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Ok, so this issue has caused a bit of confrontation with me and a friend.
In the rules for the new Demi-Company formation it doesn't really state whether Tac squads can be replaced for Crusader ones,
The reason I ask as fluff wise Templars don't have Scout or Tac squads, so it makes no sense to not allow it
Two there's no real advantage as the squads cost a lot more and aren't as flexible as the Tac squads.
So opinions would be welcome as my one friend does play them?
Personally I'd allow it as this seems to be an oversight from gw and still let them be battleforged?
I will admit I'm yet to read my codex with a fine tooth comb, so might have missed something on this

Thanks

Gav

Officially, yes they can take it, so long as Black Templars are allowed to take Tactical Squads (which I believe they are). While it might not make sense fluff-wise for Black Templars to field such squads, the Gladius Strike Force and (by extension) the Demi-Company represent how Roboute Gulliman envisioned a Space Marine force to operate. Even though the Black Templars may not as riggedly adhere to the Codex as some other Chapters, they would still be familiar and well versed in its application and could theoretically put together such a force if they desired.

RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Fluff has no meaning unless it is duplicated in the rules.

Tactical Squads are Crusader Squads without Neophytes who only use the Bolter and Heavy Weapons.

Scout Squads are Neophytes out on their test mission to prove that they are Templars.

The only exceptions to this are the Librarian Formation will not be a Gladius Choice, nor will taking the options for the non-Templar Characters.

That having been said, the CAD is still available as a detachment option, and neither the Demi-Company nor the Gladius are required to field any Codex Adeptus Astartes army, even with Templar Tactics.

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

What are you talking about? As a Troops, they can be taken as Troops Choice in a Combined Arms or Allied Detachment.

They aren't limited to Unbound only.

Charistoph wrote:

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

What are you talking about? As a Troops, they can be taken as Troops Choice in a Combined Arms or Allied Detachment.

They aren't limited to Unbound only.

I know that but I meant surely that still walks away from what the Templars are. They aren't really that unadherent of chapters bar not having the scout company or tactical squads. It still just seems like an oversight when writing the final draft on the formation

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

The demi-battle company is just an optional formation. the traditional format is the CAD. So you can still take the crusaders squads in a CAD and they will be obj.sec.

 Icculus wrote:

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

The demi-battle company is just an optional formation. the traditional format is the CAD. So you can still take the crusaders squads in a CAD and they will be obj.sec.

To run a battleforged army it isn't optional anymore. States in the codex you have to pick the Demi at least once for the buffs etc

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

The demi-battle company is just an optional formation. the traditional format is the CAD. So you can still take the crusaders squads in a CAD and they will be obj.sec.

To run a battleforged army it isn't optional anymore. States in the codex you have to pick the Demi at least once for the buffs etc

Oh, well to get the benefits of the Demi, yes, you have to take the Demi. But you don't HAVE to take the Demi. You can run a CAD. which is outlined in the BRB

 Icculus wrote:

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

Son_of_corax wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
RAW
Yes, Black Templar can take the battle-company.
No, Crusader squads cannot be swapped for tac squads.

So a black templar can take the formation, but they must still take tac squads and scout squads.

And this formation is very much codex adherent, which the Black Templar are not supposed to be. So it is not exactly fluffy for BT to run this formation.

Many thanks but I have to ask then why are they still a troop choice but with no real way to play the but unbound?

The demi-battle company is just an optional formation. the traditional format is the CAD. So you can still take the crusaders squads in a CAD and they will be obj.sec.

To run a battleforged army it isn't optional anymore. States in the codex you have to pick the Demi at least once for the buffs etc

Oh, well to get the benefits of the Demi, yes, you have to take the Demi. But you don't HAVE to take the Demi. You can run a CAD. which is outlined in the BRB

I understand what your saying but I have to admit it still sounds and looks like an oversight from gw

Yeah I will agree with that. It does look like an oversight, and I wish we could take it.

I do think it will be faq'd rather quick
But I don't think anyone would be breaking any rules by doing the switch as I really doesn't make too massive a change and is the Templar tactical squad for all purposes
I can't see gw just nerfing every Templars army on purpose when they were the poster boys for third ed and have such a big following?

I doubt it will be faq'd, just because of GW's history with faqs.
And they probably dont see it as nerfing since BT can still take the formation.

Crusader squads are far better than tactical squads so swapping is breaking the rules to gain an advantage (aka cheating) unless you have prior consent from your opponent to change the rule.

As for being FAQd quickly I wouldn't hold your breath GW don't really do FAQs anymore.

GW probably don't see this as merging BTs as it is in no way a nerf to BTs that they don't get a better version of the gladius than everyone else. I mean 5 man crusader squads running plasma and Grav cannon is really not what the Gladius needs on top of free razorbacks for everyone... So I doubt it is an oversight.

Also poster boys for 3rd... We're in 7th and I certainly wouldn't call the BT following huge. Compared to IHs it may be huge but compared to Ultras, Wolves, BAs and even DAs it is tiny hence they got rolled into the Ultramarine codex.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Crusader squads are far better than tactical squads so swapping is breaking the rules to gain an advantage (aka cheating) unless you have prior consent from your opponent to change the rule.

