth, because she cannot catch him.

Put her in with a unit of wyches, and she makes wyches look good. (Anyone WS7 or less is hitting the wyches on 5+).


-Matt

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

Asurmen can do some work as a leader. D3 warlord traits are likely to net you one useful trait, and it can be cripplingly good. He's a great anchor in a DA squad that effectively denies the charge from generalist MEQs, such as Tac squads.

Not amazing, but he does have some advantages.

Jain Zar all day long

bibotot wrote:

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

Jain Zar can tank most things. You're punishing any model with only 1 good close combat weapon..

bibotot wrote:

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Wow it's like an Eldar squad is really good at one thing at the expense of other things and the Phoenix Lords boost what their aspect is good at. The only PL that are good against vehicles are Fugan, but guess what you don't need to assault said vehicle because you probably blew it up in shooting, Karandras, but a I7 S8 ap2 weapon is good against most anything, and maybe Mugan Ra with his rending but the reapers are better at it, and the 1 extra haywire grenade that barroth gives which you could get for the price of a normal guy.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

As other said his D3 warlord traits can be good, and he excels at tanking saves, as the only PL with an Invulnerable save and decent CC options he takes that squad of DA and makes them a rock. Also his sword is hilarious when you get that one wound through and their EW model gets removed from play.

Asurmen almost guarantees you get the 'scout 3 units' warlord trait - could be useful in an assault based army?

Never had Soulrazor actually remove a EW. I think Defcoptas are the only thing its dropped...

The Scout trait is awesome. But consider reroll 1s on a 2+/4++ with a 3++ in challenges...

Jain Zar may still be the better option (no overwatch!), but Asurmen certainly has his uses!

(Can't tell you how many times he's been stuck with only Seer or Incomparable Hunter, though)

It's hard to compete with the joy of informing chapter master smashfkr that he cannot use his thunder hammer.
Oh, so you are S4 swinging on my T4 and 2+ armor, that's a bummer.

You want to see something ugly, have JZ lead scorpions. You're WS -5 and Init -5. My exarch is S6 AP2 at init 6. Oh, and I gain an additional attack for each point of init mine is higher than yours. In the first round of a challenge, that exarch is taking ~8 to 9 attacks at S6 AP2. It's beastly.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
It's hard to compete with the joy of informing chapter master smashfkr that he cannot use his thunder hammer.
Oh, so you are S4 swinging on my T4 and 2+ armor, that's a bummer.

You want to see something ugly, have JZ lead scorpions. You're WS -5 and Init -5. My exarch is S6 AP2 at init 6. Oh, and I gain an additional attack for each point of init mine is higher than yours. In the first round of a challenge, that exarch is taking ~8 to 9 attacks at S6 AP2. It's beastly.

Except both of them need to be in a challenge to pull that off, and as such there's no way you can pull it off

The WS/I debuff doesn't require being in the challenge. Run up against Smashbane? Disarm him, Scorp Exarch dies heavy damage to the unit. Run up against some random Sarge? Get tons of attacks on your exarch while punking him hard.

Bharring wrote:
The WS/I debuff doesn't require being in the challenge. Run up against Smashbane? Disarm him, Scorp Exarch dies heavy damage to the unit. Run up against some random Sarge? Get tons of attacks on your exarch while punking him hard.

Ah right, just checked again and I read her disarm as the one that granted the WS/I penalty

Edit: although, most of the time, your opponent would probably be able to decline the challenge, thus hurting the Eldar uni more than their unit

In that case, the scariest Character can't attack, while Jain Zar and the Exarch do substantial damage to the rest of the unit anyways. The Exarch gets fewer attacks, but doesn't need to kill the character before helping cull the squad.

Smashbane hitting at S4 WS1 against a 2+ is better than not attacking at all. And he'll still be wounded on 5's and have a 3++. Alternately, both rip apart his squad quite quickly, then he has to accept the challenge when they're done.

