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Maybe if the rumours are true about whirlwinds being in squadrons we might see their use in competitive games as a counter to eldar jetbikes.

3-6 of them behind a defense line would chew bikes apart.

Now what other teams have large blast cover ignoring cheap units that could work?

Whirlwinds don't penetrate the windriders armour saves, so the ignore cover is irrelevant. It's preferable to use something that actually forces them to jink then.

TompiQ wrote:
Whirlwinds don't penetrate the windriders armour saves, so the ignore cover is irrelevant. It's preferable to use something that actually forces them to jink then.

One round is st5 ap4, the other is st4 ap5 with ignores cover

Whirlwinds are not good against, well, very much. Thudd guns, Wyverns, and scorpius whirlwind maybe, but not regular whirlwinds. And all of those honestly have some issues due to being small blasts. Jetbikes can spread out a lot, a small blast will often only hit one, maybe two bikes, and then artillery gets a lot less scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:

TompiQ wrote:
Whirlwinds don't penetrate the windriders armour saves, so the ignore cover is irrelevant. It's preferable to use something that actually forces them to jink then.

One round is st5 ap4, the other is st4 ap5 with ignores cover

Jetbikes have a 3+ save. Neither ignores cover nor Ap 4 will matter against them, and you won't get enough hits with a single blast for the Str 5 to do meaningful damage.

 DarkLink wrote:
Whirlwinds are not good against, well, very much. Thudd guns, Wyverns, and scorpius whirlwind maybe, but not regular whirlwinds. And all of those honestly have some issues due to being small blasts. Jetbikes can spread out a lot, a small blast will often only hit one, maybe two bikes, and then artillery gets a lot less scary.

I believe it fires a large blast.

Edit: Eldar jetbikes have a 4+ save I believe also

 Konrax wrote:
Edit: Eldar jetbikes have a 4+ save I believe also

No. Eldar Windrider jetbikes have a 3+ armor save. You may be confused with the other types of Eldar that also ride jetbikes.

The Scorpius Whirlwind is a specific variant of the Whirlwind that can fire D3+1 3" S8/AP3 blasts if it sits still.

If regular Whirlwinds can be squadded up, then I could see a full battery being used to force saves on the Windriders, but it's not going to work out very well. Whirlwinds are, at best, AP4.

Windriders do, in fact, have 3+ armor (for no discernable reason whatsoever, I might add), so a Whirlwind battery isn't going to affect them that badly.

There's also the fact that 3-6 of them behind a defense line are going to get shot to gak really fast. Say you roll 3x5 Windriders. Each squad will get 20 S6 shots, hitting on 3's. Versus AV11, and assuming 4+ cover, that'll remove ~2.22 HPs per turn. If cover is only 5+ for the Whirlwinds behind a defense line, then each Windrider squad inflicts ~2.96 HPs, so basically they'll remove a Whirlwind a turn each.

IOW, 3x5 Windriders can remove 3 Whirlwinds in a single turn. So, yeah. Whirlwinds aren't so great as a counter to Windriders.

I'll also point out that even if Whirlwinds could be a good counter, the main advantage they would have would be their ability to fire indirectly, wherein they are out of LoS of the Windriders, and thus cannot be shot.

 Konrax wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Whirlwinds are not good against, well, very much. Thudd guns, Wyverns, and scorpius whirlwind maybe, but not regular whirlwinds. And all of those honestly have some issues due to being small blasts. Jetbikes can spread out a lot, a small blast will often only hit one, maybe two bikes, and then artillery gets a lot less scary.

I believe it fires a large blast.

Edit: Eldar jetbikes have a 4+ save I believe also

yes it is a large blast. which dosnt matter much against a unit like jetbikes that are large and so mobile. They will never bunch up to the point where you are hitting more than 3 of them.

No Craftworld Eldar Jetbikes have 3+ saves.

So no, a whirlwind isnt effective against them. A whirlwind isnt gonna kill more than 1 per turn on a good day.

