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the_scotsman wrote:

Every army that's not marines gets meaningfully touched by the attention of the GW design team once per edition. Last edition was a crazy freak edition because every army got 2 (so obv marines got 3, to keep it fair) with the index and codex.

if they don't fix your problems when you get your codex, youuuuuuuuve just gotta live with those problems for 3 years.

My biggest problem with 8th edition is that there was very little revision, statline-wise, from Index to Codex for most armies, despite player (and therefore GW's) understanding of how the new rules actually break down in practice growing and making issues with those statlines clear. Lots of weapon statlines and unit statlines that felt sort of experimental in the way they tried to translate stuff that disappeared or changed dramatically (lost USRs, AP values, Initiative, AV statlines, Unit types) in the Indexes just... carried on into their 8th edition codex, which was inevitable for some of the earlier armies to get a codex but by the twilight of the edition they were bizarrely still stubbornly sticking to them. To use our own codex as an example: what was done to the Seismic Cannon, heavy or normal, was a crime that wasn't addressed even though we were one of the last armies to get an 8th edition book.

Fortunately, so far in 9th they do seem to be allowing/asserting themselves to make notable changes to the statlines they established with the 8th edition indexes, so I will allow myself to be optimistic.

I do not know if that was the biggest problem of 8th edition. Or even if it was a problem playing GSC in 8th edtion.

From my understanding GSC did quite well in 8th edition as long as you have some 30 CP and spammed trops etc. I only had GSC as allies then (I have them as a whole army now) so I am rellyig on a bad memory of reports from other people.

The biggest 'nerf' in 8th edition was how the rules to reserves changed. It is a good change for the game. But I think our current codex was not written with those in mind. I do not know the timing of when they planed the changes to when the codex was written.

But the changes to those reserve rules, 9th edition rules changes in general and 9th edition point increases all pile on to make things very difficult.

I would not think it fair to say the 8th edition codex was not well written. For the most part it has been adequit. You can of course arest them on smaller things.

GSC were very good in 8th, and while the reserve rules were a big change for us from how the army played in 7th (see random table of fun(TM)), I think the biggest change that negatively affected the army as a whole was the buff to marines.

Infiltrators, Doctrines, and Super-Doctrines countered our deep-strike shenanigans, and the prevalence of AP2 made Rusted Claw largely defunct (apart from the atalan jackal suicide squad).

Specifically, Iron Hands were a very hard-counter to GSC, with invincible dreadnoughts and overwatching on a 5+

How are people feeling about psychic summons as a way to get around 1/4/5 deep strike?

2cp is a cost for sure, but that + return to the shadows is a way to get two units anywhere we want on the board right at the end of the game, or to pressure a back objective before the first turn of scoring.

Requires keeping that magus alive throughout but it's something i'm looking at alongside the abberants to have a bit more flexibility in my lists, being able to have less sunk points at deployment and react to the game a bit better.

My understanding is that reinforcement points aren't counted against the reserve limits?

I found the best use of Psychic Summons was to summon a squad and move-block turn 1. Super effective against some armies, but I've found advance and charge with Psychic Stimulus to just be better. The CP cost is just crazy, as we're already so starved on it, and it eats up a caster who has very valuable psychic powers. The only thing I could consider doing with it would be to bring a second set of characters, since we're also not allowed to double up on our Characters - but then I think you might as well just bring a real 2nd detachment as a Patrol for the same number of CP.

 Niiai wrote:
I would not think it fair to say the 8th edition codex was not well written. For the most part it has been adequit. You can of course arest them on smaller things.

That was not what I was talking about. I'm talking about poor translation of 7th edition unit and weapon profiles to their 8th edition Index versions, and how GW basically refused across all armies to significantly reassess if these were good translations or not as they progressed to 8th edition codexes. To once again use the Seismic Cannon as an example: this weapon used to function at 12" or less as a Krak Missile launcher that had AP1 on a wound/penetrate roll of 6, or a Heavy Bolter with the same AP1 bonus at 12" or more. The only difference between the Heavy vehicle mounted one or the infantry carried one was the number of shots it had in either profile. Compare that to what the Index implemented and the 8th edition codex followed through on, it's completely unrecognizable as the weapon it was - the Heavy version at least does have S8 like it used to at the short range, but still lost a point of strength on the other one, while the infantry version... absolutely silly. You find examples of these totally off the mark statlines across plenty of armies, not just GSC, where it appears to me that GW was just in crunch mode trying to get all armies 8th ready for their Index version, but then never took the time to reconsider if those were the best translation of the 7th edition rules when it came to release the codex rules.

