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I've been looking into getting into tournaments again, and I am finding it difficult to find a non ITC event. I'm wondering if there are others out there that are just as frustrated? Is there a resource or a way to find non ITC events?

Note: I'm not here to downplay or insult the ITC. I just don't like their system, format, restrictions, and having difficulty finding alternatives.

Depends on where you are located. So posting your location might help.

I thought I had updated it. I was in NV, and recently relocated back up to UT. Im in a more populated area, so it's nice to have more events, stores, options available, but the events are ITC.

All interest goes out the window.

We have been using this year's Throne of Skulls format and everyone has been very pleased. Basically no restrictions and no house rules. The winner is chosen from players with the most favorite opponent votes which makes it one of the best comp systems ever. You get to play with the models you bought and painted and are encouraged to be a pleasurable opponent.

1875 point Armies
All models must be fully painted and based
Army Selection – Battle Forged or Unbound
All rules for 40K including GW, WD, BL, and FW – no Horus Heresy
Official GW and FW FAQs only!

Throne of Skulls Steel Fury pack:
http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Steel-Fury-Event-Pack.pdf

I am near Philadelphia, PA and we have a wide selection of play styles around here. There are some of the ITC/NOVA events plus tons of other formats including Kill-team, minimum restrictions, smaller points, tons of restrictions, Zone Mortalis, and more. There is something for everyone. It seems that many players who got burnt out on the hyper-competitive events are starting to come back to the game as long as it does not have to be in just one or two ways to play.

T

 Tironum wrote:
We have been using this year's Throne of Skulls format and everyone has been very pleased. Basically no restrictions and no house rules. The winner is chosen from players with the most favorite opponent votes which makes it one of the best comp systems ever. You get to play with the models you bought and painted and are encouraged to be a pleasurable opponent.

1875 point Armies
All models must be fully painted and based
Army Selection – Battle Forged or Unbound
All rules for 40K including GW, WD, BL, and FW – no Horus Heresy
Official GW and FW FAQs only!

Throne of Skulls Steel Fury pack:
http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Steel-Fury-Event-Pack.pdf

I am near Philadelphia, PA and we have a wide selection of play styles around here. There are some of the ITC/NOVA events plus tons of other formats including Kill-team, minimum restrictions, smaller points, tons of restrictions, Zone Mortalis, and more. There is something for everyone. It seems that many players who got burnt out on the hyper-competitive events are starting to come back to the game as long as it does not have to be in just one or two ways to play.

T

Per above, you usually just have to do some digging. Also, there is a common misconception that all ITC events use the LVO/BAO missions and format, which is not accurate, nor required by ITC scoring. I.E., the NOVA Open's format is substantially different from LVO/BAO, but it is still an ITC event.

So, out in Utah, it is certainly possible that some of the events you'd like to attend which are ITC are not using the ITC missions/format.

The only thing "ITC event" means for sure is that scores will be sent in. For example, H'ard boys tournament in Florida is 2500 points unbound, and is an ITC event.

I'm aware that ITC events don't necessarily mean ITC Scenarios. The Scenarios are the main deal breaker for me. I could care less about the scoring or not, it really only matters to those who support the ITC. Everything else I can accept whether I agree with it or not. Again, not trying to be offensive toward the ITC. I'm being honest and I really don't want to get trolled.

It would be convenient if they posted that so that I wouldn't have to call or ask everytime I see it. Even with me calling/asking, I haven't come across one that hasn't used them. I have come across a few that hadn't decided, but later found out they ended up running them. I didn't go and not sure why they didn't decide, unless they left it up to a vote once all the players are there.

The NOVA/Feast of Blades/Adepticon, etc events, are all in the same boat, with the main difference that those are fairly limited to their events, or their qualifiers. So they're not as common as the ITC events, and easier to attend/avoid.

I just don't want every tourney to be an ITC event. While I feel I'm in the minority on this, I can't be the only one experiencing this.

I would check with local stores. 

