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 Dysartes wrote:


I hope that last bit isn't you encouraging people to pirate it...

Yes, what a shame it would be if someone did that. I don't condone it at all. Finger wags all around to anyone doing that!

Hankovitch wrote:
I encourage it wholeheartedly. Pirate this content; keep playing the game without paying for GW's blatantly anti-consumer books. They'll only stop doing it when consumers stop rewarding them for it.

While I would never publicly (on the internet at least) encourage theft or piracy of intellectual property, I will point out that GW is QUICKLY going to have to reverse course and grow in popularity and acceptance among its fan base. We are at best years 5-10 years from 3D printers becoming so affordable/easy to use that if GW doesn't enhance its public image than a lot of people are just going to print their own models entirely. And tying this into CA. Almost nobody likes the current situation of rules releases in 40k. CA is a joke and we all know it. What GW should have done is tie this into their subscription based Rules App. Of course...for us to like the app they would probably have had to hire competent application coders instead of their friend bob who lives at his parents house still. (joke...except about how bad the app is). Put it this way, change the strategy from paper bound codexs/CA/rules to all App based, charge $5-6 a month and you probably walk out the door with MORE money than ever before. How many actually subscribe to the app? How many would if the codex's etc were free inside?

I always say this and its the damn truth in my opinion, GW is successful in spite of itself rather than because of itself.

keep playing the game to keep 40k the go to game for people who have no fixed group, or are new to wargaming
so that those walk straight to GW and throw money at them because they don't know about 3rd party models, 3D printing and how to pirate the rules, aka do free advertising for their product to reward them for their business practice

We all know GW only gets away with what they do because of popularity inertia. It sucks because with no real competition they really have to pile on the mistakes for the consequences to be felt. Shame they forgot 2016 so quickly.

SemperMortis wrote:
While I would never publicly (on the internet at least) encourage theft or piracy of intellectual property, I will point out that GW is QUICKLY going to have to reverse course and grow in popularity and acceptance among its fan base. We are at best years 5-10 years from 3D printers becoming so affordable/easy to use that if GW doesn't enhance its public image than a lot of people are just going to print their own models entirely.

People have been saying this about film studios for twenty years and it hasn't panned out at all.

Is there a comprehensive write up anywhere of the points changes? Either from a reviews or rumours or something?

I’ve seen the full changes for a couple of factions but most I haven’t been able to find and are just what WarCom revealed (and goonhammer didn’t add much to). I saw sprues and brews had a post but it seems that half of the changes were from the previous CA?

Vigilus Alone preview...and datasheets for the Gravis Captain and Ancient

It may be that Renegade Chapters just end up being folded into the Build-Your-Own-Subfaction system they have in most other codexes now? Although I wouldn't be shocked if we saw a Day 7 splatbook announced which sells you the Purge, Scourge, etc rules for £30 either.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We all know GW only gets away with what they do because of popularity inertia. It sucks because with no real competition they really have to pile on the mistakes for the consequences to be felt. Shame they forgot 2016 so quickly.

They forgot 2016 quickly because they rebounded pretty much instantly. Give it a year and a half, we'll have a 'clean slate' with 10th and people will be heralding that GW have changed and are listening and care, etc, etc.

If any other wargame makes a mistake, that's it, they're done. People jump ship and it will never rebound.

If Games Workshop makes enough mistakes to finally rock the boat a bit, they're given infinite chances to come back swinging. It's hilarious.

3D printing won't hurt GW for the same reason Citadel paints sell so well, ignorance and unwillingness to step out of the GW bubble. The vast majority of people will be happier paying £40 for a kit of Marines over investing in the upfront cost of a 3D printer and then faffing about with it, even if long term that works out far, far cheaper. If anything it will actually be a POSITIVE for GW because it's far more likely to hurt their competitors.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Vigilus Alone preview...and datasheets for the Gravis Captain and Ancient

Oh good. More layered rules for 'Gravis Captains', but probably not the Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe, who also has a Master Crafted Power Sword, but likely hasn't learnt those "fighting stances" yet.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Vigilus Alone preview...and datasheets for the Gravis Captain and Ancient

Oh good. More layered rules for 'Gravis Captains', but probably not the Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe, who also has a Master Crafted Power Sword, but likely hasn't learnt those "fighting stances" yet.

This datasheet has the same name as the one we had for the old gravis captain. Does it replace it? We would loose the option for the master crafted sword, but get fancy new rules for a basic one.

Also a lost opportunity to condense sheets, but no shock they passed on that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Vigilus Alone preview...and datasheets for the Gravis Captain and Ancient

Oh good. More layered rules for 'Gravis Captains', but probably not the Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe, who also has a Master Crafted Power Sword, but likely hasn't learnt those "fighting stances" yet.

