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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655877.page

Thanks!

OK, AoS is a train wreck of a relaunch, a terrible, terrible game where the best anyone can hope for is GW is lying to us and has real rules somewhere.

And yes, they did not need to blow up decades of world building and fan loyalty just to give us Khorne (now slightly taller!) and the SigMarines.

But I'm not here to talk about that.

Since GW nicked chaos from Michael Moorcock, and threw in a bit of Cthulhu and body horror they've had a real winner.

Early on in WHF RPG they had some passing references to gods of order, and some of their priests showed up in early Boxtree GW novels and short stories. IIRC they wore plain robes, carried wooden staves and lived simple spartan lives. Not bad but not really something that can compete with a concept like this:



You could argue that the Imperium/Empire are the forces of order but they're too weak, too flawed, they're just getting started.

On the 40k side I've long thought GW should make Necrons or Nids the lords of order. So your choices are insanity and mutation, or download to a robo body and kill everyone else until Chaos goes away, OR be eaten and your biomass becomes part of a single-minded orderly entity.

Pick one.

The great CS Lewis wrote in one of his Peralandra books (IIRC) that the only thing scarier than meeting a demon would be meeting an angel. Because you're supposed to be scared of demons but to meet a real angel, an aspect of God would mean losing in an instant every illusion you cling to.

I always liked that idea, that good is even more terrifying than evil.

So with the addition of the SigMarines we have some servants of order who are just as terrifying as chaos.

We're taking your soul and putting it in a sturdy metal body, identical to 10,000 other ones. And you'll go fight chaos with your nifty hammer. And when you die we'll reforge you and send you back out.

Forever.

That's a terrifying vision of hell right there.

So besides looking like some awesome Roman statues come to life to kick ass, the SigMarines have a terrifying concept at their base which I really like.

It ain't enough to justify blowing up 30 years of fluff and games and models, but it shows GW can still sometimes get a good idea and run with it.

I love it, KK. This post made me seriously reconsider my views of the Sigmarines, and so I thank you for that.

Defining the constant war as a personal hell... really depends on the individual. If they really lived for battle to begin with...

Think of it as 'RL' call of duty for the rest of your days... sure some would call it hell, but others would probably be content slaying heretics for all eternity

Of course it's possible to feth this one up pretty easily.

On the surface life as one of GW's chaos champions/marines sounds pretty neat.

Go out, kill maim slaughter, and the more you do it, the more superpowers and level ups you get!

But when done well, when done right, joining chaos is just an ongoing tragedy.

The original Realms of Chaos books did it very very well.

You're out there committing monsterous deeds, screaming your love for chaos, losing your sanity, your body shifting in painful unnatural ways, HOLY @#$%^ THERE'S A 4' SPIKE GROWING OUT OF MY SHOULDER THROUGH MY SKIN OW! OW! OW! and your final reward?

Death (with an even chance of being brought back as a skeletal champion)
Spawnhood
Daemonhood

And those gods you worship, the ones you've given everything to?

They don't care.

They just don't.

They probably don't even know you're there.

And that's just awesome.

When done right...

Also, isn't the kicker with these guys that they come back a little less each time? Like Beric Dondarrion in ASoIaF?

 GrimDork wrote:
Think of it as 'RL' call of duty for the rest of your days... sure some would call it hell, but others would probably be content slaying heretics for all eternity

Think of it as ONLY playing Call of Duty all day, every day.

Forever.

Without even death as a release.

Hey, I didn't say *I* wanted to do it. I just said *somebody* would probably get a kick out of it

Depending on one's religion, that whole thing you said a couple of posts up could very well be the depressing outlook for daily life too /existential crisis

 GrimDork wrote:
Defining the constant war as a personal hell... really depends on the individual. If they really lived for battle to begin with...

Think of it as 'RL' call of duty for the rest of your days... sure some would call it hell, but others would probably be content slaying heretics for all eternity

I would think that, considering that Sigmar's realm is a Valhalla of sorts, that eternal war and heretic smiting is not their idea of Hell. It seems that it would actually be perceived as a great reward for those who get the honor of serving as one of the Eternals. Then again, maybe it's one of those things where, slowly over time, you're stripped of all emotion and feeling, where your sensations are slowly eroded until all you know and all that can rouse any form of feeling anything from within is righteous anger, violence and war. It also begs to question "where does the line get drawn between what Sigmar does, and what Khorne does, and what really makes them that different?". " Slay the heretic" and "Blood for the Blood God" aren't really miles apart.

I've seen a lot of people saying that is a pretty straightforward "good vs evil" type of situation, but with a little reflection on the factions, it would indeed seem to go much deeper than that.

