Tyranid Info , [content deleted] .......

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**sirisaacnuton**

lixulana wrote:
sirisaacnuton wrote:That's the big problem I found when testing the Spores...a lot of times I had much better targets than what I had to shoot at. Like the side of the next Battlewagon instead of the front of the closest, or at the Trukk right beside it.

All in all, my big complaint with the new stuff done with the codex is that some of it just doesn't make sense. The Tyrannofex is a particular example. It has an option to pay points to "upgrade" it's Hellhound gun (essentially) to a 20 shot weapon at S4 AP5 with a range of 12". Ok, but wait...average rolling with his BS3 means 10 S4 hits at something 12" away...you could get close to that many hits from being able to put a flamer template oriented anyway you want within 12". And even if you get more hits with the S4 gun, a few extra hits don't make up for S4 AP5 versus S6 AP4 ignoring cover. Unless something was mistranslated (and it'd be hard to mistranslate the range numbers or S) then that weapon option doesn't even make sense. There's no reason to bother with it.

Or crushing claws. Putting Crushing Claws on a Carnifex gives it +d3 extra attacks...ok, slightly better than what it used to do. But wait, since you're dropping a pair of Scything Talons to take it, you're swapping out 4 attacks rerolling all misses for 6 attacks (on average) only rerolling 1's. Considering the WS3, it'll almost never be hitting on better than 4's (other than if the Tyrant gets off the WS1 power), so the loss of the rerolls to 2's and 3's completely offsets the extra attacks. If you roll a 1 on your d3, you're actually worse off than you were with 2x ST. With a 3 on it you're better, but with a 2 it's a marginal change, certainly not worth the point cost of the upgrades.

Those are the things that bother me about the codex. There are little random things here and there that just don't make sense...like no one even gave any thought to actually playing these units.

carnifex swings asuming 4+ to hit as not alot of stuff out there is ws 7+

2x scything 4 attacks = 2 hit 2 reroll = 3 hits 75%

1 scything one other = 4 attack = 2 hit + 2 misses re roll 1's = 2.16 hits

1 scything 1 crushing = base 4 = 2.16 hits + 2 crushing = 1.08 = 3.24 hits.

looks like scything crushing nets you .24 hits a turn more.

Yeah, I crunched the numbers. I know that the Claws on average net you slightly more hits than without...but only slightly. If the claws net you .24 hits a turn more, you're looking at a fairly expensive upgrade that will on average net you 1 additional hit every 4 rounds of combat or so. It would seem to me like 4 rounds of combat is about the best a Carnifex could ever hope of seeing in an average game, thanks to being slow, so maybe 1 more hit in the game...not worth points that could get me an extra Ymgarl Stealer, or almost 2 regular Stealers, or half a Hive Guard, etc. IMO anyway. In addition, it makes the Fex worse at trying to rip open tanks moving more than 6", as having the rerolls to all misses is much better than 2 extra attacks if you're fishing for 6's than 4+'s.

All in all, it's a massively underwhelming option for the Fex. Which is a shame, because (a) I think they look kinda cool, (b) early rumors indicated they would be pretty awesome, and (c) a CC/ST Fex is front and center on the Codex. It's not utterly useless, but I don't think it's worth bothering with at the point cost, as its benefits are generally pretty marginal (and even despite to the marginal benefits, it does still have its drawbacks...restricting you to swinging at PF initiative, as opposed to without the claws, a Fex with FC could be swinging at I4 on the charge).

Now, that having been said, the math on the Claws looks better if you can hit the target with the WS1 psychic power first, but you'll often have to ram it past Hoods/Runic Weapons/SitW/RoWarding.

Frankly, I don't see much that entices me to run CC options on the Fex at all, other than the cheapness. You could give him 2 shooting weapons and make him formidable at range and he still has 5 S9 attacks on the charge. No rerolls, but I think the shooting more than makes up for it.

**Shep**

They prety uch made CC fexes pointless...

But they had to, to make room for the trygon. The fex comes into its own as long range fire support/suppression with land raider busting counter-assault capabilities.

He really should have either a venom cannon/strangelthorn cannon and scything talons or be a dakkafex.

The good news on crushing claws is that they are actually a worthwhile upgrade on tervigons. Tervies don't have +2 initiative on the charge, and with only 3 base attacks they get a much bigger boost in CC power.

**Davor**

Gaunt Gaunt Gaunt. Sorry, about that, I never knew it was a Termagant just till recently. I like the sound of Termagaunt better. Gant sounds so anoying, yuck.

Toe-Mae-Toe Toe-ma-Toe
Poe-Tae-Toe Poe-ta-Toe

Both the same but sounding differently. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

**sirisaacnuton**

Shep wrote:They prety uch made CC fexes pointless...