Here is a list of the ITC events. Whether they are actually running ITC rules, you will have to check on their links:


https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/


Any other tournaments not on the list, you're just going to have to call and find out.

 Akar wrote:
I'm aware that ITC events don't necessarily mean ITC Scenarios. The Scenarios are the main deal breaker for me. I could care less about the scoring or not, it really only matters to those who support the ITC. Everything else I can accept whether I agree with it or not. Again, not trying to be offensive toward the ITC. I'm being honest and I really don't want to get trolled.

It would be convenient if they posted that so that I wouldn't have to call or ask everytime I see it. Even with me calling/asking, I haven't come across one that hasn't used them. I have come across a few that hadn't decided, but later found out they ended up running them. I didn't go and not sure why they didn't decide, unless they left it up to a vote once all the players are there.

The NOVA/Feast of Blades/Adepticon, etc events, are all in the same boat, with the main difference that those are fairly limited to their events, or their qualifiers. So they're not as common as the ITC events, and easier to attend/avoid.

I just don't want every tourney to be an ITC event. While I feel I'm in the minority on this, I can't be the only one experiencing this.

Why are the scenarios a deal breaker for you? I tend to prefer the ETC format myself, but on the whole the BAO/LVO scenarios are pretty balanced and fun to play. I just played their updated versions at Wargamescon and found them very enjoyable and manageable to play a full game inside the time limits. Do you have any specific concerns about the scenarios?

If you're so adamant against ITC scenarios, you're probably out of luck. Not everyone does them, but even non ITC events tend to use similar scenarios, so if you don't like ITC you probably won't like many other event's formats.

Akar, be encouraged!

My FLGS (a busy one for 40k, being in Los Angeles) had a couple BAO/ITC mission practice RTTs this spring, but the other monthly RTTs were ... other things.

Plus, you could talk to the local players and TO! Offer your TO to help with alternatives.

1. Throw-Back: you can still hunt down and find 3e missions, easily adaptable
2. Custom missions (don't go too nuts)
3. Mix it up. Ask that maybe Round 1 is an ITC, and then Round 2 be straight up Book Mission, etc.

Go and play, and be sure to socialize.

Although, being Utah, with Utah's alcohol regulations, having a beer ... *sigh*. Like making love in a canoe.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Why are the scenarios a deal breaker for you? I tend to prefer the ETC format myself, but on the whole the BAO/LVO scenarios are pretty balanced and fun to play.

This is not an opinion I share. I've been to a few places where I would show up for a p/u game, agree to play, then pull out the book to roll the scenario and get the comment 'Oh, we only play the ITC missions here'. I never question why, just ask if we could play the Standard missions, some say yes, others say no. I've been fortunate enough to eventually find players who will play the Book Missions regardless of their feelings about the ITC stuff. Other times I sit there for a few hours, then pack up and go home, which really only sucks when I'm visiting a place that I won't be returning to.

The only time there is a real conflict is when someone gets all self-righteous in defense of the ITC, and then proceeds to condemn me for not wanting to play something that is 'fair and balanced'. It's something that I REALLY want to avoid here and see if anyone else feels the same, or has the same frustrations. I don't feel they're fair or balanced. I've played them enough times either through people approaching me asking if they can play because they're practicing, or in the odd occasion, where I wanted to roll dice really bad. NEVER had a good experience. The players have been GREAT no matter where I play. I don't care if people have the opinion that they're 'Fair', just respect that I think they aren't. I've never had fun actually playing any of the scenarios, and that's the only aspect of any game that my opponents actually feel from me.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Do you have any specific concerns about the scenarios?

I have a fairly long list about the entire format. They are my opinion, and reasons why I try to avoid ITC stuff. It's also become a 'guide' for what I am looking for in any 7th ed. event. Either way, I'm taking my stand and not posting them here. It's not the place, since I'm not here to trash the ITC, it's format, or it's creators/players/supporters. I've done so in the past in other places, and it never turns out well. If you're REALLY interested in chatting about it, feel free to PM me, but it's not a discussion I wish to have on here. Even as I type some of these responses, I'm having to cut myself off and some comments might still get through. Just to be clear, I'm not here to BnW about the ITC.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Akar, be encouraged!

