[KS] Forgotten World - Fireforge's new fantasy range

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**Theophony**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Heh, fair enough.

Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.

I still don’t see that as protecting the FLGS. Not when I can get the same discount from my FLGS ( and pay local taxes 8ish percent) or get it for the same discount online from a discounter who has a points rewards program, free shipping and not pay taxes. Sure I have to wait longer (3-4 days), but I can usually preorder it from them and get it same day as my shop.

Manufacturers need to worry about their sales and not worry about local shops. If the local shops can grow the culture and get people in they will survive and thrive, there will be competition, but nothing is a given.

**insaniak**

lord_blackfang wrote:

Online discounters can always discount deeper than a brick and mortar store, on account of lower overheads. Ergo, limiting discounters levels the playing field in favour of brick and mortars. This isn't a complex concept.

It's certainly a concept that gets trotted out every time this sort of topic comes up, but it runs smack into the problem that over the last couple of decades several of the largest online discounters have been brick and mortar stores.

But even ignoring that, it doesn't 'level' the playing field at all. If the online discounter has lower overheads and makes more profit as a result, that's still going to be true regardless of where you choose to set the price. It will also be true for any brick and mortar store than has lower overheads than others. It's not as simple as 'online discounters vs B&M stores'.

**lord_blackfang**

insaniak wrote:

It's certainly a concept that gets trotted out every time this sort of topic comes up, but it runs smack into the problem that over the last couple of decades several of the largest online discounters have been brick and mortar stores.

But even ignoring that, it doesn't 'level' the playing field at all. If the online discounter has lower overheads and makes more profit as a result, that's still going to be true regardless of where you choose to set the price. It will also be true for any brick and mortar store than has lower overheads than others. It's not as simple as 'online discounters vs B&M stores'.

I don't care if an online discounter makes more profit than my local B&M when they both sell at the same price. I care that my B&M can't even make a sale if people can buy the same thing for 20% less online. And if the online discounter happens to be a B&M store that's halfway around the world from me, that's really not a factor for me. If I can't go there and play, they're an online discounter for all intents and purposes.

**lord marcus**

lord_blackfang wrote:
insaniak wrote:

It's certainly a concept that gets trotted out every time this sort of topic comes up, but it runs smack into the problem that over the last couple of decades several of the largest online discounters have been brick and mortar stores.

But even ignoring that, it doesn't 'level' the playing field at all. If the online discounter has lower overheads and makes more profit as a result, that's still going to be true regardless of where you choose to set the price. It will also be true for any brick and mortar store than has lower overheads than others. It's not as simple as 'online discounters vs B&M stores'.

I don't care if an online discounter makes more profit than my local B&M when they both sell at the same price. I care that my B&M can't even make a sale if people can buy the same thing for 20% less online. And if the online discounter happens to be a B&M store that's halfway around the world from me, that's really not a factor for me. If I can't go there and play, they're an online discounter for all intents and purposes.

Then your FLGS should be competitive with the free market.

**lord_blackfang**

lord marcus wrote:

Then your FLGS should be competitive with the free market.

Not everyone subscribes to neoliberal brainwashing. Let's leave it at that.

**lord marcus**

lord_blackfang wrote:
lord marcus wrote:

Then your FLGS should be competitive with the free market.

Not everyone subscribes to neoliberal brainwashing. Let's leave it at that.

It seems that you cannot find a fault in my argument, so you bring up politics to redirect.

**Aesthete**

IMO, setting a minimum retail price is an absolutely legitimate business strategy for a manufacturer - and one that I expect most miniature manufacturers engage in.

On the other hand, people who are apparently company representatives getting into internet forum arguments about the practice is poor marketing, especially during a kickstarter. I'd recommend the good folks at Fireforge to get their marketing and PR house in order because they're not doing themselves any favour.

While I personally think setting a minimum retail price is perfectly legit, arguing about it here (or anywhere for that matter) can only serve to drive away some subset of potential customers for zero gain.

**insaniak**

lord_blackfang wrote:

I don't care if an online discounter makes more profit than my local B&M when they both sell at the same price.

That's odd... I could have sworn that the fact that the B&M store has a lower margin was the whole problem you were claiming this was supposed to address...

I care that my B&M can't even make a sale if people can buy the same thing for 20% less online.

Ignoring for a moment this logic would mean that no B&M stores for, like, anything should still exist, there's always the option for your B&M store to choose to price their goods more competitively. They don't even have to match the online discount, they just have to make the difference small enough to balance out shipping time.