As another example, consider Monster units vs. Vehicles. Functionally identical now, Monsters used to trade slightly less potential for shooting firepower for greater durability by virtue of having 0 potential to be destroyed by any single anti-armor weapon, but not being impervious to small arms fire. Now, they still tend to be equipped with less guns than their vehicle equivalents, but have vastly lost out on that durability, typically having as many or less wounds than a lot of vehicles serving similar roles, while also being more vulnerable to both small arms fire and anti-armor.

It's the same kind of sentiment that led to 2W Firstborn Marines - it had become apparent that the new rules did not accommodate whatever GW had thought, at the time of writing the Indexes, worked for translating statlines from 7th to 8th. Players vocalized this enough that GW listened. And we're seeing bits of it in non-Marine armies come 9th edition as well, most notably the armory update. Which is why I said I was hopeful that things would change for even the armies that typically spend several years languishing with poorly balanced rules.

dammit wrote:
How are people feeling about psychic summons as a way to get around 1/4/5 deep strike?

Just returning to this point, any units going underground from they came from below is able to come onto the board in turn 4. I'm pretty sure this got FAQ'd in 8th to be before the end of turn 3, so either that FAQ got pulled or it was never there to begin with and I had been playing the entire edition wrong.

This definitely reframes my thinking about competing into the later turns.

In Eternal War missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round. Any Strategic Reserve or Reinforcement unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed, as do any units embarked within them (this does not apply to units that are placed into Strategic Reserves after the first battle round has started).

I'd love to have the balls to argue that the parenthesis applies to the entire paragrah but it definitely doesn't.

You can definitely summon daemons in the first battle round (unless that changed in 9th? you could in 8th despite the language about no turn-1 ), so I dunno why the same wouldn't be true of GSC summoning.

From the 2019 8th edition FAQ:

". Also note, that no part of this matched play rule applies to units that are added to your army
during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere
(on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that
‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished."

I don't see any reason why this would be changed for 9th. Summoned units aren't Reinforcements because they don't start the game off the battlefield; they don't exist at all at the start of the game.

What i mean is I'm migrating away from summoning because it looks like they came from below gives us turn 4/5 deepstrike.

With end of turn scoring in 5th how does this affect actions that you perform in turn 4 but would be scored in your 5th command phase?

edit- ok that's just for primary scoring

Scout Sentinels + Ambush deployment markers.

Thought that had occurred to me. If I deploy a unit of scout sentinels on my forward deployment line and put an ambush token right in amongst them; I should be able to pregame move my scout sentinels out of the position, allowing another unit (say Jackals, Cult Armoured sentinels, ect) to then deploy there via cult ambush at the start of my movement phase/end of opponent's movement phase; right?

(I want to play a very aggressive "Push them back" sorta play style to prevent my opponent from even reaching the centre objectives.)

Yes you can, and I've done this myself . Move-blocking is phenomenal when your opponent is unable to counter it because their list concept is too defensive. You keep them off scoring until turn 3, and you'll almost surely win the game even getting tabled on turn 4.

However, I've found that anyone whose played a bit of 9th knows that they need things to push up super fast, and this strategy is useless if your opponent can Fly. So, yes it's good, but you'll only see a small window of it being actually effective.

Splendid.

I'm planning to get a Hydra or two, and I figure they should be able to put a dent in any "fly" units, so I'm not going to be fussed if my opponent brings lots of targets for them.

Aside from "fly" units, or say, something like the Tyranid "Overrun" rule, how else do people break through moveblocks?

(Things are still largely locked down here so, haven't been able to play a game with my new models yet.)

VonGerrow wrote:
Splendid.

I'm planning to get a Hydra or two, and I figure they should be able to put a dent in any "fly" units, so I'm not going to be fussed if my opponent brings lots of targets for them.

Aside from "fly" units, or say, something like the Tyranid "Overrun" rule, how else do people break through moveblocks?