But they had to, to make room for the trygon. The fex comes into its own as long range fire support/suppression with land raider busting counter-assault capabilities.

He really should have either a venom cannon/strangelthorn cannon and scything talons or be a dakkafex.

The good news on crushing claws is that they are actually a worthwhile upgrade on tervigons. Tervies don't have +2 initiative on the charge, and with only 3 base attacks they get a much bigger boost in CC power.

True...I didn't even consider the fact that an uber-CC Carnifex that can drop pod renders completely moot their new hotness model.

I've been playtesting Dakkafexes, but had a random thought recently to give a shot to Dev/VC...gives him something to do the first turn besides running, gives me some long range shooting in case of shenanigans like Lootas in Spearhead deployment, gives me extra tank-busting capability (because against Guard and some SM the 3 Elite slots won't be enough)... and it's still pretty killy against infantry, as a 9/4 small blast is not the worst thing in the world to hit them with. Also provides a nice tool for ID'ing T4 models *cough*Zoeys/Warriors*cough*.

**Hollismason**

Yeah the spore pod is kind of iffy thing; its a monstrous creature so it can get some really mass amounts of shots but its at BS2 so meh.

**Ramshackle_Curtis**

What did the Tyranid do when it met Pamela Anderson?

it Lictor.

warpcrafter wrote:I believe that at one time, Genestealers were a completely different army than Tyranids, then GW decided to thrust them together. I would prefer to have the Genestealers and cultists as a completely different force, but what can you do. I also still wish that the Orks could have Cyboars and Madboys.

I agree, but in the end you can proxy it. I have done for a while now. Whats the difference between a gaunt and a brood brother? Not much really. You cant take vehicle, but I guess thats where Apocyclpse comes into its own, just mash your nids and IG together...

You can take cyboars as proxies for bikes and I cant really see many players arguing the toss on that one.

**Railguns**

Venom Cannons really aren't THAT much better at tank killing this time around. They regained the ability to penetrate, but they still have a -1 to the damage table roll and are only one blast shot.

Carnifexes have some of their issues solved by having a pod, but then the cost on an already un-competitively priced model goes even higher when you could just get a Trygon that does the same thing cheaper, and allows further units to come through his tunnel. It's not like both the Trygon and the Carnifex aren't going to sit there and take shots for a turn, and the price on the pod doesn't seem to be justified when all it adds, after an upgrade, is a reasonable strength blast with no ap and tentacles with a 6 inch range. Even better, the Trygon doesn't carry an extra killpoint with it to get into enemy lines.

Edit: Although I am looking forward to abusing the spore mine pre-deployment deepstriking to force opponents to sit where I want them to. Unless they're mech.

**Aduro**

I wonder about the effectiveness of a brood of Fexes packing Barbed Stranglers*. Several mid strength large blasts, being thrown across the table, causing Pinning checks, and then able to lay the smack down when they get into HtH... Use a Tervigon to let them shoot while Running for more funness. That or near bare bones Fexes with no upgrades other than Adrenals and maybe Bio-Plasma would make for an intimidating brood coming across the table at you as well.

*Getting people to call them Stranglethorn Cannons is even less like than people saying Termigant.

**Fateweaver**

I'm going to run a pair of screamer-killers in one slot and a Trygon and Mawloc in the other slot.

440pts for 2 screamer killer fexes with bioplasma, frag grenades, glands and regen but it'll be a damn fun unit to scare people with.

**Gandair**

Termiganigaunts is what I call mine.

Actually, I just call them gaunts *shrug*

On-topic, after reading this thread I'm still slightly confused, am I cutting the top arms off my carnifexs (or whatever the plural is) for tals? I should probably just paint some tals up anyway just in case.

Further, doesn't anyone else feel the venom cannon has become terrible at anti-tank compared to being the bad at anti-tank it was? BS3 meant we hit 3/6 on a die roll and had TWO shots. Now we'll be hitting on an alleged 2/6 with ONE shot. Am I the only one who thought that was worth mentioning because I can't remember reading it anywhere. Talk about the tyrannofex S10 gun, warp lance, and wether or not to use tals or CC is the conversation I see most.

Anti-tank is our biggest weakness and our standard go-to gun got even worse. I have little faith in CC anti-tank, are warp lance and Tyrranofax (spelling idk?) our new ranged AT weapons?

please don't mention melee, I'm looking for speculation on ranged AT only regarding the VC change.

**Saldiven**

Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:What did the Tyranid do when it met Pamela Anderson?

it Lictor.

Lictor?? It hardly even knew her!!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

wyomingfox wrote:Except at BS 3, that is only 10 hits against a DP/GD, 1.6 wounds, and depending on 3+ or 4++, that is .80 or less failed saves. So I don't see this hurting MC either.

