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So it looks like the boys in black are getting a much needed boost with this dex. I've always loved this chapter and am now seriously considering starting an allied detachment. Id love to hear some recommendations from veteran BT players. While my specific context is low pts (500-1k) I would love to see some general discussion on BT tactica in general.

Are large blobs of initiates and neophytes useful? I love the idea of 20 strong blobs with a sword bro and a hidden power fist charging up the field. Especially since scouts are getting such a buff. However, without a transport are they viable? Would ten mans in rhinos or pods work better?

How's helbrecht? His hatred bubble seems a no brainer, does he work?

16 man crusader squads in LRCs is the biggest reason to take black Templars.

 Las wrote:
So it looks like the boys in black are getting a much needed boost with this dex. I've always loved this chapter and am now seriously considering starting an allied detachment. Id love to hear some recommendations from veteran BT players. While my specific context is low pts (500-1k) I would love to see some general discussion on BT tactica in general.

Are large blobs of initiates and neophytes useful? I love the idea of 20 strong blobs with a sword bro and a hidden power fist charging up the field. Especially since scouts are getting such a buff. However, without a transport are they viable? Would ten mans in rhinos or pods work better?

How's helbrecht? His hatred bubble seems a no brainer, does he work?

Pods would be better. Walking is way, way, way too slow, and it's not like you can T2 charge stuff unless it runs at you.

Helbrecht is not very good. He's 185pts to hand out hatred to units that can already get cc charge buffs, everything else about him is pretty bad. He's an expensive power sword. Meanwhile, at least Grimauldus and his unit can hand out FNP, a much more useful rule. Attach a durable IC or two to tank wounds, and you can spread out a ton of FNP across a lot of bodies via drop pods and have a hard to shift army that, if you shoot it, counter-charges with a bunch of CC buffs. I think that's probably the way to go with BT.

Any larger transports to be found in forge world etc?

Absolutely love BT and have a bunch of marines lying about, land raiders etc... its either them, Minotaurs, or I come to my senses and stop picking up extra armies!

The idea of squads of marines that can shoot the choppy and chop the shooty is really cool and very much in the spirit of "Tactical Marines"

Whats so good about Crusader squads though? Are the 10pt 4+ save marines particularly great? Is it worth giving up the derpidus formation with the free transports?

Edit: Spartan Assault Tank, same stats as a raider, just under two powerfists more than a Land Raider for 25 carry capacity. Sounds pretty sweet

Grimaldus with smashfether to tank might be the way to go if you are,poking at fighting hqs, and that way you'll get orbital bombardment on your chapter master, too!

The black tide is back, it seems.

I'd think it absolutely necessary to get Techmarines with 15 man Crusader squads. Repairing the Land Raiders on the go, adding Power Axe attacks with the Crusader sergeant catching the challenges, and being 2+ to throw the occasional attack on.

Last codex my buddy who plays templar ran units of 11-13 dudes in a crusader, with power maul on the SB, along with a power sword and either a melta gun or flamer. The power maul was mainly because of the rending in challenges, but I'm not sure what special weapon to use now. Maybe a fist because of rage? 4 power fist attacks on the charge seems brutal.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Any larger transports to be found in forge world etc?

Absolutely love BT and have a bunch of marines lying about, land raiders etc... its either them, Minotaurs, or I come to my senses and stop picking up extra armies!

The idea of squads of marines that can shoot the choppy and chop the shooty is really cool and very much in the spirit of "Tactical Marines"

Whats so good about Crusader squads though? Are the 10pt 4+ save marines particularly great? Is it worth giving up the derpidus formation with the free transports?

Edit: Spartan Assault Tank, same stats as a raider, just under two powerfists more than a Land Raider for 25 carry capacity. Sounds pretty sweet

Not quite the same stats, it gets better dakka since its lascannons can fire twice each and it can mount some beefier pintle mounted weapons and get some anti-melta protection.

What about a barebones chaplain for zealot and the EC to take challenges?

Pods seem to me to be a little redundant because of their transport capacity. I feel like over ten models for the crusader squad is the way to go. Especially since - in my case, the rest of my marine army (IFs) will have pods and devs for a firebase.

Are Neophytes more than ablative bodies?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Are Neophytes more than ablative bodies?

Overwatch ablatives, yeah. And your enemy's ticket to the Rage show.

Caestus Assault Ram is a great large transport for BT.

I really may have to get one for myself. It's fast, its an assault vehicle, its tough, and it treats bulky models as if they were normal sized. So you can get 10 terminators in it.

But I think the Black Tide will be an effective list for BT, and I can't wait to pick up some more marines to actually make this happen.