This was an interesting topic you've provided, KK. Now we just NEED MOAR from GW so we can actually fill in the blanks and flesh out who and what the Eternals really are. I look forward to the incoming material.

 Bi'ios wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
Defining the constant war as a personal hell... really depends on the individual. If they really lived for battle to begin with...

Think of it as 'RL' call of duty for the rest of your days... sure some would call it hell, but others would probably be content slaying heretics for all eternity

I would think that, considering that Sigmar's realm is a Valhalla of sorts, that eternal war and heretic smiting is not their idea of Hell. It seems that it would actually be perceived as a great reward for those who get the honor of serving as one of the Eternals. Then again, maybe it's one of those things where, slowly over time, you're stripped of all emotion and feeling, where your sensations are slowly eroded until all you know and all that can rouse any form of feeling anything from within is righteous anger, violence and war. It also begs to question "where does the line get drawn between what Sigmar does, and what Khorne does, and what really makes them that different?". " Slay the heretic" and "Blood for the Blood God" aren't really miles apart.

I've seen a lot of people saying that is a pretty straightforward "good vs evil" type of situation, but with a little reflection on the factions, it would indeed seem to go much deeper than that.

This was an interesting topic you've provided, KK. Now we just NEED MOAR from GW so we can actually fill in the blanks and flesh out who and what the Eternals really are. I look forward to the incoming material.

10 of 15 years ago, I might have believed GW could write the Sigmarines with that much thoughtfulness and nuance.

These days I can't muster even the slightest hint of confidence that they'll be anything more than "Super-Awesome-Sigmar-Friends! Buy your new Super-Awesome-Sigmar-Friends! models to play out being a Super-Awesome Friend of Sigmar, the unequivocally good guy faction, and smite the evil Chaosmatrons, so evil they make Satan himself cringe with fear! But watch out, Brave Sigmar-Friend! If your evil Chaosmatron enemy has a moustache long enough to twirl archly like a silent movie villain, his Chaosmatron forces will become even more evil! Be sure to strike a noble and heroic pose and exclaim 'Sigmaaar, HOOOOOOOOOOO!" as loud as you can in order to upgrade your Super-Awesome-Sigmar-Friends! with the power of AWESOME!"

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
Defining the constant war as a personal hell... really depends on the individual. If they really lived for battle to begin with...

Think of it as 'RL' call of duty for the rest of your days... sure some would call it hell, but others would probably be content slaying heretics for all eternity

I would think that, considering that Sigmar's realm is a Valhalla of sorts, that eternal war and heretic smiting is not their idea of Hell. It seems that it would actually be perceived as a great reward for those who get the honor of serving as one of the Eternals. Then again, maybe it's one of those things where, slowly over time, you're stripped of all emotion and feeling, where your sensations are slowly eroded until all you know and all that can rouse any form of feeling anything from within is righteous anger, violence and war. It also begs to question "where does the line get drawn between what Sigmar does, and what Khorne does, and what really makes them that different?". " Slay the heretic" and "Blood for the Blood God" aren't really miles apart.

I've seen a lot of people saying that is a pretty straightforward "good vs evil" type of situation, but with a little reflection on the factions, it would indeed seem to go much deeper than that.

This was an interesting topic you've provided, KK. Now we just NEED MOAR from GW so we can actually fill in the blanks and flesh out who and what the Eternals really are. I look forward to the incoming material.

10 of 15 years ago, I might have believed GW could write the Sigmarines with that much thoughtfulness and nuance.

These days I can't muster even the slightest hint of confidence that they'll be anything more than "Super-Awesome-Sigmar-Friends! Buy your new Super-Awesome-Sigmar-Friends! models to play out being a Super-Awesome Friend of Sigmar, the unequivocally good guy faction, and smite the evil Chaosmatrons, so evil they make Satan himself cringe with fear! But watch out, Brave Sigmar-Friend! If your evil Chaosmatron enemy has a moustache long enough to twirl archly like a silent movie villain, his Chaosmatron forces will become even more evil! Be sure to strike a noble and heroic pose and exclaim 'Sigmaaar, HOOOOOOOOOOO!" as loud as you can in order to upgrade your Super-Awesome-Sigmar-Friends! with the power of AWESOME!"