And if the online discounter happens to be a B&M store that's halfway around the world from me, that's really not a factor for me. If I can't go there and play, they're an online discounter for all intents and purposes.

So, wait - are we protecting the B&M stores, or are we protecting your personal interests? Because what it looks like you're saying is that everyone else should have to pay more if your chosen B&M happens to have higher overheads than everyone else.

**Aesthete**

lord marcus wrote:
It seems that you cannot find a fault in my argument, so you bring up politics to redirect.

Your argument is plenty flawed. In a free market a manufacturer is completely free to put conditions on the sale of their goods - such as minimum retail prices - and they are completely free to stop selling their product to retailers and distributors who violate those clauses. This is common across pretty much any industry that involves the selling of goods that are not directly from manufacturer to consumers - from cars to soda to solar panels to beauty products to miniatures and so on.

And - in a free market - it is absolutely within the rights of a manufacturer to develop a strategy that involves preferential sales and pricing structures to various business partners - and if that means setting price floors (super common) or giving better prices to distributors or retailers they think will grow the market for their product (also super common) so be it. Conversely, distributors and retailers are within their rights to negotiate the best possible contracts or not buy product if they don't like the conditions of sale (the Walmart model). The degree to which any given company can influence the nature of their contracts due to their willingness to buy or sell the product and their desirability as a partner is called market power. Understanding market power and applying it appropriately is fundamental to success as a business entity in a free market.

A manufacturer (such as a miniature producer) cutting off supply to one retailer they don't like (such as an online retailer) in favour of another they like better (such as an FLGS) lies at the very heart of the free market, and it happens all the time. Whether any given such decision is a good idea comes down to the specifics and the result.

A customer deciding that they'd rather buy miniatures (potentially at a premium) at an FLGS where they can game is a rational and allowed act in a free market. An FLGS saying to a manufacturer "I won't carry your product if you can't guarantee me a profit margin of X% per unit, and stop us from being undercut by online discounters" is a perfectly legit move in a free market. And a manufacturer deciding that they'd rather have their product sold by the FLGS rather than online discounters because they think it'll grow their market faster is a perfectly legitimate business decision to maker in a free market.

The fault with your argument (such as it is) is that makes no sense in the context of the free market. FLGS influencing (directly or indirectly) the manufacturers to choke off supply to discounters is how the the free market works.

**ScarletRose**

And this is why I dropped my pledge - because of the hypocrisy that belies the 'muh free market but extortion is somehow ok' strain of capitalist thought. Freedom isn't extortion no matter how many Orwellian arguments can be made about it.

**Albertorius**

ScarletRose wrote:
And this is why I dropped my pledge - because of the hypocrisy that belies the 'muh free market but extortion is somehow ok' strain of capitalist thought. Freedom isn't extortion no matter how many Orwellian arguments can be made about it.

Kind of harsh, but above all, wrong. Unless they are "obtaining money, property, or services from an individual or institution, through coercion", whatever this is certainly is not extortion. The correct term would be "price fixing", I believe.

Personally, I have dropped my pledge because in the end I am only interested in one thing out of all the ones they are doing, so I'd rather wait for retail.

EDIT: Edited to use the proper term.

**StygianBeach**

ScarletRose wrote:
And this is why I dropped my pledge - because of the hypocrisy that belies the 'muh free market but extortion is somehow ok' strain of capitalist thought. Freedom isn't extortion no matter how many Orwellian arguments can be made about it.

This thread is out of control.

I decided I was in when i saw the sculpts, i am still in regardless of some clumsy forum posting.

**DaveC**

Up €3,000 in one go on one new backer after back sliding all morning. I hope if it’s Fireforge they aren’t over extending themselves, if it’s a new retailer happy days if it’s someone else manipulating the total to get it funded and then will start backing the money out as the total grows they aren’t really doing anyone any favours and funds get locked in at the 48 hour mark as you can’t withdraw funds if it would cause a project to unfund.

This €8,000 jump in the last 2 days concerns me large jumps from single backers are one of my red flags for projects.

There might be a 48 hour bump there could also be a correction if people take out funds they had in for later goals. I still think this will fund but I’m sure how much beyond it will go.

**corgan**

Lord Ekard wrote:
Hanskrampf wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.

wonderful, what's the name of this shop?

You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?

I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.

Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.

**DaveC**

Did a load of retailers wake up this morning and go I must back this project now - up another €2,300 and 1 retailer pledge.