Something that forces them to jink AND ignores cover? Hmmmmm...... So how bout you do the bestest Tau combo. Take 3 Ion Cannon Hammerheads Take an Ion Riptide or two, and then take pathfinders/tetras. If you manage to land 2 markerlight hits on a single bike unit consider it a distant memory. That S8 AP 2 or 3 large blast with a range big enough to hit almost anywhere on the table should get its points back after like one shot at those pesky elderp bikers.

If you really wanted to have fun with it you could do orks and bring your pretty Stompa or Kill Bursta tank. The belly gun has the potential to have a 3 foot blast although on average being just under 2 feet. You probably gonna hit a lot of bikes with that. If you could find some way to ignore cover more power to you. If not you still hit so many that they will have to jink and will probably still lose a few. Another fun option could be Supa Kannon spam paired with burna boyz. The Supa Kannons will force jinks at long range so the elderp will shoot like crap and then the burnas can charge in and ignore armor with their cutting mode.

Whiskey144 wrote:
The Scorpius Whirlwind is a specific variant of the Whirlwind that can fire D3+1 3" S8/AP3 blasts if it sits still.

I'll also point out that even if Whirlwinds could be a good counter, the main advantage they would have would be their ability to fire indirectly, wherein they are out of LoS of the Windriders, and thus cannot be shot.

Plus, don't the whirlwinds also only have a 48" range? Meaning if they're 6" behind another model/etc, jetbikes could pop in, shoot a different target ignoring the whirlwinds, then JSJ back out of range of the whirlwinds (IF the whirlwinds were an effective counter)

With the defense line it would give a 4+ save as more than 25% is covered.

Regular jetbikes would be forced to jink or die, and with 6 large blasts per turn stuff will die.

The range is only 48 but this will at least either force then to keep their distance or push into range of fire.

Put an icharus las canon on the defense line and put scouts with snipers behind it and a vindicaire assassin an you have a solid base to work with.

Throw in some drop pods, deep striking terminators, and a couple las preds. This could work very nicely I think as a counter to bikes and eldar trickery.

Shame I play chaos.

Just to clarify:

Codex: Eldar Craftworld Windriders (the "regular" jetbikes) have a 3+ armour save. So do all characters on Eldar jetbikes. Whirlwinds would only be good at getting at hidden jetbikes, but would not force them to Jink. Causing lots of saves is good, but don't bother with the ignores cover round. You will do more damage with the str5 version

Codex: Dark Eldar Reavers only have a 5+ armour, but a 3+ jink and FNP on turn 2+. These Jetbikes fear Whirlwinds, but these are not the bikes we are talking about.

Codex: Eldar Harlequins Skyweavers have a 4+ armour, 2 wounds and a once per game 4++.
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However, I think you are on the right track. Having faced off against a pair of Basilisks recently and having every one of my bikes die/run off the board, Barrage is a good answer to Scatterbikes

How the f did the design team think that giving regular jetbikes at 17points a 3+ armour save was a good idea / balanced...

By that logic space marine bikes should confer a 1+ save.

There is no real counter then for most teams aside from Tau with ion accelerators and marker lights. Which might I add good luck to the pathfinders being alive by turn 2.

I could take battle canons on a defiler but it would never make its points back in my opinion.

Guardian Jetbikes (now called Windriders) have always had 3+ armour. Like since Rogue Trader. This is not new.

The thing that is new is that they now have access to a 36" range gun that allows them to stay out of range of most threats. They used to have to get close, now they do not. Also, every model in the unit can get this weapon, not just 1 per 3.

If it makes you feel any better, Drop Pod armies are always good against Eldar. Even Nid Drop Pods. I lost 10 bikes in 1 turn to a unit of Devilgaunts and a Dakkafex dropping next to the bikes.

 Konrax wrote:

There is no real counter then for most teams aside from Tau with ion accelerators and marker lights. Which might I add good luck to the pathfinders being alive by turn 2.

