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Blood angels... Really two troop?
okay im just getting back in it and my troop just went from 6 to 2...
Am I missing something or do I need to start making an army of snipers to supplement the troops while i spam sanguinary Angelism across the board?

Ham doctor wrote:
Blood angels... Really two troop?
okay im just getting back in it and my troop just went from 6 to 2...
Am I missing something or do I need to start making an army of snipers to supplement the troops while i spam sanguinary Angelism across the board?

You're always allowed to use the Combined Arms Detachment presented in the core rule book. That's the one that has up to 6 Troops slots.

He means options, which lost assault squads, death company, dc dreads, and optional sang guard.

They are down to just standard tacs and scouts.


Also there is no rules question here so this topic belongs in another forum.

Well this is where the rules come in... Please can someone explain to me the whole unbound? My local gaming store says they play 1850pts and aim for tournament standards...

I havnt read the core rules too heavily but kriswall brings up an important point.
"Battle-forged and Unbound armies - Replacing double force org from 6th edition, now players can bring armies that do not follow the restrictions set by the force org now known as Unbound. In keeping to the force org your army is known as Battleforged. The classic force org chart we all know and love is called "combined arms detachment" and gives the bonuses of being able to reroll warlord traits, and troops being "super-scoring" (Objective Secured) units- that is, they can't be denied from scoring unless it's by another Troops unit with the same rule."

Soo Unbound can I skip the 2 troop and 1 HQ Necessity?

Ham doctor wrote:
Well this is where the rules come in... Please can someone explain to me the whole unbound? My local gaming store says they play 1850pts and aim for tournament standards...

I havnt read the core rules too heavily but kriswall brings up an important point.
"Battle-forged and Unbound armies - Replacing double force org from 6th edition, now players can bring armies that do not follow the restrictions set by the force org now known as Unbound. In keeping to the force org your army is known as Battleforged. The classic force org chart we all know and love is called "combined arms detachment" and gives the bonuses of being able to reroll warlord traits, and troops being "super-scoring" (Objective Secured) units- that is, they can't be denied from scoring unless it's by another Troops unit with the same rule."

Soo Unbound can I skip the 2 troop and 1 HQ Necessity?

If you play Unbound, you pretty much just take whatever models you want. You do NOT get any detachment Command Benefits, but can still take Formations. MOST tournaments don't allow Unbound, so you might want to ask at your local gaming store.

A Battleforged army is composed of as many Detachments or Formations you want. Each Detachment/Formation can be any Faction you want and you can multiples of each. You still have to follow the restrictions listed on each, though. For example, an Allied Detachment can't be the same Faction as your Warlord.

The following are all perfectly legal Battleforged armies...

Example1
Combined Arms Detachment of Blood Angels (Warlord is here, making this your Primary Detachment)
Allied Detachment of Space Wolves

Example2
Combined Arms Detachment of Blood Angels (Warlord is here, making this your Primary Detachment)
Tau Empire Fire Support Cadre Formation
Combined Arms Detachment of Chaos Daemons

Example3
Inquisitorial Detachment (Warlord is here, making this your Primary Detachment)
Combined Arms Detachment of Blood Angels
Allied Detachment of Blood Angels

Yes, in unbound you can play with literally any units you own and can even ignore unlocks(for example you can take 3 heavy weapons teams from the astra militarum codex as a heavy weapons squad without having to bring 1 platoon command squad and 2 platoon infantry squads as minimum; the hws can also be the only astra militarum unit you take in your army).

Note though that even if you bring a faction with forces arranged in a non-formation detachment(Combined Arms Detachment being the the most well known), then you do not recieve any of that detachment's benefits(objective secured in the case of the CAD). Formations do retain thier special rules when making an unbound list.

Unbound has 2 specific benefits:
1) lets newer(or overly ambitious) players play a game with the models they have. Even from several different armies if they do not have the requisite units for proper detachments and not enough points for the game otherwise.
2) lets you make very fluffy lists, especially in codices that do not have the new codex-specific formation detachments.