I respectfully disagree. Having read a fair chunk of the newer 40k stuff (not so much of the HH series, though I plan on catching up at some point) and all of the End Times material, I feel confident that they're more than able to kick out some quality work. I may not be interested in everything they do, but that which has piqued my interest I've found thourghly enjoyable. Everything may not be consciously written to be deep or thought provoking, but that doesn't mean that there's not any underlying themes that can gathered from it. Things are what you make of them, and if all you do is look at it and expect nothing more than... Whatever you said, that all you'll see. If youre willing to drop your kneejerk intrepretation, and look a bit closer, you may get more out of it. Then again, maybe you won't, and in anu case, that doesn't mean that it can't still just be enjoyable (if a bit shallow). Everything is like that in life, and fiction is no different. There just isn't time in life to bother wasting it on something you don't get anything out of

 Accolade wrote:
Also, isn't the kicker with these guys that they come back a little less each time? Like Beric Dondarrion in ASoIaF?

Bingo - this is not Valhalla! I was pretty struck by the eternal war and decaying self as well, and reminded more of Dante (poet extraordinaire not lord commander) than I expected to be when reading GW stuff.

Related to your first post Kid, back when I was playing 40k I kept developing the fluff for my CSM as the years went on. My boys were nearly all renegades from other undisclosed chapters, with a handful of noise cultists and a sorcerer or two, which left them much more grounded than the usual frothing bands of nutters you generally see depicted. Long winding story short, I was increasingly embracing the 'Chaos as good guys' thread, while being quite aware of the inevitable tragedy of my crew of anti-heroes. Like you say, death, spawndom, daemonhood and death are the fruits of Chaos.

But then 5E hit and I headed back to Fantasy, leaving my lads somewhere off the Eastern Fringe ...

- Salvage

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Because you're supposed to be scared of demons but to meet a real angel, an aspect of God would mean losing in an instant every illusion you cling to.

You say this and all I can think of is Mr. Terrific from DC. Someone asks him how he can still be an atheist with everything he's seen and the fact he's teamed up with actual, for real angels before, and his response is basically "They could actually be angels, but that doesn't mean I have to believe or accept that "God" sent them or that what I believe is wrong."

That's a neat concept, Kyoto, and I think you're right - it's pretty cool! Have you read Jeff Somers book the "Electric Church"? This idea reminds me of it

(Note, the language is pretty insane in that book, but the characters are extremely well developed. I recommend reading the first book only, as the series goes a bit downhill from there... but the first book is incredible!)

Another thought, the nice thing about Order vs Chaos is we mortals can easily see why we don't want either side to win.

With the arrival of the SigMarines the mere mortals who make up the Planet Warhammer (or whatever the new world is called) are basically Polish/Korean/Iraqi villagers caught between two marauding superpowers fighting for reasons we barely understand.

We're potentially useful proxies at best, cannon fodder, meat shields, a hinderance, food or fuel at worst.

With luck though, with luck, we just might be the Afghans or the Vietnamese.

Afghans/Vietnamese? Not sure why we would want to end up as either of them.

I do wonder exactly how the Mortal realms fit into everything. GW has said that the old nations as we know them have gotten their final send off, and to expect totally new models and rules going forward. I think that means we are going to see units merged/separated, and of course things will disappear and new things will appear.

That all being said, after the End Times, Sigmar latched on to the Sigmarite, etc, etc and there was peace in the new realms for a while until Chaos showed up. And now Chaos has taken some significant amount of the mortal realms, which is what leads Sigmar to create the Eternals, and take the fight back.

If you REALLY want to go historical, its more like a certain religion taking over the a certain place, and another religion trying to take it back. And the people of the land go one way, another, or simply just get killed in the middle of it all.

We have next-to-no knowledge of the AoS cosmology: Sigmar floated in the void(?)/Warp and found some new and old Gods. Finally one amongst the mighties he found the mortal realm and guided the residents -- so do the Skavens, Orcs, Elves and Lizardmen just stop bickering? Are they even genetically of the same root as their predecessors? How the did Sigmar accomplished that? How do the other Gods come into the play? Why does elite unit know cost the same as your peasant troops to train and maintain? How did GW release a 4-page free rulebook as it is, and expected it to increase sale for the upcoming AoS release?

Eh.

acrimonger wrote:
Afghans/Vietnamese? Not sure why we would want to end up as either of them.

The Vietnamese have seen the backs of the Chinese, the Japanese, the French and the Americans.

The Afghans have given a royal send off to the Moguls, the Brits, the Soviets and (soon) the Americans.

They both paid a huge price in blood and neither is a country I'd want to live in but militarily they're the proverbial pawns who took out the queen.

You're out there committing monsterous deeds, screaming your love for chaos, losing your sanity, your body shifting in painful unnatural ways, HOLY @#$%^ THERE'S A 4' SPIKE GROWING OUT OF MY SHOULDER THROUGH MY SKIN OW! OW! OW! and your final reward?

this has a slight vibe from District 9 going on... my way to try to comprehend the issue in a way...