Plus, you could talk to the local players and TO! Offer your TO to help with alternatives.

Thank you, and it's a bit more than just playing. I MIGHT go back to being a TO, once life gets settled down a bit. I'd rather play, but several players from years ago are still here and have been asking if I'll do it again. I've been out it for a while, but I wanted to attend a few and see the players side first. All I'm finding is ITC events, which I already know I won't run, and what prompted this post in the first place.

 Brothererekose wrote:
1. Throw-Back: you can still hunt down and find 3e missions, easily adaptable
2. Custom missions (don't go too nuts)
3. Mix it up. Ask that maybe Round 1 is an ITC, and then Round 2 be straight up Book Mission, etc.

1 - While unpacking my stuff I did find my 'Book of Missions'. They're missions that I've kept from the 3e-5e events that I've attended over the years. YES they are easily adaptable, and I'm considering going that route, just working in Objectives for some of them is interesting, and Maelstrom is a whole different ball game.
2. Here is where the ITC missions come in. They're already Custom, and they're pretty good.
3. Great Idea, but it's been covered. Mixing it up doesn't really work. I had a very good chat one night about this with some other 40k players. One normal gaming night, they were running a small Highlander event using the ITC missions. I was there and several people asked why I wasn't playing. There were an even number of players, and to the TO's credit we had a VERY good chat about what needed to change to get me interested in playing in the future. It became more of a 'How to we update the ITC missions to allow all of 7th?'. It's more work than it could be worth. The ITC missions are linked to the ITC format and rules, and don't really work when it comes to scoring. Either you have to ignore ITC additional rules, or just cut out 2/3 of the ITC scenarios. Rather than destroy the tested system that the Frontline gaming guys built, it was just easier to run the Book Missions.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Go and play, and be sure to socialize.

Although, being Utah, with Utah's alcohol regulations, having a beer ... *sigh*. Like making love in a canoe.
;

I've never really had a bad opponent, no matter where I go. Those that took the ITC only stance, I never really played. If I don't expect to have fun playing the ITC missions, I don't hold it against anyone that refuses to play the Book Missions because they aren't fun. So that isn't an issue. If it's not fun, then don't play. I'm caught in that no-mans land where I want to have fun, play in a few Tourneys, but can't do that at an ITC event.

Yeah, the UT Alcohol thing sucks, but I have ways. Out of COMPLETE curiosity, what shop are you at in LA. I used to live down there and still make a few trips a year when I can. Might pop in next trip.

Hi Akar! I actually am an employee of Frontline Gaming and even we don't use ITC format every time we play at the store, lol. Yes, a lot of tournaments have been signing on to be an ITC event since it boosts attendance with people excited to take part in an event that will earn them points towards their national score. If you are having trouble finding an event that isn't an ITC event perhaps you could take this as an opportunity to run a local event at your FLG where you can play book missions and have no restrictions? No one is faulting you for not liking the ITC format and I do feel your frustration at not being able to find an event that is not an ITC event. Good luck!

you clearly have strong opinions, maybe you should organize your own tournament, or help someone nearby.

You have yet to say why you dislike them.

Thank You for the reply Kimchi. I'm aware that the ITC isn't standard at Frontline, I've watched some batreps at what I believe was Frontline. It's kind of funny when I've visited places that have adopted it as the norm. I really like the setup that the ITC has, and I agree with some of the ways they've chosen to deal with things. Yes, I do have some strong opinions on the ITC, but that's not why I posted.

There are a few things I wanted to know, and I'll admit that I've gotten sidetracked.

1) Is anyone else as frustrated with finding non ITC, or any other events, as I am? I already knew that I was in the minority when I posted, but was trying to find out if there were others and what they do.

