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 MinscS2 wrote:
I'm also curious how you get so many CP's.

I'm having "issues" getting more than 6 CP, since it requires a minimum of 3 HQ's, and I find that I really don't want that many HQ's.

Heck, the only reason I take 2 HQ's is so that I can get a battalion detatchment.

I guess you can save some points by taking cheap HQ's such as Chaplains and Techmarines.

Depends what you want to run. Lieutenants, librarians, techmarines and even primaris captains aren't that expensive points wise and can provide blobs of units buffs. What are you basing the core of your lists around?

My best list only gets me 2 CP. What kinda wizardry are you using?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My best list only gets me 2 CP. What kinda wizardry are you using?

You always start with 3CP base.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My best list only gets me 2 CP. What kinda wizardry are you using?

I take it, by 2, you mean 5? 2 from detachments and 3 for being battleforged?

More than 6 CPs is hard for Marines, between the overall points costs on the units and how much the HQ tax hurts list building.

I usually take a battilion and at least one other small detatchment, 2 if i can. So that's at least 4 plus the 3 for being battle forged.

As far as HQs, I've been liking 2 captains with thunder hammers, and then maybe a lib or a cheap captain.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'm also curious how you get so many CP's.

I'm having "issues" getting more than 6 CP, since it requires a minimum of 3 HQ's, and I find that I really don't want that many HQ's.

Heck, the only reason I take 2 HQ's is so that I can get a battalion detatchment.

I guess you can save some points by taking cheap HQ's such as Chaplains and Techmarines.

Characters can be cheap if running them fairly stock.

min troop is min.

and i can get 6 no issues.

i think the primary issue im running into is that i dont like running my troops on foot and often buy rhinos and razorbacks which add up on top of the units they carry.

Not sure if any of you are miniwargaming vault members, but Quirk recently ran an Ultramarines brigade detachment WITH Bobbie G at 2k points.

6 min tac squads with 3 lascannons and 3 missiles, 3 base jump pack assault squads, 3 vindicators, a las dreadnought, an apothecary and some servitors. A primaris librarian, a captain and a chaplain.

All in all, 15 CP and using the ultramarines warlord trait to get them back on a 5+.

Not 100% sure on how viable the chaos list was, but, it certainly destroyed a lot of units with the knight and helldrake, before Guilliman essentially 1 shotted the knight.

I personally have been bringing 2 rhinos and 2 razorbacks and can usually fit all my marines in there. Razor backs are great, and rhinos are like monstrous creatures that lock stuff up in combat, so i don't see either as a tax.

I've also found that a captain with a thunder hammer is pretty scary and can hold most stuff up if not kill it outright. So i don't hate having to take a couple. Same with a librarian, as smite, deny, and the force axe isn't too bad.

jcd386 wrote:
I personally have been bringing 2 rhinos and 2 razorbacks and can usually fit all my marines in there. Razor backs are great, and rhinos are like monstrous creatures that lock stuff up in combat, so i don't see either as a tax.

I've also found that a captain with a thunder hammer is pretty scary and can hold most stuff up if not kill it outright. So i don't hate having to take a couple. Same with a librarian, as smite, deny, and the force axe isn't too bad.

I dont mean they are bad

i mean they dont fulfill a detachment slot making it harder to gain more CP not that they are not worth it. besides that 6 cp i find is more than enough for most games.

Wait... wrong thread somehow

Sure, at 2000 you can take a pure marine brigade. But the troop, HQ, and IMO, fast attack slots are a fair bit of tax. Prior to seeing the new codex I'd prefer the battalion list flexibility to CPs. Now, the CPs are more useful, but you arent packing all those new primaris units or transports into a brigade at 2000 or less.

Id have really liked to see some marine specific detachments for 5-6 CPs, maybe that required tacticals or intercessors. Ie, fewer tax units, but spendier ones like youd expect in a marine army.

Kdash wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My best list only gets me 2 CP. What kinda wizardry are you using?

I take it, by 2, you mean 5? 2 from detachments and 3 for being battleforged?

Is there an automatic 3 for being Battleforged?

Wow how handy that would have been to know. Like, what page IS that?

On the page that explains how to use detachments and what command points are.

bort wrote:
Sure, at 2000 you can take a pure marine brigade. But the troop, HQ, and IMO, fast attack slots are a fair bit of tax. Prior to seeing the new codex I'd prefer the battalion list flexibility to CPs. Now, the CPs are more useful, but you arent packing all those new primaris units or transports into a brigade at 2000 or less.