There's a thread somewhere discussing counters to jetbikes. Long-ranged Ignores Cover AP3 exists, volume exists, things that are tough and fast enough to corner the jetbikes and force them to turbo-boost or be assaulted exist, but by far the biggest weakness of jetbikes is the same problem with Wave Serpents last book: you get in close, they're boned. Take things the Jetbikes have a hard time focusing down at range (AV14, good armour, good cover, T6+), ignore the jetbikes, and kill the Wraith units, the Jetbikes have to get in close at the end of the game and if you've got your objectives guarded well enough they can't grab them.

 Konrax wrote:
How the f did the design team think that giving regular jetbikes at 17points a 3+ armour save was a good idea / balanced...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eldar-Windriders


Huh, a new kit. Probably just a coincidence though.

More importantly, you can now run 9 vindicators in a single CAD.........

they are 125 each with the extra armor so thats 1125 points for a whole lotta boom.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
More importantly, you can now run 9 vindicators in a single CAD.........

they are 125 each with the extra armor so thats 1125 points for a whole lotta boom.

^^^^^This. so much this. VIndicators might make a come back. Sure they are short range, but the jetbikes have to get in side armour to hurt them. Multiple VIndies can also hurt WKs (until the WK charges them anyway). Deploy VIndie units on each flank (to make it hard for side armour shots to be possible) then Drop Pod the rest of the army near the center of the board so there is no where for the bike to hide/run.

Galef has it straight. They've been 3+ for ages (though I think they had an armour value back in 2nd, rather than a save. 10, if I recall).
The iffy design decision is deffo the one that gave you the ability to load out an already un-troops like troops choice with enough heavy weapons to make another armies heavy support jealous! Maybe it's an apology for forcing eldar players to use the same models since 2nd edition...

Well chaos better be getting some phat love then if that is the case.

I actually think the Hellturkey will make a strong comeback, at least allied in in many lists, to help combat the EJBs. Most Eldar lists are going to be lacking dedicated AA, or at least sufficient AA to take out two Hellturkies in one or two turns, and even the fabled 30 Scatter Bikes only deals 2.2HP to a HellTurkey in a turn whereas the HellTurkey can potentially Vector Strike one Unit forcing a LD check, and fairly easily vaporize 3-4EJBs per turn. I see it as fairly easy to kill four EJB a turn for 108pts/turn of carndage. Eldar did lose their primary source of AA int he new Codex as the Serpent is no longer Twinlinked with its Scatter Twinlinking its Serpent Shield. Sure, the Crimson Hunter Formation is pretty amazing, but its also 440pts and a single Crimson Hunter won't cut it against Hellturkies.

Right now, Flyer and FMC heavy forces may be the only ones that are "strong" against the new Eldar Netlists that are coming out.

Man if only eldar players could apare 400 points after spending about 1100 on a WK and 30 bikes. If only there were a way to make that fit under 1850, but I mean they'd still need an HQ and um... some weaker units to point to when arguing they are not TFG.

Mavnas wrote:
Man if only eldar players could apare 400 points after spending about 1100 on a WK and 30 bikes. If only there were a way to make that fit under 1850, but I mean they'd still need an HQ and um... some weaker units to point to when arguing they are not TFG.

I completely understand what you are saying, but it is a potentially exploitable weakness, for an atrocity of a codex. Look at most of the lists that people are looking at, they do not include Crimson Hunters or a real AA answer. And it may just limit some of the other potentially broken things the codex can pull off with allies, WWP WraithScythes for example.

And facing 30 Scatter Bikes, HQ, Wraithknight, and 3 Crimson Hunters is better than facing 30 Scatbikes, HQs, 2 Wraithknights, etc.

I think GW ruined their good near internally and externally balanced codex trend with this broken atrocity. I'm looking for any kind of bright side. And the fact that Eldar no longer have De Facto AA with Serpents is about it! And that it looks like at least NOVA isn't going to see an WKs on the table!

 Wolfblade wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
The Scorpius Whirlwind is a specific variant of the Whirlwind that can fire D3+1 3" S8/AP3 blasts if it sits still.

I'll also point out that even if Whirlwinds could be a good counter, the main advantage they would have would be their ability to fire indirectly, wherein they are out of LoS of the Windriders, and thus cannot be shot.