2) One thing the ITC does really well is provide a hub for cross promoting events. For anyone wanting to attend ITC events only, it's great. Go to the site, find the event, book your flight. I miss that from the 3rd ed days, where you could go on to GW site, and find RTT events. I've been out of the loop for a while and was wondering if anyone knew of another place to find tourneys. I can check here, and other forums as well, but maybe I missed something.

Thank you everyone either way. Yes, I will probably run some events, and tentatively got one in the works, but I was hoping to play some before sitting on the organizing side. So I guess a third reason is that I'm looking for events that use something other than the ITC, so I can attend and see how it goes. I didn't think about this until reading some of the responses, so I did gain something out of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You have yet to say why you dislike them.

Not why I'm here.

So you say several times that people only ant to use ITC evens, but never explain why that is bad?
They are well tested and focused grouped scenarios that are way better then the book missions

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So you say several times that people only ant to use ITC evens, but never explain why that is bad?
They are well tested and focused grouped scenarios that are way better then the book missions

Thank you for your opinion.

Still isn't covered under points 1 or 2 about what I want to know, and why I posted. So I'm choosing to stay as on topic as I can.

Akar, bravo to sticking to your point. I think it's hard for people to understand that you not liking a format is NOT the same as you seeking to generate discussion on why you don't like it.

I also think it's probably important to note that no one format is "perfect" or the best or right for everyone. Thinking any given format is the "best" and advocating it as such is buying into the toxicity generated by how open GW's made the game from a structural standpoint (Though thankfully not as wide open as AoS).

By presenting the game as a "DIY" edition, it inherently creates an environment in which people will gravitate toward personal preferences, whether that's ITC, NOVA, Throne of Skulls, etc. Additionally, partisans of these formats and more youthful and arrogant organizers (talking about my old self right now) will directly or passive aggressively talk smack about other formats while they're at it in an attempt to reinforce their decision as far as what they think the "right" or "best" way is.

Long and short - the game by nature creates many different ways to play along with the associated desire on the part of "X way" partisans to try and stir up discussion and argue why their preference is best. Bravo to Akar for generally avoiding that part of simply trying to find ways to enjoy the game differently.

MVBrandt wrote:
Akar, bravo to sticking to your point. I think it's hard for people to understand that you not liking a format is NOT the same as you seeking to generate discussion on why you don't like it.

I also think it's probably important to note that no one format is "perfect" or the best or right for everyone. Thinking any given format is the "best" and advocating it as such is buying into the toxicity generated by how open GW's made the game from a structural standpoint (Though thankfully not as wide open as AoS).

By presenting the game as a "DIY" edition, it inherently creates an environment in which people will gravitate toward personal preferences, whether that's ITC, NOVA, Throne of Skulls, etc. Additionally, partisans of these formats and more youthful and arrogant organizers (talking about my old self right now) will directly or passive aggressively talk smack about other formats while they're at it in an attempt to reinforce their decision as far as what they think the "right" or "best" way is.

Long and short - the game by nature creates many different ways to play along with the associated desire on the part of "X way" partisans to try and stir up discussion and argue why their preference is best. Bravo to Akar for generally avoiding that part of simply trying to find ways to enjoy the game differently.

Thank you Brandt!

I still refer back to our discussion about the NOVA format for insight from time to time. It's actually helped me see the good in the ITC a lot easier than before, so any crusade I might have had against it isn't going to work. Just either choose to go or don't play. As stated by several people above, I might be out of luck for the time being, and stuck not playing. No sense in going to any event if I'm not going to have fun.

Thread titles spark discussion. If you don't want to talk about your frustrations regarding ITC then I would change the title to make it more clear you are looking for non-ITC events near Utah. Otherwise you are going to continue to draw those who want to discuss your ITC frustrations.

On the stated topic. The issue for many TOs is it is easy to just grab a known, well liked format and go with it. A TO that goes his own way is more likely to get flak from the community and have a much harder time drawing people from outside his circle. It is also a surprising amount of work to build a format from scratch -- if doing it right. I speak from experience.