Total now at €128,800

Wait up another €1,100 as I type with no new retailers or regular backers. Now at €129,900.

**Mymearan**

corgan wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
Hanskrampf wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.

wonderful, what's the name of this shop?

You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?

I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.

Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.

Indeed... what Fireforge are doing is illegal in the EU. Seems like it's allowed in the US since a ruling in 2007 though, before that it wasn't allowed there either.

**Schmapdi**

This thread is out of control.

This. Also - about $100 from funding - grats to Fireforge. These aren't for me, but glad to see they're being made. Looking forward to see more races in the future

**Galas**

Mymearan wrote:
corgan wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
Hanskrampf wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.

wonderful, what's the name of this shop?

You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?

I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.

Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.

Indeed... what Fireforge are doing is illegal in the EU. Seems like it's allowed in the US since a ruling in 2007 though, before that it wasn't allowed there either.

It may be ilegall but I dare you find a discounted apple product. Legality means little when you have enough lawyers.

**lord marcus**

Galas wrote:
Mymearan wrote:
corgan wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
Hanskrampf wrote:
Lord Ekard wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.

wonderful, what's the name of this shop?

You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?

I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.

Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.

Indeed... what Fireforge are doing is illegal in the EU. Seems like it's allowed in the US since a ruling in 2007 though, before that it wasn't allowed there either.

It may be ilegall but I dare you find a discounted apple product. Legality means little when you have enough lawyers.

And that is gaming the system because you don't like it

**Azazelx**

Wow this thread got aggressively stupid real quick when FF got directly involved with a loaded shotgun and accidentally pointed it downwards at their own feet with their twitchy finger still on the trigger...

Also looks suspiciously like FF are "helping" their own project get funded.

Also - great post, Bob.

**Psychopomp**

That really was a great post, Bob. Thank you.

**Gallahad**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want to address the idea that the critics of this kickstarter have been unfair. Some in this thread seem to think that the creator-pledger relationship should be mostly one way and passive, that we should either pay up or shut up. But that is not what Kickstarter is for, and not even really what Fireforge wants it to be. Kickstarter is a platform for creators to publicize their projects, fire up potential customers, gain feedback, and then convince people all over the world fund their project if they find it worthy. Kickstarter is not a standard retailer-customer venue and it is a waste of time to approach it like it is. When creators come hat in hand to beg for money they had better prepare to sing and dance. If a company wants to reap the benefits of having a successful, high profile kickstarter campaign, they need to be willing to play the kickstarter game. And they need to realize that failure on Kickstarter is not measured by how many posters criticize your project but rather by how few are engaged enough to care. So put on your game face, because kickstarter is supposed to get rough. To paraphrase Q, there are rewards to satiate creators both subtle and gross, but it is not for the timid.

Fireforge is an established company with many plastic kits already on the market. This affects how potential backers see them. They can't expect to play in the small pool with Heresy Lab, Tre Manor, Slumbering Oblivion and the like. Fireforge fits in the big pool, with Mantic, CMON and even Shieldwolf. In the big pool, the rules are different. When Shieldwolf made their plastic orcs, they played the kickstarter game, took all kinds of criticism and feedback, offered value, and succeeded. When they made their Shieldmaidens, they played the kickstarter game and took their lumps. When Shieldwolf made their plastic Sisters, they saw they couldn't afford to play the kickstarter game, so they didn't launch a kickstarter. The lesson: know what you're getting into and walk away if you can't afford to play.

Now look at Mantic. Mantic wasn't any bigger than Fireforge when they started playing the kickstarter game. But Mantic played the game and played well. If you look at any of their campaigns, you'll see all manner of demands and harsh words, but you'll also see Mantic take it and play the kickstarter game. Sometimes Mantic screwed up big, but they always moved to make it up to the customers, to keep their customers placated. Mantic is simultaneously known as a serial bungler of kickstarters and as one of our most beloved kickstarter companies. Because Mantic always comes prepared to play the kickstarter game. The lesson: come prepared if you want to play the kickstarter game, and never lose your cool. Any screw up, even if it isn't your fault, is yours to atone for.

Look at CMON. I don't know if anyone is actually rooting for that company. I feel dirty every time I pledge with them. But CMON are masters of the kickstarter game because they play to win. They thrive on giving value for money. The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers. Corollary: upstanding righteousness will win you no kickstarter game if you don't bring sufficient value for enough backers. And it becomes evident that Fireforge is lacking on that metric, too.