Also note that not everyone agrees to the use of Unbound. If you're a part of a regular gaming group, you'll need to find out their stance on using Unbound first.

 Ghaz wrote:
Also note that not everyone agrees to the use of Unbound. If you're a part of a regular gaming group, you'll need to find out their stance on using Unbound first.

This. One important caveat: if you want to use unbound, I'd bring a copy of the list you want to play with you for the discussion. Theres a big difference between "I want to use my all jump pack Blood Angels army still" and "I want to field a Revenant Titan, Coteaz, an Imperial Knight, a Skyshield, and 3 Tyrants."

ASMs being moved to FA, Baals being moved to HS, DC being moved to elites, Dante not unlocking SG as troops and ASMs losing the option of Razors and LRs pretty much killed every single BA build (apart from exceptionally rare ones). It was an obvious money grab from GW.
Here's what it killed:
-JP armies
-Razorback armies
-AV13 armies (with ASM support)
-SG armies
-Drop pod DC armies
-AV14 wall
We HAD to completely change the make up of our armies and shelve half our collections. At the time we were blinded to this by the jp point decrease for DC, the points drops across the board, Dante hitting at initiative and Mephiston getting IC status.
The completely overcosted nature of the baals, the nerf to blood talons, the loss of 3 priests to a slot and the lack of any serious buffs without heavy restrictions further exaserbated the problem.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes, in unbound you can play with literally any units you own and can even ignore unlocks(for example you can take 3 heavy weapons teams from the astra militarum codex as a heavy weapons squad without having to bring 1 platoon command squad and 2 platoon infantry squads as minimum; the hws can also be the only astra militarum unit you take in your army).

Note though that even if you bring a faction with forces arranged in a non-formation detachment(Combined Arms Detachment being the the most well known), then you do not recieve any of that detachment's benefits(objective secured in the case of the CAD). Formations do retain thier special rules when making an unbound list.

Unbound has 2 specific benefits:
1) lets newer(or overly ambitious) players play a game with the models they have. Even from several different armies if they do not have the requisite units for proper detachments and not enough points for the game otherwise.
2) lets you make very fluffy lists, especially in codices that do not have the new codex-specific formation detachments.

Actually, you can't run the heavy weapons teams separate because unbound specifies that you still follow any UNIT restrictions required. It says in the astra militarum codex that the units in the platoon must be purchased as part of the platoon.

Being "codex compliant" is such a curse for the BA.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
It says in the astra militarum codex that the units in the platoon must be purchased as part of the platoon.

No, the AM codex does not state that at all. It states that certain units make up a platoon. It states the limits of each unit in the platoon. At no point does it actually state these units may only be purchased as part of a platoon. There are some indicators that one can assume this, but that's not the same thing.

If it has it's own datasheet, it can be taken seperatly

Charistoph wrote:
At no point does it actually state these units may only be purchased as part of a platoon.

But does it say that they can be taken without being a part of a platoon?

jokerkd wrote:If it has it's own datasheet, it can be taken seperatly

No datasheets in the AM codex, just unit entry lists.

Ghaz wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
At no point does it actually state these units may only be purchased as part of a platoon.

But does it say that they can be taken without being a part of a platoon?

It has a unit entry list just like the Veteran and Ogryn Squads. Can you take them without being part of the platoon?

Then does it say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

I just had a look and seems "an infantry platoon may include....." is the only difference between them and non platoon units. They certainly seem to only be allowed in a platoon to me.

Do you think creed should be taken separately as he has his own list entry?

Ghaz wrote:Then does it say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

Can you take Veterans and Ogryn Squads separately?

jokerkd wrote:I just had a look and seems "an infantry platoon may include....." is the only difference between them and non platoon units. They certainly seem to only be allowed in a platoon to me.

Permission to be included in something does not mean exclusion from normal methods. Otherwise, Tactical Squads cannot be taken any other way than in the Demi-Company Formation.

jokerkd wrote:Do you think creed should be taken separately as he has his own list entry?

Apparently so. Can you tell me where it states that his unit entry must be taken in a Company Command Squad? Or at the least, that his unit entry is part of the Company Command Squad's?