His point is still valid. A gun that shoots 20 shots, even at BS 3, has a better chance at effectively damaging smaller or more well spread out units than does a flamer template. The flamer template shines against large numbered and closely spaced units.

For example, the 20 shot gun will do better against a 5 man Terminator squad that is getting within assault range that will the flamer template.

Flamer:

5 hits * (5/6 wound) * (1/6 failed save) = 25/36 dead terminators. <--Being generous and assuming all 5 Terminators are lined up such that the template can hit all of them.

Big shooty gun:

20 shots * (1/2 hit) * (1/2 wound) * (1/6 failed save) = 20/24 dead terminators

The difference is slight, but the point remains that the 20 shot gun is more worthwhile if your point for taking it is to merely eliminate small, deadly threats that have gotten close to the Tyrranosaur (sp?). Consider it more of a point defense weapon than an offensive weapon. Remember, the smaller the incoming unit is, the more the effectiveness of the 20 shot gun eclipses that of the flamer template. The template, can at most have as many hits as their are models in the unit, while the "upgrade" gun can be expected to hit 10 times, but has the chance of hitting 20.

**lord_blackfang**

And it's a moot point either way since anyone taking a Tyrranofex will upgrade to the S10 Capsule Cannon. The other two weapon options can be adequately simulated by much cheaper units.

**Saldiven**

lord_blackfang wrote:And it's a moot point either way since anyone taking a Tyrranofex will upgrade to the S10 Capsule Cannon. The other two weapon options can be adequately simulated by much cheaper units.

Good point; I didn't read all the way through the codex last night; I assumed that the big gun was standard and the other guns were alternate secondary weapons. If you can only have one of each, then, yes, the big gun is the way to go.

**gorgon**

Railguns wrote:Edit: Although I am looking forward to abusing the spore mine pre-deployment deepstriking to force opponents to sit where I want them to. Unless they're mech.

That's not abuse...it's exactly what they're intended for.

**Redemption**

Gandair wrote:Further, doesn't anyone else feel the venom cannon has become terrible at anti-tank compared to being the bad at anti-tank it was? BS3 meant we hit 3/6 on a die roll and had TWO shots. Now we'll be hitting on an alleged 2/6 with ONE shot. Am I the only one who thought that was worth mentioning because I can't remember reading it anywhere. Talk about the tyrannofex S10 gun, warp lance, and wether or not to use tals or CC is the conversation I see most.

Anti-tank is our biggest weakness and our standard go-to gun got even worse. I have little faith in CC anti-tank, are warp lance and Tyrranofax (spelling idk?) our new ranged AT weapons?

please don't mention melee, I'm looking for speculation on ranged AT only regarding the VC change.

The Venom Cannon is a Blast now, so you'll hit a bit more than 1/3 of the time, considering you can probably scatter 4-6" (-BS3) and still hit your target, depending on the size of your target. Add the ability to penetrate and you probably are about even with what is was before.

As for new ranged anti-tank, you're forgetting a very important new addition to the army list: the Hive Guard. For 150 points, you get 6 24" BS4 S8 shots that don't require line of sight, on a T6 platform. That's a pretty reliable and cost efficient anti-light armour; ideal for popping open transports so you can assault the fleshy contents with our numerous assault troops in the next assault phase. The Zoanthrope's new Warp Lance is better suited for heavier armour.

And there's some other stuff that can work in a jiffy, such as a Trygon's Bio-electric field (especially if it's amplified, plus the Trygon can easily pop up behind some vehicles for easy access to rear AV10) or some TL Devourers, although those are more suited for anti infantry.

**Hollismason**

I dont see where the Zoanthropes can be split off any more

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other thing is 9 Tyranid Warriors and Alpha Warrior in a pod is kind of keen.

**Aduro**

lord_blackfang wrote:And it's a moot point either way since anyone taking a Tyrranofex will upgrade to the S10 Capsule Cannon. The other two weapon options can be adequately simulated by much cheaper units.

I hate that weapon name more every time I hear it. I'm simply going to call it a Bio Cannon, what the old Exocrine's gun was called.

**Redemption**

Hollismason wrote:I dont see where the Zoanthropes can be split off any more

Lictors and Zoanthropes are indeed no longer deployed individually, unless you take them in seperate FoC slots.

Aduro wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:And it's a moot point either way since anyone taking a Tyrranofex will upgrade to the S10 Capsule Cannon. The other two weapon options can be adequately simulated by much cheaper units.

I hate that weapon name more every time I hear it. I'm simply going to call it a Bio Cannon, what the old Exocrine's gun was called.

Yeah not a fan of the name either. I'm hoping it's just the German version of the name and the English one is better.

The Thorax weapons are named horribly in German as well, with stuff like 'Suck Larvae' and 'Shock Maggots'.

**Aduro**

Hollismason wrote:The other thing is 9 Tyranid Warriors and Alpha Warrior in a pod is kind of keen.

