Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The crunch that goes along with that is pretty hard to navigate. Has been for a long time.

Not really.

Better assault rules in general
Heavy flamers on tacs
Better pistol options on sarges, ASM, and characters
Faster vehicles with more close-ranged shooting
Powerful assault veterans
More mobility while deep striking

Does it well enough already. We need BW to make what we have _better_, but BA certainly already has an identity. And hvaing more options along these lines would help, but not to the point of being "World Eaters, but Loyalist". BA are better than that. If that's all we were, we WOULD lose our identity.

That stuff needs to add up to an "aggressive style" instead of a "speedy death". Until then, we're gimpy vanilla marines. I guess we can call it a dysfunctional identity instead of no identity.

Martel732 wrote:
That stuff needs to add up to an "aggressive style" instead of a "speedy death"

I quote:

 Melissia wrote:
We need GW to make what we have _better_, but BA certainly already has an identity.

Already responded to your complaints, Martel.

I don't know if GW will do that. GW is incredibly inconsistent with Blood Angels. But as BA are right now, they HAVE distinguishing characteristics, we just need them to be made good enough to matter.

PandatheWarrior wrote:
Yeh you were getting an extra squad, was pretty nice mechanic but definetily not easy to applicate

It was a free squad, but you did lose models from your other units which sometimes made for some interesting situations. It was fun rolling to see what models fell to the Death Company. I do remember having my overcharged engines on my Rhinos stalling a lot of times and my Devastators being forced to move and not be able to fire their weapons.

Melissia wrote:Their in-game identity isn't that hard to figure out. They are mostly codex-adherent chapter that is more aggressive in battle.

That's a pretty broad description. Aggressive can mean a lot of things: faster movement, faster in combat, more attacks, stronger attacks, closer deep strike distance, more shots, reroll charges, longer chargers, longer consolidate, etc. Most of that stuff GW has toyed with in one way or another. It's obvious they don't know what the rules should be for Blood Angels either. The best determiner we have of where we'll end up in 8th is the fluff from the rulebook:

Known for their ferocity, the Blood Angels bear within them all that is good and noble, yet their gene-seed also contains a destructive flaw. So must every Blood Angel rein in his fury, holding in abeyance the blood-madness.

Created during the First Founding, the Blood Angels are one of the oldest and proudest of all Space Marine Chapters. In the Great Crusade they established their bloodthirsty zeal, favouring aggressive tactics, close combat and the use of jump packs, and they have maintained this fierce reputation ever since. The Blood Angels are equally noted for their unceasing quest for perfection in all their endeavours – from the flawless execution of a battle plan to the aesthetics of their wargear. Yet for all their honours, for all their storied accomplishments fighting at the forefront of the Imperium’s many wars, the Blood Angels are deeply marred. Since the closing days of the Horus Heresy, when their angelic, winged Primarch, Sanguinius, was viciously killed at the hands of Horus himself, the Blood Angels have been haunted by a curse. That the Sons of Sanguinius fight on, despite the blood rage that seeks to overwhelm them, body and soul, only makes their selfless sacrifice all the nobler. Although held in awe and feared in equal measure by those they protect, the Blood Angels continue to smite the Imperium’s foes, compiling a battle history second to none.

The Black Rage
On the eve of battle, Blood Angels are prone to apocalyptic visions that can plunge them into a spiral of madness. Death is the only release from this malady. It is almost inevitable that this fate will eventually overtake every Blood Angel. This Black Rage is a psychic imprint left by their Primarch Sanguinius’ death. Left in a frenzied state, those warriors suffering from the Black Rage seek only to charge and hack their foes. Over the centuries, the Blood Angels and their successor Chapters have learned how to best wield these warriors, forming them into a Death Company from which these berserkers are hurled into battles that no sane warrior would risk. It is better that they should achieve an honourable death in combat for the cause of the Imperium than face the final stages of uncontrollable fury, turning the once noble warriors into little more than snarling beasts. In the Blood Angels, those suffering from the Black Rage don black armour daubed with red crosses, signifying the wounds of Sanguinius.