Plus, don't the whirlwinds also only have a 48" range? Meaning if they're 6" behind another model/etc, jetbikes could pop in, shoot a different target ignoring the whirlwinds, then JSJ back out of range of the whirlwinds (IF the whirlwinds were an effective counter)

If you deploy on the short edges rather than the long edges, maybe. Deploying on the long edges means that you have 48" between board edges, so you'll actually find that you need to deploy your Whirlwinds pretty much on the board edge so that the Windriders have a slightly harder time getting into the minimum range zone.

The other issue is that Whirlwinds can fire indirectly, making it much more difficult for them to actually be exposed to the Windriders. For the vanilla version it's basically irrelevant, as it's at best S5/AP4, but for a Scorpius with the Keylek legacy that indirect fire is what will probably keep it alive and firing.

The only issue is that you can only take the Battle of Keylek legacy once, so any other Scorpius rocket artillery you set up will have to fire through Jink.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
The Scorpius Whirlwind is a specific variant of the Whirlwind that can fire D3+1 3" S8/AP3 blasts if it sits still.

I'll also point out that even if Whirlwinds could be a good counter, the main advantage they would have would be their ability to fire indirectly, wherein they are out of LoS of the Windriders, and thus cannot be shot.

Plus, don't the whirlwinds also only have a 48" range? Meaning if they're 6" behind another model/etc, jetbikes could pop in, shoot a different target ignoring the whirlwinds, then JSJ back out of range of the whirlwinds (IF the whirlwinds were an effective counter)

If you deploy on the short edges rather than the long edges, maybe. Deploying on the long edges means that you have 48" between board edges, so you'll actually find that you need to deploy your Whirlwinds pretty much on the board edge so that the Windriders have a slightly harder time getting into the minimum range zone.

The other issue is that Whirlwinds can fire indirectly, making it much more difficult for them to actually be exposed to the Windriders. For the vanilla version it's basically irrelevant, as it's at best S5/AP4, but for a Scorpius with the Keylek legacy that indirect fire is what will probably keep it alive and firing.

The only issue is that you can only take the Battle of Keylek legacy once, so any other Scorpius rocket artillery you set up will have to fire through Jink.

But if they're turtling up, and you're not playing purge the alien, you just gave up a big portion of board control. Any unit you send out will die most likely, unless it's a last second objective grab.

Plus, worst case I suppose the eldar could save a couple bike squads to deepstrike and pop the whirlwinds.

Edit: whoops missed the "short edge" deployment you mentioned. Still, it simply makes the scorpius priority targets then for say, any WKs, as they have a 48" threat range (12" move + 36" guns), or WWP wraithguard to pop the tank for sure. Plusif firing indirectly, the scorpius don't get to use their BS, so 2/3 of the time it'll scatter 7", meaning chances are that it'll miss a good portion of the bikes.

Yep, they've been poorly designed since forever, so it's fine

Thunderfires could work, 60" range will usually get bikes and what will usually be a 2+ cover T7 will be tough to break

Indeed, jetbikes have a large foot print.
You can hardly miss with 5'' templates.
The more hits the better. Its a viable option.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Thunderfires could work, 60" range will usually get bikes and what will usually be a 2+ cover T7 will be tough to break

It's not really the range that's an issue though, it's the lack of AP3. A Whirlwind Scorpius without Keylek can force the Windriders to Jink, cutting down incoming firepower by a substantial degree. A Thunderfire Cannon can't really do that. The best you can hope for is to use Tremor Shells and try and sow dangerous terrain all over the place in an effort to try and control the movement of the Windriders... and compared to forcing them to Jink, that's incredibly suboptimal.

There's not a lot of artillery that's AP3, and even less that could be considered cheap. About the only thing I can think of off-hand that's easy to get is the Basilisk, but the Basi suffers from a cripplingly long minimum range that it can't shoot into. Wyverns might work, but only because they're cheap and S4+Shred can force a lot of saves on T4/3+ models (like Windriders).

Chicken flyer with baleflamer might be decent but even with jink or hitting on 6s I don't see it lasting too long being a primary threat.