I also love the idea of dreadnoughts getting Rage and counterattack, since you can take them in a unit of 3. So when one dies, the others are better in cc. They will also benefit from Helbrechts WAAAGH.

I think you could have a kinda scary list with the land raider spearhead formation carrying 3 crusader squads and being all "quasi-superheavy."

Chaps do seem like the best in-codex IC to roll with them. Or BA sanguine priests for the narthecium.

 Las wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Are Neophytes more than ablative bodies?

Overwatch ablatives, yeah. And your enemy's ticket to the Rage show.

Yeah, there's now even more reason to put the poor buggers up front. 'Oh no, you killed my Neophyte and I loose 3 Attacks now... Oh, and gain 1 on everyone else!'


I also think BT Honour Guard are going to annihilate anything now. If you run them with a Chaplain (and of course you will, these are Black Templars!) and they take a single casualty within a turn prior to combat, you're looking at 6 Power Weapon attacks per mini with Rage, all rerolling hits. Even in smaller squads and/or having taken casualties, they're going to make anything they touch vanish.

love the title of this thread, which reminds me, to go along with the BT army, a small Ordo Hereticus detachment with this chick as a witch hunter would look fantastic
http://www.ragingheroes.com/products/gretchen

I have recently been using an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor with my BT.
It's awesome.

I'm liking Honor Guard a lot more than termis, to be honest.

They may lack an invulnerable save, but the ability to perform Sweeps helps a lot in combat. .

I'm going to miss that sweet rending in challenges, though. :/

 Paradigm wrote:

 Las wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Are Neophytes more than ablative bodies?

Overwatch ablatives, yeah. And your enemy's ticket to the Rage show.

Yeah, there's now even more reason to put the poor buggers up front. 'Oh no, you killed my Neophyte and I loose 3 Attacks now... Oh, and gain 1 on everyone else!'

Wait, so the new BT chapter tactics or Crusader Squad rules are "you kill one of us, you get Rage from all of us"?

Yes. Rage AND counter attack. If they take a wound in the previous enemy shooting phase or in overwatch as they cha4ge, they get rage and counter attack on the next turn.

So say you have 16 dudes (including sword brethren) charging out of a raider with the signus prime legacy of glory. You lose a neophyte to overwatch, and suddenly you have 61 str5 attacks. Youll kill around 7 MEQs. Pretty good.

Dang I forgot about counter attack. Makes pods and non assault transports kind of wicked.

Well, not wicked but mitigated.

Hahaha that's awesome. BTs are back, baby!

I love that in a universe where everyone's expendable, and the Imperium in particular marches forward on the bodies of the slain, the Black Templars actually care enough about their meatshields to do something about it.

"You haff kilt mein Neophyte! I am personalich offendidt!"

You only get rage and counter-attack for the turn the model actually dies. So best case scenario, you have a guy die from overwatch/gets hot before combat. Or if they decide to charge you after shooting you for some reason

Well, you wouldn't expect them to take a whole turn to get over their grief, would you? This is the grimdark millennium, after all.

I presume the counter to this ability is for the BT's opponent never to shoot them before charging and never fire overwatch?

Im so glad they fixed BT, they are one of the best chapters

 SisterSydney wrote:
I presume the counter to this ability is for the BT's opponent never to shoot them before charging and never fire overwatch?

The counter is to just shoot them off the board before they can make it into combat- a feat that isn't too hard since they're still just marines. Black Tide is not viable, imo. The only way these boys will see combat is by being transported to it by an assault vehicle, or mass drop-pod. Neither of those really constitute as "black tide", though. More of like a mech-list.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
I presume the counter to this ability is for the BT's opponent never to shoot them before charging and never fire overwatch?

The counter is to just shoot them off the board before they can make it into combat- a feat that isn't too hard since they're still just marines. Black Tide is not viable, imo. The only way these boys will see combat is by being transported to it by an assault vehicle, or mass drop-pod. Neither of those really constitute as "black tide", though. More of like a mech-list.

Eventually the neophytes are going to start to question why whenever they do a drop pod assault, there's only 1 neophyte amongst the 9 initiates and the neophyte ALWAYS gets the "honor" to lead the charge...

What is the opinion of the White Dwarf Black Templars Warlord Traits? Are they any good? Better or worse than the regular C:SM traits?

And do we know anything about the new Emperor's Champion?

I'm hoping for something like a GK Brotherhood Champ, but with the Black Sword and Armor of Faith.

Thatd be killer with one of the new Honor Guards.

He got a net buff. The black sword by default is strength +2 ap2, with ID on a to-wound roll of 6. It's master crafted and one-handed, so he gets the two ccw attack bonus.

Edit- Also, he strikes at initiative.