The previous codices set these apart by blocking them completely separate from the rest of the unit entry lists. Now, the digital version of the AM codex does not do this, but the paperback does a nod to this by having a little square as the background behind the squads, but it does not completely surround the entries like in previous codices. So, while this can be interpreted to being an all inclusive surround, it is not actually ever stated thus.

In most cases, though, this is rather pointless outside Unbound and Conscript Squads, as any other squad is rather useless being so exposed without support.

Poly Ranger wrote:
We HAD to completely change the make up of our armies and shelve half our collections. At the time we were blinded to this by the jp point decrease for DC, the points drops across the board, Dante hitting at initiative and Mephiston getting IC status.
The completely overcosted nature of the baals, the nerf to blood talons, the loss of 3 priests to a slot and the lack of any serious buffs without heavy restrictions further exaserbated the problem.

Hey, at least we have an excellent taxi service! That has always been my aim with BA, to field drop pods and nothing else

To OP, it is more than probable that your store does not allow Unbound armies. Paint some scouts, leave them in reserves and go with the flesh tearers strike force. They are still not as good as the more recent armies and don't play the way you were used to, but hey, in 2 years GW will have it fixed. Right?

Charistoph wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Then does it say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

Can you take Veterans and Ogryn Squads separately?

jokerkd wrote:I just had a look and seems "an infantry platoon may include....." is the only difference between them and non platoon units. They certainly seem to only be allowed in a platoon to me.

Permission to be included in something does not mean exclusion from normal methods. Otherwise, Tactical Squads cannot be taken any other way than in the Demi-Company Formation.

jokerkd wrote:Do you think creed should be taken separately as he has his own list entry?

Apparently so. Can you tell me where it states that his unit entry must be taken in a Company Command Squad? Or at the least, that his unit entry is part of the Company Command Squad's?

The previous codices set these apart by blocking them completely separate from the rest of the unit entry lists. Now, the digital version of the AM codex does not do this, but the paperback does a nod to this by having a little square as the background behind the squads, but it does not completely surround the entries like in previous codices. So, while this can be interpreted to being an all inclusive surround, it is not actually ever stated thus.

In most cases, though, this is rather pointless outside Unbound and Conscript Squads, as any other squad is rather useless being so exposed without support.

So you still can't answer my question and instead bring up nonsensical questions as a diversion. Again, do the rules say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

 Ghaz wrote:

So you still can't answer my question and instead bring up nonsensical questions as a diversion. Again, do the rules say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

No, I answered it using a question to get you thinking about the process. Can you take Veteran and Ogryn Squads separately? Their Unit Entry Lists are the same with the exception that the Platoon Squads have permission to be in a Platoon and the Veteran and Ogryn Squads do not.

Now, as far as I know, you can take Veteran and Ogryn Squads separately without any other permission, aside from detachment organization requirements. So, too, then you have permission to set up the individual Platoon squads that way since they are no more exempted from being taken individually than Veteran and Ogryn Squads are.

So, where one has general permission, why do I need specific permission?

 Ghaz wrote:
Then does it say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

And if that's not a requirement, your opponent can legitimately take a dozen tau marksmen, a buffmander and ~1500 points of missile drones for their 1750 list.

Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

So you still can't answer my question and instead bring up nonsensical questions as a diversion. Again, do the rules say that they can be taken separately? Yes or no?

No, I answered it using a question to get you thinking about the process. Can you take Veteran and Ogryn Squads separately? Their Unit Entry Lists are the same with the exception that the Platoon Squads have permission to be in a Platoon and the Veteran and Ogryn Squads do not.

Now, as far as I know, you can take Veteran and Ogryn Squads separately without any other permission, aside from detachment organization requirements. So, too, then you have permission to set up the individual Platoon squads that way since they are no more exempted from being taken individually than Veteran and Ogryn Squads are.

So, where one has general permission, why do I need specific permission?

So you're entire argument is "it doesn't say that I can't", correct? If so, please read "How To Have An Intelligent Rules Debate" as to why such an assertion is immediately false. So again, do the rules say they can be taken separately, yes or no?