I heard 20 small dudes or 1 Monstrous Creature can fit in a pod. What are the passenger limitations for mid size critters like the Warriors?

**Redemption**

Aduro wrote:
Hollismason wrote:The other thing is 9 Tyranid Warriors and Alpha Warrior in a pod is kind of keen.

I heard 20 small dudes or 1 Monstrous Creature can fit in a pod. What are the passenger limitations for mid size critters like the Warriors?

It's 20 Infantry or 1 Monstrous Creature, so technically you could fit 20 Warriors in a pod. Of course, you'd need 11 Alpha Warriors for that, and even with 1 Alpha Warrior you're looking at an almost 400 point squad before any upgrades.

**Aduro**

Warriors are max Nine? I thought it was a bit more than that... Convenient then because I just made up a brood of nine Warriors the other day as it was all I had on hand for em, figuring I'd add in the missing guys later.

How many points would Nine Warriors and an Alpha, all armed with Boneswords and Deathspitters cept for one with a Barbed Strangler cost?

**Redemption**

Aduro wrote:Warriors are max Nine? I thought it was a bit more than that... Convenient then because I just made up a brood of nine Warriors the other day as it was all I had on hand for em, figuring I'd add in the missing guys later.

How many points would Nine Warriors and an Alpha, all armed with Boneswords and Deathspitters cept for one with a Barbed Strangler cost?

Aye, Warrior brood size is 3-9. And as for your squad, assuming you use a pair of Boneswords instead of the Bonesword & Lash Whip combo (which is more expensive), your total cost would be just under 500 points.

Without a Mycetic Spore that is. And keep in mind that the squad would just scream 'Shoot me with a S8 Large Blast'.

**Aduro**

I'm sure it would, but it would be the lead brood for a Midzilla army, with at least two more units of Warriors and other assorted fun stuff for target saturation.

**Hollismason**

6 Warrrios w/ Boneswords and a pod is like 280 which is a good deal for 18 wounds.

**Slave**

I had a thought.

I was worried about str 8 blast templates with my warriors for a long time, until EW was created.

I then thought about my expensive Chaos maries squads on bikes, and noise marine squads, and blood angel assault squads.

Devestator squads are supposed to smash these. IG battle tanks are supposed to smash these.

Thats what they are for.

In a vacum, then worry. If you play on a board with sparse terrain, then worry.

In the end, after scatter, LOS issues, missing with the rolls, etc, Warriors are fine. If you have any number of aquads, these bad ass high strength weapons need to pick targets.

Its unlikely that the squad gets wiped out in one turn. If it does, then what about the other warrior squads, gene stealers, poison weilding gaunts, screamer killers, etc.

In the end, you should be forced to respect high strength blast weapons wielded by specialists that are designed to kill these types of squads.

We lost a get out of jail free card.

**Aduro**

I'm not That worried about the big blasts with my Warriors. They'll be behind Gaunt screens so they'll have a 4+ cover save against most attacks, I'm taking a pair of Venemthropes so they'll have a 5+ vs the indirect stuff. Keep am spread out so they'll only get two or three at best, and use the Alpha with his toughness of 5 for a couple of wound sponges that don't get Insta gibbed by Str8 and you should get there with most of your unit intact.

**Fateweaver**

Yay for sensible posts.

I have to give this forum credit.

Most of the time the title of Whineseer should go to dakka.

So far dakka has had less whine in 23 pages of this thread than warseer has had in 2 pages of thread about the nid codex.

**airmang**

Aduro wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:And it's a moot point either way since anyone taking a Tyrranofex will upgrade to the S10 Capsule Cannon. The other two weapon options can be adequately simulated by much cheaper units.

I hate that weapon name more every time I hear it. I'm simply going to call it a Bio Cannon, what the old Exocrine's gun was called.

Yeah, Capsule Cannon is just the German translation for it. In the English Dex it's called a Rupture Cannon (if i'm not mistaken).

**Hollismason**

People keep talking about how Venomthropes are crap but I really like them. Also, they are infantry so you can put up to 3 in a squad. That's pretty awesome because you can also put a Alpha Warrior wit them.

It also backs up Tyranid warriors with defensive grenades.

Here's your combo though. Death Leaper + venomthrope. With a Podding army thats pretty nifty.

Havng actually sat down and read the codex its pretty awesome with lots and lots of viable builds even if he Carnifex did get the shaft which was disappointing.

**Aduro**

airmang wrote:
Aduro wrote:I hate that weapon name more every time I hear it. I'm simply going to call it a Bio Cannon, what the old Exocrine's gun was called.

Yeah, Capsule Cannon is just the German translation for it. In the English Dex it's called a Rupture Cannon (if i'm not mistaken).

Better, but not by much. I'm too used to calling it a Bio Cannon now.