As for being FAQd quickly I wouldn't hold your breath GW don't really do FAQs anymore.

GW probably don't see this as merging BTs as it is in no way a nerf to BTs that they don't get a better version of the gladius than everyone else. I mean 5 man crusader squads running plasma and Grav cannon is really not what the Gladius needs on top of free razorbacks for everyone... So I doubt it is an oversight.

Also poster boys for 3rd... We're in 7th and I certainly wouldn't call the BT following huge. Compared to IHs it may be huge but compared to Ultras, Wolves, BAs and even DAs it is tiny hence they got rolled into the Ultramarine codex.

Hard to say, really, though, the BT Special Edition last time sold out the quickest of them all, even considering how lame it was compared to the other Chapters. (seriously, it looked like he was staring longingly at the other Chapter symbols).

Though, I wonder if this is a clue that a BT Supplement that provides a Crusader Force Formation FOC may be in the offering down the road.

Off hand, is Grimaldus even an option in the Demi-Company?

Just off the top of my head you could do this at 1850:

GLADIUS
DEMI 1
Captain: 90
Crusader: Grav Cannon, plasma gun, AssCann Razor 140
Crusader: Grav Cannon, plasma gun, AssCann Razor 140
Crusader: Grav Cannon, plasma gun, AssCann Razor 140
Devs: 4 MLs, lasplas razor 150
ASMs: 2 flamers, razor 80
DEMI 2
Chaplain: 90
Crusader: Grav Cannon, plasma gun, AssCann Razor 140
Crusader: melta, multimelta, AssCann Razor 110
Crusader: melta, multimelta, AssCann Razor 110
Devs: 4 MLs, lasplas razor 150
ASMs: 2 flamers, razor 80
STORMWING
Stormraven: 200
Stalon: skyhammers 115
Stalon: skyhammers 115

Yeah that would be fair for BTs vs every other chapter...

Looks like you want some kind of formation that reflects BT fluff. Sadly, there isn't one, and we can't say it's an oversight - Unbound could represent BT's fluff anyway. They won't FAQ it for Crusader Squads because there are ways to field Crusader Squads already.

The Gladius Strike Force represents the closest thing to the Codex Astartes GW could imagine. If you want to swap Tacticals for Crusaders, you'd be following the Codex Astartes - which, we know, they don't.

So, don't get distraught! If you field a CAD, you won't be following the Codex Astartes - only in small similar ways that BT have anyway.

Don't worry, be CAD!

Yeah Grimaldus is allowed.

It's not that much of an advantage when you look at points cost, as the crusader squads are still more to run.
As I said earlier they aren't that much of a deviance from the codex a starters bar no scout company. As dorn eventually agreed with the codex doctrines and sigismund was so far up his bum he wouldn't have deviated that much.
If at worse you could say that the chaining of weapons is heretical as sigismund took that from the world eaters gladiator pits

Crusaders aren't more expensive they are the same cost with more options. They are only more expensive if you take advantage of those options like in the list posted above. There is literally no downside when taking a Crusader over a tactical squad. Just upsides.

Well the is if you compare a fully upgraded Tac in terms of points to a fully upgraded crusader squad. As I don't know many people who don't run the 20 man crusader squads. Which means as I don't I get more points to spend else where

So that is a choice. The base cost is the same. Every single option open to a Tac Squad is open to Crusaders at the same cost, whilst Crusaders get a host of extra options and the ability to take a heavy and special weapon at 5 guys.

I still personally think it's an oversight but I know a few gw managers with friends at head office and such so might be putting feelers out. I know when I last spoke to guy healey earlier in the year and before that he said there was talk of a Templar codex or supplement

So you think BTs are supposed to be able to run the list posted above?

As I said I'd have to look it over with my dex in the morning and check. Either way if I'm honest marines are a little op now anyway as I played 2k on 2k against them with my chaos marines and got royally spanked because of all the free tanks.

If I'm honest it doesn't really hose me but was curious as I tend to play fluffy armies and really only want to play 30 armies as raven guard which I play got nerfed and are dump in 40k

Not really nerfed, just got a shift in their CTs with a CT that doesn't synergies with what is strong in the new codex (free tanks, Ironclads, vehicle squadrons)., but the boost to VGV does make them still a viable option.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Not really nerfed, just got a shift in their CTs with a CT that doesn't synergies with what is strong in the new codex (free tanks, Ironclads, vehicle squadrons)., but the boost to VGV does make them still a viable option.

Losing scout really hurt them. Plus as I said I play fluff armies so no tanks or dreadnought shut lots of fast moving stuff. Why 30k is better as assault squads are troop choices

They swapped Stealth and Scout for Shrouded I'd say roughly an even trade. ASMs as troops isn't necessary if you want that go unbound. 30k is cool as a diversion but as it is everyone playing with near identical stuff it gets dull quickly as a main game.

So going off that list you haventy included neophytes in the crusader squads?
Essentially making them a tactical squad, as thats how it reads so there would be no problem running that