The Army List entry - remember, even Unbound you're still building an Army List - you simply choose to not adhere to detachment rules - is this:
Infantry Platoon.

The "Infantry Platoon" is what you choose, the Platoon Command Squad, Infantry Squad and so on are PART of the entry for the Infantry Platoon, indicated by the huge border around all the entries - making them all one huge single Troop choice entry - with special rules on how to employ these units. These rules do not give a single feth about how you're building your army - Unbound, CAD, whatever. It IS the army list entry, it just so happens to be a more complicated one than others.

In short - The Infantry Platoon has "Composition: ..." as their limitation, and you can't ignore these limitations when you pick the Army List choice of "Infantry Platoon". "Platoon Command Squad" is not a valid Army List choice on its own, so you indeed would need extra permission to use it on it's own.

Ghaz wrote:So you're entire argument is "it doesn't say that I can't", correct? If so, please read "How To Have An Intelligent Rules Debate" as to why such an assertion is immediately false. So again, do the rules say they can be taken separately, yes or no?

If you actually bothered to read my post, what I was basically saying was "the rules already say I can by virtue of how the unit entries are constructed, and they do not say I can't otherwise".

nekooni wrote:The Army List entry - remember, even Unbound you're still building an Army List - you simply choose to not adhere to detachment rules - is this:
Infantry Platoon.

The "Infantry Platoon" is what you choose, the Platoon Command Squad, Infantry Squad and so on are PART of the entry for the Infantry Platoon, indicated by the huge border around all the entries - making them all one huge single Troop choice entry - with special rules on how to employ these units. These rules do not give a single feth about how you're building your army - Unbound, CAD, whatever. It IS the army list entry, it just so happens to be a more complicated one than others.

In short - The Infantry Platoon has "Composition: ..." as their limitation, and you can't ignore these limitations when you pick the Army List choice of "Infantry Platoon". "Platoon Command Squad" is not a valid Army List choice on its own, so you indeed would need extra permission to use it on it's own.

Okay, can you demonstrate how the codex informs us that the Squads are not separate entries? You've demonstrated how they can be included in one choice, which isn't at issue. What is at issue is how the codex defines unit entries means that each one of those squads is available for separate choice on their own, and does not express any limitations afterward. A Heavy Weapon Squad unit entry is no different than the Veteran Squad unit entry, aside from options and being able to be included in a Platoon,

Having general permission does not mean I need specific permission.

So again, you're saying that it doesn't say that you can't. Otherwise you would provide an actual rules quote to back up your position instead of all the justifications as to why it doesn't prevent you from doing so. I think we're done here until you can support your position with a rule that allows you to take them separately, as the unit entry says otherwise.

As I said - I consider the large border as sufficient

the problem with the BA book is that BA are melee oriented, and they forgot to give them anything to help make it to melee, either by speed or survival.

At wargames con, my marine battle company had all of 3 close combats the entire tournament. Shoothammer 40k indeed.

Ghaz wrote:So again, you're saying that it doesn't say that you can't. Otherwise you would provide an actual rules quote to back up your position instead of all the justifications as to why it doesn't prevent you from doing so. I think we're done here until you can support your position with a rule that allows you to take them separately, as the unit entry says otherwise.

No, I'm not. I am saying that I can by virtue of how the unit entry lists are constructed, just like I can every other unit in the codex, and this is never countered. Going by this argument, where are the rules that say you can take a Veteran Squad?

Can you prove I have lost general permission? I already have proven I do have general permission.

nekooni wrote:As I said - I consider the large border as sufficient

The large border is undefined, does not encompass the entire Platoon entry like the previous codex did, and does not exist in some of the digital formats. So, unfortunately doesn't provide a good basis.

niv-mizzet wrote:
the problem with the BA book is that BA are melee oriented, and they forgot to give them anything to help make it to melee, either by speed or survival.

At wargames con, my marine battle company had all of 3 close combats the entire tournament. Shoothammer 40k indeed.

There are a few other problems, but that's the biggie.