So instead of looking on a world wide forum for the slim chance of a non-ITC events in your local area, I suggest going to your local community and discussing putting on an alternative event. Maybe even TO it yourself the first go around or at leaast offer to help in some way. That is your best bet in my opinion of getting what you want.

 Akar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So you say several times that people only ant to use ITC evens, but never explain why that is bad?
They are well tested and focused grouped scenarios that are way better then the book missions

Thank you for your opinion.

Still isn't covered under points 1 or 2 about what I want to know, and why I posted. So I'm choosing to stay as on topic as I can.

So, you spark a debate about ITC format, that you dislike it and do not wish to participate it, fan the flames a bit with more opinions, but dont give your opinion on why ITC missions are bad.
I smell something here

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Akar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So you say several times that people only ant to use ITC evens, but never explain why that is bad?
They are well tested and focused grouped scenarios that are way better then the book missions

Thank you for your opinion.

Still isn't covered under points 1 or 2 about what I want to know, and why I posted. So I'm choosing to stay as on topic as I can.

So, you spark a debate about ITC format, that you dislike it and do not wish to participate it, fan the flames a bit with more opinions, but dont give your opinion on why ITC missions are bad.
I smell something here

It's not relevant. That isn't what he started the thread to discuss.
He's been extremely clear about that.
While I'm curious myself to hear reasons, he's probably had this discussion like 20 times. He said you can PM him if you really want to hear the issue.

So, dont mention you dislike things if you are not interested in explaining.

The 'debate', and purpose of the post was about finding events that don't use the ITC format, if I was the only one who was frustrated, and if there were any resources to help me find non ITC events outside of checking FLGS stores or forums like these. I'm not here to complain about the ITC, but how to deal with the fact that it is so successful, that avoiding it has become problematic.

The impression that I'm getting is that you're fixated on 'What could possibly be wrong with the ITC?' Please feel free to start a separate thread if you insist on discussing it. Or even search for one of the ones that already exist. Don't be surprised if I don't reply though as there would be no point. My experience with the format hasn't been enjoyable and it's all been discussed where that was the topic.

You'll also notice that this isn't a 'Why isn't the ITC standard 40k thread.' I'm not out to convert anyone, which would be the point of those threads if you're not an ITC organizer trying to improve the format. I'm not going to turn this into one of those threads. True, I've mentioned that I dislike the ITC, and I have slipped, but felt it relevant to the topic. Why do I need to explain it at all?

Then why mention it at all? Why mention you dislike ITC when you are not gonna say why. If you are gonna come in, say you dont like it, give numerous examples of various people only wanting to play ITC, but not tell us why you do not like ITC maybe they could improve it.
Im telling you now, finding ITC events is gonna be a pain. People only really want to go to those events because, in the sorry state 40k is in, they offer a baseline and a familier thing. You are unlikely going to find a non-itc event, and are better off trying it more

I have never been in a shop where all they will play is itc missions. Sounds ludicrous to me.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then why mention it at all? Why mention you dislike ITC when you are not gonna say why. If you are gonna come in, say you dont like it, give numerous examples of various people only wanting to play ITC, but not tell us why you do not like ITC maybe they could improve it.
Im telling you now, finding ITC events is gonna be a pain. People only really want to go to those events because, in the sorry state 40k is in, they offer a baseline and a familier thing. You are unlikely going to find a non-itc event, and are better off trying it more

I'd let it go, hsm.


@Akar
Game Empire Pasadena.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then why mention it at all? Why mention you dislike ITC when you are not gonna say why. If you are gonna come in, say you dont like it, give numerous examples of various people only wanting to play ITC, but not tell us why you do not like ITC maybe they could improve it.
Im telling you now, finding ITC events is gonna be a pain. People only really want to go to those events because, in the sorry state 40k is in, they offer a baseline and a familier thing. You are unlikely going to find a non-itc event, and are better off trying it more

I'd let it go, hsm.

No, he responds and says "I have an answer, but I aint gonna tell ya" No. I need an answer.