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Are Vypers worth taking? Are they effective? What's their best use? Any good alternatives?

They are not bad. There is more powerful stuff in the codex. They are required to qualify for a Craftworld Warhost.

They got cheaper, and you certainly cant complain at the cost now.

I would not criticize anyone for taking a squadron.

I would keep them cheap and the weapons consistent. Go for 2 shuriken cannons and you've got a squadron I'm jealous of as a Dark Eldar player. I'd focus them on cracking light vehicles or threatening monstrous/gargantuan creatures with bladestorm.

Best loadout is double Shuricannon. If you have the points, Holofields are nice since they mean you don't necessarily have to Jink.

The fact that the Starcannon is the cheapest upgrade and longer range is nice, but you get way more wounds on anything with the double Shuricannon build. Scatter lasers are best on jetbikes

I am not a fan of 1-shot weapons, so I consider the Bright lance and EML to be worthless on a non-twinlinked platform

IMO 3 BS4 shots with S8 AP2 Lance should be enough to take 1-2 HP each round from any vehicle. I see no point in taking shuricen cannons as windriders already have far better anti-infantry firepower with Scatter Lasers (I plan to run Windrider host). My idea is to move Vypers across the table and shoot with BL into rear armor of enemy's vehicles.

shyzo wrote:
IMO 3 BS4 shots with S8 AP2 Lance should be enough to take 1-2 HP each round from any vehicle. I see no point in taking shuricen cannons as windriders already have far better anti-infantry firepower with Scatter Lasers (I plan to run Windrider host). My idea is to move Vypers across the table and shoot with BL into rear armor of enemy's vehicles.

Remember you are talking about paper fragile skimmers here. And if you are talking about a squadron of 3 with brightlances, it costs a few points. I’d rather have a crimson hunter for that (or if I liked the models, war walkers). Still fragile, but has the flyer rules to help protect it. And 1-2 HP a turn is OK vs. soft targets, but a little optimistic against AV12. And threat they represent is going to draw fire they cannot take, and gunning for rear shots is likely to put them in an overexposed and vulnerable position. If you do want to take a brightlance viper, I might just stick with one as a tax unit for the host, and flit around your backfield shooting from relative safety.

From a points/firepower POV, the 2xcannon viper is 50 points. A pair of cannon bikes is 54. So it’s a reasonable amount of dakka.

 Nevelon wrote:

shyzo wrote:
IMO 3 BS4 shots with S8 AP2 Lance should be enough to take 1-2 HP each round from any vehicle. I see no point in taking shuricen cannons as windriders already have far better anti-infantry firepower with Scatter Lasers (I plan to run Windrider host). My idea is to move Vypers across the table and shoot with BL into rear armor of enemy's vehicles.

Remember you are talking about paper fragile skimmers here. And if you are talking about a squadron of 3 with brightlances, it costs a few points. I’d rather have a crimson hunter for that (or if I liked the models, war walkers). Still fragile, but has the flyer rules to help protect it. And 1-2 HP a turn is OK vs. soft targets, but a little optimistic against AV12. And threat they represent is going to draw fire they cannot take, and gunning for rear shots is likely to put them in an overexposed and vulnerable position. If you do want to take a brightlance viper, I might just stick with one as a tax unit for the host, and flit around your backfield shooting from relative safety.

From a points/firepower POV, the 2xcannon viper is 50 points. A pair of cannon bikes is 54. So it’s a reasonable amount of dakka.

Hmm... So it seems that it's either a lone stock Vyper to fill the requirements of Windrider host or a squad of 2-6 with two cannons? If so, what is the best way to use them?

I think Vypers are not too big, should be possible to hide in cover. Moving 36" towards enemy lines and jumping into 4+ ruins sounds solid to me. They can survive 2-3 turns of shooting and blow up some tanks, I think.

P. S. If not Vypers, what anti-tank unit would you recommend? Fire Dragons? War Walkers? Something else?

3 falcons deepstriking with no scatter. Each has 5 or 6 fire dragons. Awesome anti tank.

 ColonelFazackerley wrote:
3 falcons deepstriking with no scatter. Each has 5 or 6 fire dragons. Awesome anti tank.