(Things are still largely locked down here so, haven't been able to play a game with my new models yet.)

Well, here's how folks have countered me once they move-blocking started to lose its luster here:

#1 - Just fight them - Everyone. They choose not to shoot the unit to death, so they can charge. They use the distance of the charge to get around the unit and as far forward towards other objectives as possible. The Space Marines just WRECK the unit in combat, because they're bananas strong and we're thinner than paper, but it applies to most other armies too.

#2 - Fights twice - Many. Same as above, but they can get extra distance by fighting twice, further reducing the viability of the move-block.

#3 - Double-move - Chaos & a few others. They hop through walls and other breachable cover with their dudes, then move again. Pretty much, they move to establish a line against yours.

#4 - Pre-game moves - Mechanicus, Chaos, Space Marines, heck even Scout Sentinels from Guard. Anything to keep you from move-blocking their path onto objectives.

#5 - Effective Deep Strike + Chargers - Blood Angels, Orks. They don't really care too much about your move block.

#6 - They go first and are fast - Lots of folks. Move-blocking only works if you're actually in the spot you need to be to move-block them.



So yeah, most armies have ways around this once the person realizes that there's this threat at the start of the game that many armies, not just ours, can do. There's probably even more, but I've encountered almost all of these myself with my move-blocking forces, and had to give it up. For a short while though, it really was effective! Called it the NPC army, which is probably a dozen pages back by now.

I’ve yet to play a game in 9th edition, but I’m planning to run this 1000 point list against some buddies in a couple of weeks:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [58 PL, 1,000pts, 6CP] ++

+ Configuration +

[Reference] Ambush Markers

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

Cult Creed: The Bladed Cog

Detachment Command Cost

Insurrectionists

+ HQ +

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]

Patriarch [7 PL, 135pts]: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Undying Vigour, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation

Primus [4 PL, 85pts]

+ Troops +

Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 190pts]: Cult Icon
. 8x Acolyte Hybrid: 8x Autopistol, 8x Blasting Charges, 8x Cultist Knife, 8x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 60pts]
. 9x Neophyte Hybrid: 9x Autogun, 9x Autopistol, 9x Blasting Charges
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 85pts]
. 6x Neophyte Hybrid: 6x Autogun, 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges
. Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): Grenade Launcher
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 60pts]
. 9x Neophyte Hybrid: 9x Autogun, 9x Autopistol, 9x Blasting Charges
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Fast Attack +

Achilles Ridgerunners [4 PL, 70pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser

Atalan Jackals [8 PL, 70pts]
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Leader: Autogun, Shotgun

+ Heavy Support +

Goliath Rockgrinder [6 PL, 95pts]: Heavy Seismic Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Goliath Truck [4 PL, 75pts]

++ Total: [58 PL, 1,000pts, 6CP] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Patriarch advances behind the jackals. Primus, acolytes, and the two barebones neophytes squads will start off the table. The mining laser neophytes will try to stay in the truck.

E: it just occurred to me that the transport rules might not allow the neophytes to benefit from the Jackal Alphus’ aura while embarked. I’ll need to check that next time I have the rule book handy.

E2: they can benefit from the Alphus because they benefit from any modifiers given to the Goliath.

What secondaries is everyone taking?

I haven't come up against an opponent where they give up a single good (11+ point) secondary against us, leading us to really only being able to run teleport homers/deploy scramblers and linebreaker/engage.

I find that almost every other army has at least 3 decent options and we don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We need a really good codex secondary when we get our codex in late 2022.

Played VS my ork opponent again today.

It went well, but by my turn 3 it was over. (He was on the play.)

I have left 2 abberants, 1 alpha Jackal, 1 ridge runner, 1 leman russ and 15 acolytes who failed their charge. 5 acolytes randomly around.

He had left 1 undamaged gorkanaught with the upgraded gun, 1 Dakkajet, 1 truck with 1 wound left and 10 flashgits in it. 5 rocket boys and 1 rocket boys leader.

It is just so overwhelming screening against all his deep strike shenanigans. And the gorka or morkanaught is just so damn dangerush. And I never manage to kill the airplane. That airplane just has to die if I am to hold objectives with small guard like units.

It went rather good for while. If some rolls had gone better it might have worked.