Given most units would only have a Squad leader equivalent, it's only really scary when you have independent characters attached. As all models in 6'' take the hit, there aren't going to be many striking before the Eldar have had their attacks, letting the Exarch double his attacks is foolish. Look at what you have coming at you, 5 S4, AP2 shred, hitting on 3's, at least 4 S6, AP2 hitting on 3's again on average, followed up by at least 12 S4 AP6 again probably hitting on 6's, whether you accept the challenge or not there's not going to be a lot left standing after that. As I look at it your best bet is damage control by that point, avoid the challenge, abd hope and pray you survive long enough to see it work. Obviously certain characters would probably be best off accepting the challenge, so long as there's someone else to take it for them

zerosignal wrote:
Asurmen almost guarantees you get the 'scout 3 units' warlord trait - could be useful in an assault based army?

You cannot assault turn 1 if you Scout. It's better to Infiltrate Striking Scorpions somewhere the enemy cannot see them or they have 2+ cover saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have no idea why people keep caring about Tac squads in melee and some Sarge guy with Power Fist. Nobody plays those and succeed.

Who can take on 25 Boyz with a Nob - Power Klaw, Boss Pole? Maugan Ra is the guy.

Who can kill a Canifex in a single turn? Karandras here.

 statu wrote:
Given most units would only have a Squad leader equivalent, it's only really scary when you have independent characters attached. As all models in 6'' take the hit, there aren't going to be many striking before the Eldar have had their attacks, letting the Exarch double his attacks is foolish. Look at what you have coming at you, 5 S4, AP2 shred, hitting on 3's, at least 4 S6, AP2 hitting on 3's again on average, followed up by at least 12 S4 AP6 again probably hitting on 6's, whether you accept the challenge or not there's not going to be a lot left standing after that. As I look at it your best bet is damage control by that point, avoid the challenge, abd hope and pray you survive long enough to see it work. Obviously certain characters would probably be best off accepting the challenge, so long as there's someone else to take it for them

If 8 to 9 S6 AP2 attacks (hits on 3+) is enough to kill the best character your facing you challenge with the scorp champ. If you bumped into something more scary, Jain Zar issues the challenge to disarm it.
The only thing I'd fear in combat is things that are very tough with lots of attacks, that are not characters. That's a pretty specific list, and it's pretty short list too.

-Matt

zerosignal wrote:
Asurmen almost guarantees you get the 'scout 3 units' warlord trait - could be useful in an assault based army?

how is it guaranteed? you get D3 warlord traits. Which is 50% at the best of times

If it's a CAD, then you also get re-rolls, so better odds than 50/50.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If it's a CAD, then you also get re-rolls, so better odds than 50/50.

Only slightly better than 50/50.
D3 traits, is 30% chance with 1 trait, 55% with 2, and 75% with 3, if you have re-rolls.
It's an average of 53%.
IMO too expensive if you need a specific trait.

For every game he gets Fates Messenger, Eye, and Falcon's, he also seems to have a game where he gets just Seer or Hunter.

And even with Fates Messenger, he once died to non-APing overwatch....

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
If it's a CAD, then you also get re-rolls, so better odds than 50/50.

Only slightly better than 50/50.
D3 traits, is 30% chance with 1 trait, 55% with 2, and 75% with 3, if you have re-rolls.
It's an average of 53%.
IMO too expensive if you need a specific trait.

Think about rolling multiple of the same trait...

It's higher than 50%.

I think most people would say you are required to generate the Warlord traits. Much like generating powers. But I don't recall a relevant rule. I wonder what the RAW really is?

zerosignal wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
If it's a CAD, then you also get re-rolls, so better odds than 50/50.

Only slightly better than 50/50.
D3 traits, is 30% chance with 1 trait, 55% with 2, and 75% with 3, if you have re-rolls.
It's an average of 53%.
IMO too expensive if you need a specific trait.

Think about rolling multiple of the same trait...

It's higher than 50%.

I don't think you automatically get the reroll with the codex: eldar craftworlds, IIRC you need to take the seer council formation to get the reroll.

The CAD is still the CAD.

zerosignal wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
If it's a CAD, then you also get re-rolls, so better odds than 50/50.

Only slightly better than 50/50.
D3 traits, is 30% chance with 1 trait, 55% with 2, and 75% with 3, if you have re-rolls.
It's an average of 53%.
IMO too expensive if you need a specific trait.

Think about rolling multiple of the same trait...

It's higher than 50%.

With the way it's worded, I'm not a hundred percent sure you can generate the same one multiple times.