Id have really liked to see some marine specific detachments for 5-6 CPs, maybe that required tacticals or intercessors. Ie, fewer tax units, but spendier ones like youd expect in a marine army.

In all honesty you shouldn't be basing your entire army around CP or using certain stratagems or at least very rarely doing that. CP and stratagems are there to help you win the game, not be game winning. You should be able to get at least 5 CP total with a few detachments, otherwise having 4 isn't the end of the world. Don't get too hung up on having a top of CP or you're going to end up taking tax units you don't need.

What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.

Personally I find fast attack the hardest slot to fill, if going for a brigade. I guess opinions vary on that. Inceptors are very expensive and I really don't rate them. It seems to me that reivers should have been FA. Land speeders, maybe? Something like a reiver driving an elysian tauros might make a cool attack bike. Hmm. Scout bikes actually seem quite good, epecially with their new stratagem.

If playing raven guard then actually 6 squads of intercessors wouldn't be a useless option. The HQs are worthwhile. Assorted dreadnoughts and aggressors for elites. Hellblasters infiltrating would be pretty nasty for your heavy support. But the inceptors just don't seem to bring anything - especially not for the price you pay. A redemptor is cheaper, has much more dakka, twice as many wounds (at T7) and a dreadnought ccw - and the redemptor isn't even that good. The plasma guys would make some kind of sense to armies other than raven guard.

It's annoying that people are going to be able to spray their dudes black, spot on some metal, and have an optimal army =P

sossen wrote:
The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.

Well, that's what balance and compelling choices are all about. You have to give to get.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
On the page that explains how to use detachments and what command points are.

I feel like a jackass for missing that. If I knew that I might gotten better than 4th at my locals.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
On the page that explains how to use detachments and what command points are.

I feel like a jackass for missing that. If I knew that I might gotten better than 4th at my locals.

Congrats either way!

Lemondish wrote:

sossen wrote:
The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.

Well, that's what balance and compelling choices are all about. You have to give to get.

SM has to give a lot more than most to get that juicy brigade. I doubt that it's worth it, 6 naked scout/tac/intercessor squads and three (probably bad) FA choices is a heavy price to pay.

So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:

The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.

Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...

I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), and because I want to keep my friends, but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?

Edit: Nevermind, false alarm.

How are people using their lieutenants? I was originally super exited to get this new kind of character, but in practice I have hard time justifying taking them. Vanilla captain is four points more than a primaris lieutenant, and has mostly the same profile except with better BS and LD, has better buff, comes with 4+ invulnerable save and generally has better weapon options... That is a lot of stuff for four points! (I really hope they adjust the costs in the codex, this is just absurd.) Sure, you might want to stack both buffs, but that starts to become a rather hefty points investment.

You can have tarantula sentry guns for not many points. They are FA for some weird reason. You get a little twin heavy bolter that sits there and shoots things. It's kind of characterful, if not good, and 3 of them come in around 80 points.

Failing that, attack bikes are decent objective grabbers. Land speeders with flamers are an interesting option. Actually if you ran a unit of 3 they'd be very fast, and not a lot of fun for people to charge.

There's nothing that you'd go out and take on purpose though, unless you play white scars I guess.

 MinscS2 wrote:
So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:

The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.

Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...

I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?

Oh mai god

2++ THSS Terminators?

i think im in heaven

 MinscS2 wrote:
So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:

The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.

Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...

I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), and because I want to keep my friends, but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?

This only works for Astra Militarum Terminators tho.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:

The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.

Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...

I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), and because I want to keep my friends, but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?

This only works for Astra Militarum Terminators tho.

Oh did i missunderstand? i though he meant the new primaris lib model :( sad times

This only works for Astra Militarum Terminators tho.

Ahh thank god.
I was afraid I had created a monster...

Mandragola wrote:
You can have tarantula sentry guns for not many points. They are FA for some weird reason. You get a little twin heavy bolter that sits there and shoots things. It's kind of characterful, if not good, and 3 of them come in around 80 points.

Failing that, attack bikes are decent objective grabbers. Land speeders with flamers are an interesting option. Actually if you ran a unit of 3 they'd be very fast, and not a lot of fun for people to charge.

There's nothing that you'd go out and take on purpose though, unless you play white scars I guess.

Eww, really? My dang Imperium II book has been on back order, so I havent priced out the nonSM options.

You tell me I need to take 1 regular assault or biker squad instead of a veteran one as a tax to get more CPs, thats a choice Id consider. Telling me I need 200-250 pts of naked ASMs or speeders hurts too much. But oh, you can bypass the hard choice with 80pts of tarantulas?