However, Black Rage only applies to Death Company, making that paragraph not particularly useful for Blood Angels outside of DC.
Unless you think GW is going to make every BA marine part of death company, which... would be a very unfortunate and saddening turn of events that would honestly make me depressed enough to just make me stop playing them. Probably would make me paint my BA as Raven Guard or something, or sell them to start a new army.

Don't forget, unlike Khornate Berserkers, most Blood Angels do in fact rein in their "blood madness". That's what separates BA from melee-crazy armies. While they do favor jump packs and close combat more than most Marines, they still abide by the codex astartes-- or try to, insomuch as the temptation of the Red Thirst allows them to.

Theirs is a struggle against bloodlust, while a lot of people here say "just give, let the blood flow and stack the skulls high". That's not BA. That's WE.

I think this thread is the wrong place to discuss BA lore and identity. Currently our special rules do not separate us enough from regular SM to warrant a truly distinct playstyle in a competitive setting. That will change when the codex is released. How those special rules will be implemented remains to be seen but that discussion does not belong in the tactica thread.

"That will change when the codex is released."

We assume and hope.

I hope instead of resurrecting Sanguinius they have The Sanguinor hulk out due to the increased warp energies and he becomes a cross between Celestine and a Primarch.

Yeah, I love Sanguinius but I'd rather he stay dead (or at least in 40k, give me his 30k model already).

Hes part of what makes Blood Angels interesting in 40k and to bring him back would be...ugh.

Hello again BA experts, I'm putting together a list and I'm looking at my Tactical squads..

I know some people love them and some hate them but I happen to have the models that I have.

Question is this.. Heavy flamers, they always hit, so the heavy -1 to hit doesn't apply?

I can disembark my heavy flamer dudes out of the razorback and light them up for sure?

gkos wrote:
Hello again BA experts, I'm putting together a list and I'm looking at my Tactical squads..

I know some people love them and some hate them but I happen to have the models that I have.

Question is this.. Heavy flamers, they always hit, so the heavy -1 to hit doesn't apply?

I can disembark my heavy flamer dudes out of the razorback and light them up for sure?

Yes they auto hit.

Yep. They automatically hit. You roll for number of hits, not if they hit. It makes BA tacticals hit hard at short range.

sossen wrote:
I think this thread is the wrong place to discuss BA lore and identity. Currently our special rules do not separate us enough from regular SM to warrant a truly distinct playstyle in a competitive setting. That will change when the codex is released. How those special rules will be implemented remains to be seen but that discussion does not belong in the tactica thread.

Fair point. I started a thread over on Bolter and Chainsword if anyone wishes to carry on the conversation there.

Heavy flamers are unfortunately not that impressive for the cost. They do autohit, which completely negates the -1 to hit, but Str 5 is not a very good strength for a horde-clearing weapon in 8th. At least, not right now.

Yeah, I'm not going back to BnC. Regardless...

Came up with this while idly messing around with

Captain w/TH
Librarian w/FAxe, BP
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
Razorback w/TLAC
Razorback w/TLAC
Razorback w/TLAC
Predator w/TLAC, HB sponsons

I think this could work nicely at the points level it's at (1000 points), with higher points levels allowing for more long-ranged anti-tank and dedicated assault units to be added on to this core. Though a Lieutenant from the SM codex would actually be better here than a Captain (rerolling wounds is more valuable than to-hits unless you're trying to buff the razorbacks and predator), we don't have that yet unless we want to borrow from the SM book (which GW said we can do, but not everyone seems to care).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy flamers are unfortunately not that impressive for the cost. They do autohit, which completely negates the -1 to hit, but Str 5 is not a very good strength for a horde-clearing weapon in 8th

Against Marines, Necrons, or Orks it's pretty solid. Wounds on a 3+, reduces armor save by one, 3-4 hits on average-- that's better htan a heavy bolter, at the cost of range and some points.

"Against Marines, Necrons, or Orks it's pretty solid. "

Agreed, but those factions are fading in my meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Agreed, but those factions are fading in my meta.

Marines aren't fading in any of the the warhammer communities in my area. They're always popular.

Necrons are though, but they've kinda been struggling for a while now, as have Orks.

Regardless, I think heavy flamers are a bit overpriced, but they are certainly much more adaptable than normal flamers in the hands of a tactical squad. Then again, I also think Flamers are overpriced, so go figure.