That's what I thought too. I loaded up with 2x fire dragons and 6 allied DE medusae (for 6 S4 AP3 templates).
The problem is that you have nearly 400 points of a tank squadron, firing on a single target. Fire Dragons do wonders, but having that much Falcon Firepower focused on a single target is over-kill.

I had a little more success running falcons with Vectored Engines. This let me land with the rear hatch ~17" away from the melta target. Disembark 6", battle focus 6", and the fire dragons were within 6" for the melta shots. Then the falcons took 12 AP2 shots at another target from their top turrets, and then after shooting pivoted (thank you vectored engines) to face the rear armor away from the enemy. It was a little better, but it's really a lot of points to hold off the table.

If their was a way to reliably get multiple psykers with Nova powers coming out of those falcons, I'd totally do it. But IMO, you hold too much off the table to beta strike with falcons, and you just don't do enough damage when you land.

The squadron of falcons has to fire on one target, each fire dragon squad can fire at a different target. So, this is good for taking down groups of vehicles.

OK, not so handy if your foe can spread his vehicles. Should be able to do serious damage to knights and titans, though.

About "holding off the table". definitely want an autarch and/or comms relay in the list for reserve control, if doing this.

Personally I think a single Vyper is great, and as taxes go it's not an onerous one.

I wouldn't take a full squadron though. Many things that shoot at a single 10 armor 2 HP vyper are overkill, and will wipe out an entire squadron as easily as the single target.

I think one or two in a squadron is the best size. If you get too large, the footprint they take up can make maneuvering harder, and you really need to be able to keep behind cover or out of LOS to live. Large units are also going to become juicier targets. Things like vypers need to do enough damage to justify their points, but not so much to bump their way up the target priority list. When all it takes is a stern glare and some harsh language to swat them from the sky, they need to stay below the radar.

It is generally scepter in the dark eldar universe that a ravaged with three dark lances is not a capable anti tank platform for 125 points. I don't think three vypers for 150 pts is any different.

Yeah, double Shuricannon is the way to go. It's cheapest (which is useful as you're often just taking them for Craftworld tax) and is also suprisingly effective against a lot of targets.

I've not yet tried experimenting the difference Holo Fields make on them though. I really only take them for tax and in some ways, considering that any decent anti-AV10/11 fire will take them out, it's pretty redundant spending extra points on them. That said, Holo Fields would protect them against First Blood (though reserving does the same) and would actually allow you to have a decent save without Jinking, allowing you to fire next turn, as well as making sure they're not so easy to take out with anti-infantry fire, like bolters.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
It is generally scepter in the dark eldar universe that a ravaged with three dark lances is not a capable anti tank platform for 125 points. I don't think three vypers for 150 pts is any different.

If a ravager had 6 hull points and threw out an extra 9 S6 shots for 25 points more, it might work a bit better. If you're gunning for lighter armored vehicles it will work.

-Matt

I'd take them as shooty support units filling gaps in the gunline.
Just in case there is this last man standing Berzerker.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
It is generally scepter in the dark eldar universe that a ravaged with three dark lances is not a capable anti tank platform for 125 points. I don't think three vypers for 150 pts is any different.

If a ravager had 6 hull points and threw out an extra 9 S6 shots for 25 points more, it might work a bit better. If you're gunning for lighter armored vehicles it will work.

-Matt

And I totally agree. But to be honest, I don't think any of the battle hosts are that great. There are only three formations that stand out to me in that codex, the seer council, the aspect shrine, and the dire avengers shrine. The rest have a tax of some sort that makes the formation lack luster.

Crimson Death is pretty good. Free cover save, and re-roll it if you Jink. You have to note that the Crimson Death doesn't require a single squadron, it only requires 3 Crimson Deaths.

Wraith Host is solid. Gaining battle focus and re-rolls to hit is worth the 120 point you waste on the wraith lord. Allied to DE with cheap and effective transports, those guys become really scary.

They're pretty decent actually. I'd either give them twin shuricannons or a missile launcher.

Still, obvious room elephant: Windriders are better.

Or you could just take hornets from forge world and get double the firepower - longer range - scout - acute senses - and armor 11. for 80 points.

PS - FW is balanced.

Decent in MSU glass cannon lists. Don't expect it to survive attention. Don't expect it to kill a lot. But it is an acceptable heavy weapons platform.