Next time I think maiby I can cut the 3 deploy scrambler units and shotgun unit. They did rather little. Perhaps things could improve if I could kill the airplane.

The abberants where a mistake. I need more power tool acolytes instead.

I'm having a lot of fun and success with 6 firetrucks and 6 lazer cars with the (yuck) hivecult. I was able to sprinkle 15 10 point rocksaws throughout the list to pump my melee damage output.

But i want to talk about Rock cutters. I think this is the answer to death guard. They are d3 and each time to deal damage you can just kill a guy. It kills plague marines on 2+ and terminators on 3+

Im trying them out today but I think they are going to murder characters.

fun story.. they can also kill Mortarion.

I asume you are playing on some form of program? And not not the tabletopp? Getting together 12 trucks seems impossible IRL. At the very least far to exspensive.

Negative. I have 9 Golaiths/Rockgrinders

Its beautiful. In this case the list is Hivecult

Primus heart of the creed,

WL Jackal Alphus -Hivelord

Magus Cult Psyche-Crouchling
2 familiars

1 unit of 5 Acolyte Hybrids with 5 flamers, 1 rock cutter and banner

5 units of 10 Acolyte hybrids with hand flamers, 3 rock cutters and a banner

6 Ridge runners with heavy mining lasers

6 Goliath Trucks

Why are you running Hive Cult with that list?

2 reasons.

Hivelord lets you reroll 1s to hit with the Mining laser cars and the rock trucks.

You can fall back with acolytes and fire Xd6 autohitting flamer shots and open up a unit for shooting.

Each truck carries 10d6 12 inch flamers which can be fired in combat because they are pistols.

Its an overwatch threat as well.

you get about 30-40 hits and usually about 8 wounds on T6+ i was able to flamer off 8-10 wounds off a knight with them



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just checking back in. Can confirm rock cutters are amazing. D3 damage and the instant kill is totally worth the -1 to hit. Killed 4 characters with the cutters with single hits where I would have needed 4+ rocksaw wounds.

dreadlybrew wrote:
2 reasons.

Hivelord lets you reroll 1s to hit with the Mining laser cars and the rock trucks.

You can fall back with acolytes and fire Xd6 autohitting flamer shots and open up a unit for shooting.

Each truck carries 10d6 12 inch flamers which can be fired in combat because they are pistols.

Its an overwatch threat as well.

you get about 30-40 hits and usually about 8 wounds on T6+ i was able to flamer off 8-10 wounds off a knight with them



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just checking back in. Can confirm rock cutters are amazing. D3 damage and the instant kill is totally worth the -1 to hit. Killed 4 characters with the cutters with single hits where I would have needed 4+ rocksaw wounds.

Ever since the increase in 3W models with the Gravis models Cutters have become more and more worth it, glad to see they worked for you.

Expect to see 30pt rock cutters in the near future when GW sees that they're actually a good counter to death guard/dark angels.

That and a -2 to hit roll so that you can't use a primus to negate it.

For those interested in the vehicle and character portion of the list. This is a solid footprint

dreadlybrew wrote:
For those interested in the vehicle and character portion of the list. This is a solid footprint

Sorry but Hive Cult there makes no sense: for a reroll 1s to hit on shooting (that applies only to the vehicle part) you lose out on REROLL ALL HITS IN MELEE for all your Acolytes which also have a rock cutters there where it's ABSOLUTELY a necessity.

I've honestly never considered pauper princes - considering with a primus+cult banner we can get 2+/rr1 where it matters, it's never felt necessary.

Obv that was before cutters started making sense.

Nah man. Rerolling 1s in combat is enough. Rerolling 1s on 6d3 heavy mining laser shots, 20ish autocannons and an average of 42 stubber shots is worth more than re rolling 2s on cutters.

In a perfect world you don't even need to get out of the trucks with the acolytes.

I agree with you if I am deep striking blobs of 20 with 8 cutters re rolling everything is a force multiplier but not in this list.

You only get to reroll 1s within 6” of the Hive Lord Alphus, and with Pauper Princes you get to reroll all hits on the charge. You could use this to save ~60 points on banners and pick up an additional neophyte squad or 5 more flame hybrids.

Yeah, it's only a reroll hits within 6", which is not going to impact more than a small fraction of that army at a time.

Wow that looks very good. Nice to see so many cars!