Most marine players have another list, which they are proceeding to use this edition. I realize overall marines are still popular, but the failure of primaris made a lot of people switch over to their other lists.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, I'm not going back to BnC. Regardless...

Spoiler:

Came up with this while idly messing around with

Captain w/TH
Librarian w/FAxe, BP
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
Razorback w/TLAC
Razorback w/TLAC
Razorback w/TLAC
Predator w/TLAC, HB sponsons

I think this could work nicely at the points level it's at (1000 points), with higher points levels allowing for more long-ranged anti-tank and dedicated assault units to be added on to this core.

Heavy Flamer and Combi-Flamer could be switched out for Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma

"Against Marines, Necrons, or Orks it's pretty solid. "

Agreed, but those factions are fading in my meta.

My son plays Necrons.. I need to toast him

 Frozocrone wrote:
Heavy Flamer and Combi-Flamer could be switched out for Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma

Not really; the HF/CF hits more times on average, and does more damage, unless the plasmagun overcharges, and the overcharge requires your force to be clustered around a captain.

HF+CF without any buffs deals 1.972 kills at 8" against MEQ (assuming an average of 3.5 hits each, plus firing boltgun at -1)
Against GEQ this becomes 3.94 kills.

Plas+Combiplas buffed by a captain deals 1.728 kills at 12" against MEQ firing standard shots.
Against GEQ this becomes 2.593 kills.

Plas+Combiplas buffed by a captain deals slightly less* than 2.16 kills at 12" against MEQ firing overcharge shots, doubled against two-wound models.
Against GEQ this becomes 2.593 kills (there's no difference against GEQ for S7 vs S8).

So against 1-wound models, the heavy flamer / combiflamer is objectively better than plasma even when the plasma is buffed by a captain, unless buffed by a captain in overcharge mode. Buffed by an Lt, the HF/CF combo becomes 2.236 kills against MEQ, meaning it does more damage for less points even than overcharge.

*Slightly less because of the small but still existent 1/36 chance for a marine buffed by a captain to kill themselves with the first overcharged plasmagun shot, thus causing them to not be able to take the second one.

Yes but he has no anti tank/ multiple hp weapons so some plasma would fit perfectly, at least one squad.

Mind fixing the quote? Corrected my math in an edit.

 Melissia wrote:

*Slightly less because of the small but still existent 1/36 chance for a marine buffed by a captain to kill themselves with the first overcharged plasmagun shot, thus causing them to not be able to take the second one.

Shots happen simultaneously. And the model is killed after all shooting attacks are resolved. If a model rolls a hit and a blowup the hit still wounds. Btw, im really good at blowing up my captain, already happened twice to me.

Ah, I read that rule wrong then. Thanks.

Ok, today I had my first 50 point game against the Necrons :

Lists



My strategy was this :
Priest and Chaplain boost the VV (+1S and re-roll attacks)
Captain sticks with Tacs to re-roll 1's on shooting, supported by the razorbacks

I did ok, I found I wasted a lot of shots trying to wipe out his destroyers.. they just came back with RP :(
The whirlwind did little damage.
My VV squad got into position to charge the cryptek, it took all five of them to kill him and then they got wiped out by the warriors, this was a tactical error on my part, I should have put them in CC with the warriors at the same time.
The Wraiths are tough to kill, but easier than the destroyers as they have no RP.
The Razorbacks did well, I only lost the one with the other untouched, they put out a lot of damage for the 5 power level.

At the end of the game, I had killed 1 destroyer ( I actually killed 5 but they just kept coming back) , 1 cryptek and 3 wraiths
He had killed 1 Razorback, 1 tac squad and 4 VV

If anyone has any suggestions on why this list lost, I would be glad to hear them, also, would be keen to know your thoughts on the VV setup, they seemed expensive but it was my fault not keeping them in CC, still they took 40 -1ap shots and 1 out of 5 survived!

Cheers!

Id probably run the VV plasma pistol / chain sword, as they do a lot more damage that way, and the SSs usually don't do much to save them in my experience.

I might also drop one of the HQ units. Having a chaplain and a priest buffing just 5 guys doesn't seem that effective when you could just bring more guys instead.

Yeah, with two HQ units you want to at least be buffing ten, if not fifteen guys.