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Been building a number of different Eldar lists and I keep coming to this question. I love the Crimson Death formation, I think it's great and I don't think it will ever be bad, however, the loadout of pulse laser and bright lance draws a direct correlation with the hornet, and the points efficiency of the hornet has me questioning. A single Crimson Hunter Exarch is 160 points, it will come on turn 2 at the earliest and is bringing four str 8 ap 2 shots, two of which are lance, at BS 5, and with vector dancer it will continue to shoot each turn thereafter, the special rules make it undoubtedly the king of destroying other flyers, however with AV 10 all around it will die very easily if connected with. I know the native 4+ cover from the formation is nice, but honestly, if some one unloads on it with deadly fire, more times than not I think I'll be tempted to still jink for the 4+ rerollable. Now look at the same 160 points for Hornets, it's going to get you two hornets with two pulse lasers each, that's eight str 8 ap 2 shots across two bodies for the same points, but they will be bringing there shots to bear starting on turn 1, and at AV 11 non-opened top and still able to jink they are slightly more survivable assuming they are both being shot at with full ballistic skill, of course the crimson is more survivable if being snap shot at. The clear weakness of the hornet being against flyers, when compared to the crimson. So the question is, is it better to go with higher volume of fire coming to bear earlier in the game for the same points, or less fire, later in the game, but much better against specifically other flyers, or armies that aren't prepared to shoot down flyers. I honestly don't know the correct answer, which will of course be variable, but I can't even figure out what would be the right answer the majority of the time, and would love community feedback on this, thanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/11 00:33:18
peteralmo wrote: At this point I'm pretty sure FW is pretty universally allowed.
Don't be so sure. There is a thread running around right now with someone who was refused a game for fielding none other than a few hornets. FW is supposed to be allowed but there are still people out there who won't play you because of it. But hey, at least you get to avoid a boring game before it happens.
Well, also keep in mind that your Crimson Death formation can be taken with, or within, an Eldar warhost. Hornets can only be taken unbound, in a CAD, an allied formation, or a Corsairs detachment, so that's something to consider.
(Hopefully, the Imperial Armour books will be updated to say that Hornets can be part of a Warhost in the same slot as a formation of Night Spinners, or Prisms, or whatnot and that shadow spectres can be taken in an aspect warhost, etc. Right now, none of the FW Eldar stuff can be in a warhost. Sadness.)
All that being said, I think your price is off on the hornets. I'm pretty sure its 125 per hornet with dual pulse lasers. (Going from memory, my book is a couple western-sized states away from me at the moment)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/11 03:03:44
Hornets--2 units of 2 with Pulse Lasers (of course).
Outflank them in 9 out of 10 games (run an Autarch or a Comms Relay). The Crimson Hunter will not garner the same attention, or the same hate, that Hornets get. Why? because for ~160 points you get 8 BS4 S8 AP2 shots at 48" on an AV11 platform.
Hornets are an outstanding unit from FW. With Acute Senses, you have a good chance to outflank on the side you want, and even if you don't, each Hornet puts out 4 x S8, AP2 shots with a 48" range (Pulse Laser option). Because they are Outflanking, they generally hit hard first before return fire and positioning can be key to mitigate the damage output against them.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
IMO if you take Crimson Death you need to build your list around it. Ideally it would be a null deployment list with rerollable 2+ reserve rolls. If you don't design your list around Crimson Death and don't take any reserves manipulation you will often find yourself fighting at a 400 pts disadvantage and CWE are not really durable enough to afford that. Two of he biggest advantages to this formation are the sheer durability of the flyers and their ability to put pain on flyers and FMC of all types. BTW I also like the starcannon on the exarch for the precision shots and increased damage against FMC.
The Hornets are better if you just want to drop them in any list as they can always be started on the board or outflanked as need be. They do more damage to ground targets but are also much less durable.
peteralmo wrote: So you feel the hornets are better but will garner more attention?
It's hard to say what a Hornet is NOT better than. It's a good example of a Forgeworld unit that while not completely broken, is unbalanced for its point cost. It's like 20-30 points too cheap. So you'll really have a hard time finding a better bargain in the normal Eldar codex.
The point cost of the Hornet was in Imperial Armour 11, back in 2011, during 5th Edition, in a mostly Apocalypse book, before Apocalypse style units had been included into mainstream 40k.
That said, I'm an Eldar player and I salivate a little bit when I think about getting a couple. The model is awesome. I'd just feel like putting too many on the table at their base point cost would be a tad unfair to my opponents.
peteralmo wrote: Been building a number of different Eldar lists and I keep coming to this question. I love the Crimson Death formation, I think it's great and I don't think it will ever be bad, however, the loadout of pulse laser and bright lance draws a direct correlation with the hornet, and the points efficiency of the hornet has me questioning. A single Crimson Hunter Exarch is 160 points, it will come on turn 2 at the earliest and is bringing four str 8 ap 2 shots, two of which are lance, at BS 5, and with vector dancer it will continue to shoot each turn thereafter, the special rules make it undoubtedly the king of destroying other flyers, however with AV 10 all around it will die very easily if connected with. I know the native 4+ cover from the formation is nice, but honestly, if some one unloads on it with deadly fire, more times than not I think I'll be tempted to still jink for the 4+ rerollable. Now look at the same 160 points for Hornets, it's going to get you two hornets with two pulse lasers each, that's eight str 8 ap 2 shots across two bodies for the same points, but they will be bringing there shots to bear starting on turn 1, and at AV 11 non-opened top and still able to jink they are slightly more survivable assuming they are both being shot at with full ballistic skill, of course the crimson is more survivable if being snap shot at. The clear weakness of the hornet being against flyers, when compared to the crimson. So the question is, is it better to go with higher volume of fire coming to bear earlier in the game for the same points, or less fire, later in the game, but much better against specifically other flyers, or armies that aren't prepared to shoot down flyers. I honestly don't know the correct answer, which will of course be variable, but I can't even figure out what would be the right answer the majority of the time, and would love community feedback on this, thanks.
the formation is 440 points, you can fit in alot more than 160 points worth of hornets in there. And if your talking about a straight swap of the crimson hunter exarch for the 2 hornets, you wouldnt have been able to get the native 4+ cover save from the formation bonus anyway.
i run 4 hornets in alot of the games i play (2 squads of 2), and its never been a problem until my most recent game when one of my club mates revealed himself to not be a fan (post game) of FW and nextime i play him i more him in a non league or local tournament game i prolly will just field other units. As somebody already pointed out, thier outflank ability is huge and acute sense allowing the the re-roll on your outflank roll, have a good chance of arriving where you can be at max range and positioned behind some terrain to limit the return fire. Its my experience with them that they come in, destroy/heavy damage a choice target, than immediatly get killed the following shooting phase or atleast reduced in firepower. I run an reserve heavy force of the 2 hornet squads, 2 spider squads basically every game with crimson hunter exarch or swooping hawks mixed in there also so i always have an autarch, but prolly not worth it in your list for just 2 hornets as its brutal when they dont showup till turn 4 when your reserve rolls are cold.
I would never run any reserves without an Autarch, they are very cheap and very flexible without the reserve manipulation, that's just the icing on the cake.
9000 pts 
6000 pts 
3500 ---> KEEP CALM AND XENOS 