In conclusion, we have not been harsh to Fireforge. We have been trying to engage with Fireforge. We tried to help them play the kickstarter game. Instead, they scored an own goal and snarled at us when we gasped.

Great post Bob. The comparison to a pageant was apt. I think some creators underestimate the pageant part, which is why picking the right campaign length is important, and why momentum is so important to succeed. You can't have long intermissions without losing backer interest.

**Albino Squirrel**

The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers.

Sure, but as backers I think this is a stupid thing to encourage. Mantic has delivered some truly garbage product with several of their kickstarters, but they keep being successful with them because of the showmanship and pangeantry and everything EXCEPT making good products. So maybe we SHOULD start placing more value on getting exciting new products we want made a reality, and less on getting a big pile of cheap junk we'll never use.

**ecurtz**

How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?

I like the "retro" design of these and may back it to go with my Frostgrave stuff.

**frankelee**

Well Forgotten World has funded, it could well be from calling in to retailers they know and getting them to pledge, so it's not necessarily illegitimate.

The people here trying to defend minimum MSRP have done a great job making the other side look beyond 100% right. I don't see it as a terrible thing, for brand new products over say the first three to six months. But the idea that you're supporting a brick and mortar store by forcing them to do things instead of letting them run their own store... well I would have thought any adult would be smart enough to see that's a pretty obtuse statement. With Fireforge being a small company I think they had better get more savvy about business should they ever wish to grow, or just get used to distributing straight to eBay stores. Because it's gonna be one or the other.

And I'm also beginning to wonder if there just shouldn't be a sticky post explaining how threads about Kickstarters involve both positive and negative assessments and conversations. I mean, how many times did it really need to be explained in this thread about a little KS campaign? It's unproductive, low quality whining about the meta of the boards.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Albino Squirrel wrote:
The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers.

Sure, but as backers I think this is a stupid thing to encourage. Mantic has delivered some truly garbage product with several of their kickstarters, but they keep being successful with them because of the showmanship and pangeantry and everything EXCEPT making good products. So maybe we SHOULD start placing more value on getting exciting new products we want made a reality, and less on getting a big pile of cheap junk we'll never use.

Well, a lot of that value is relative. For example, I am very happy with all of Mantic's HIPS kits, with the old Men at Arms being their lowest point and still providing excellent weapons and bodies for use in conversions or with large bits boxes. If I had paid more than $1 per mini, that calculus would be different for me, and I understand why others feel differently. That's probably why Mantic gets so much negative feedback, which they handle well. People who are completely fed up with Mantic typically don't pledge any more and also typically don't engage in the Kickstarter game with them. People like me who find value in Mantic's products, even excluding their obvious misses, keep coming back because either the product is worth it or the Kickstarter experience is worth it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ecurtz wrote:
How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?

I like the "retro" design of these and may back it to go with my Frostgrave stuff.

They have stated that the scale is different from most historical kits, which means the new Fireforge fantasy plastics won't match with the Frostgrave plastics. Their historical kits would probably work better.

Also, is locking threads over GW pricing a thing that happens on Dakka? That seems like more of a Warseer thing.

**Sarouan**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ecurtz wrote:
How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?

I like the "retro" design of these and may back it to go with my Frostgrave stuff.

They have stated that the scale is different from most historical kits, which means the new Fireforge fantasy plastics won't match with the Frostgrave plastics. Their historical kits would probably work better.

Less words, more pictures :

They will look fine with Frostgrave miniatures. Maybe a bit bigger, but since in life there are small and big men, it can give a nice variation on that matter. Not a game breaking issue for sure.

I see you can't give up on the bone even when dropping the Kickstarter. To me, it really looks like the people having a grudge is not Fireforge or their backers, but you needing to find excuses and justifications for this sad thread.

**ecurtz**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Also, is locking threads over GW pricing a thing that happens on Dakka? That seems like more of a Warseer thing.

They seem to try and keep things on topic in News and Rumors. I was thinking more that and Rule 1 than pricing discussion per se. And yes, pricing is at least arguably on topic for a Kickstarter thread, but it's clearly past the point where it's productive.

I already mix some Fireforge historical parts with my Frostgrave, so the scale isn't an issue for me. Gives it that authentic 80s randomly sized limbs feeling.

**MasticatorDeelux**

I was debating purchasing their products (and backing their KS) but won't give money to a company I dislike - nor my FLGS, who have dozens of historical wargamers. The models look nice, but I disagree with their ethics.

**Phobos**

This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.

20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?

Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.