This has got to be peak GW bloat. Not only do we get another datasheet instead of a consolidation of the existing ones, this one has additional rules for no reason I can see. On top of that, the "Gravis Fighting Styles" seem to be about offense, which is thematically weird since Gravis is the slow, ponderous, defensive armour.

Does this also mean we have 2 datasheets with the same name but different options?

Slipspace wrote:
This has got to be peak GW bloat. Not only do we get another datasheet instead of a consolidation of the existing ones, this one has additional rules for no reason I can see.

Yup, expanding existing sheet to actually give it options playes asked for for years now is BLOAT now. In other news, sky is pink

And the reason is obvious to anyone who give it any thought, the model pays for two melee weapons. It's just expanded version of rule giving stuff like two eldari swords or pair of claws +1 attack, otherwise the points would be wasted. Hell, when the model was first previewed people hoped taking fist will give the model +1 attack to make it less redundant, but apparently giving people what they asked for is bad these days

People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Random joe-bob space marine captain doesn't need text bloat to have 6, 7 or 8 attacks depending on what weapon he carries.

It really highlights how asinine this system is though. The gauntlet and power fist are functionally identical, but if he has both, you still technically have to designate which one he's using, as 0-5 attacks can come from either weapon, but the 'additional' attack absolutely has to come from the power fist.

Slipspace wrote:Does this also mean we have 2 datasheets with the same name but different options?

Eyep.
Presumably a master-crafted powersword is enough like a relic that he magically forgets his 'fightin' stylin,'' but not sure what the weird game effects are from having 2 same name datasheets.

Do we even have two same-name datasheets? As I understand things, this new datasheet would override the old one in the same way that a new codex's datasheets override the old ones.

Rihgu wrote:
Do we even have two same-name datasheets? As I understand things, this new datasheet would override the old one in the same way that a new codex's datasheets override the old ones.

The article doesn't suggest that. It says they're new datasheets for the new models.

It also contains datasheets for these two new Space Marine heroes.

However, we’re so keen to see them hit the table that we’re also making their datasheets available to download right here – completely for free.

Maybe there are unrevealed replacement rules in the campaign book, but at the moment the existing gravis captain with MC powersword doesn't use this datasheet, and the new models don't use the old datasheets.

Voss wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Do we even have two same-name datasheets? As I understand things, this new datasheet would override the old one in the same way that a new codex's datasheets override the old ones.

The article doesn't suggest that. It says they're new datasheets for the new models.

It also contains datasheets for these two new Space Marine heroes.

However, we’re so keen to see them hit the table that we’re also making their datasheets available to download right here – completely for free.

Maybe there are unrevealed replacement rules in the campaign book, but at the moment the existing gravis captain with MC powersword doesn't use this datasheet, and the new models don't use the old datasheets.

The Captain in Gravis Armour has clearly been spending some time in the practice cages, because he can now replace his traditional power sword with a chainsword or a power fist. He’s even mastered Gravis Fighting Styles to make the most of his new weapons.

Is very much implying that it's a replacement sheet to me. "because he can now" wouldn't make sense if it's a brand new data sheet, because then he couldn't have done anything before. The "now" would be the first iteration.

Voss wrote:
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.

Not to mention relics make the grav styles non-functional.

Is anyone actually taking the chainsword option over a teeth of terra?

The grav styles are cool in some respect, but also, they should be MC weapons, otherwise it still won't be used.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.

Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.

Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.

Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.

My point should have been obvious - A Boltstorm Gauntlet already has the same profile as a Powerfist. GW releasing the model without giving it a special rule to justify it taking the Fist would make it a completely worthless option. Even the existing Master-crafted Powersword on the old model was mostly useless, as the additonal strength on the Gauntlet meant it was usually equally as good if not better than the sword.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.

Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.

Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.

My point should have been obvious - A Boltstorm Gauntlet already has the same profile as a Powerfist. GW releasing the model without giving it a special rule to justify it taking the Fist would make it a completely worthless option. Even the existing Master-crafted Powersword on the old model was mostly useless, as the additonal strength on the Gauntlet meant it was usually equally as good if not better than the sword.

Or they could've just not included the Power Fist for the model, as one Power Fist and one Boltstorm Gauntlet looks a lot sillier than two Boltstorm Gauntlets (which was actually asked for).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.

Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.

Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.

My point should have been obvious - A Boltstorm Gauntlet already has the same profile as a Powerfist. GW releasing the model without giving it a special rule to justify it taking the Fist would make it a completely worthless option. Even the existing Master-crafted Powersword on the old model was mostly useless, as the additonal strength on the Gauntlet meant it was usually equally as good if not better than the sword.

Well, no, that wasn't obvious, since you clipped my post to cut out the bit where I point out how absurd the powerfist is. So you disagreeing with me to also complain about the powerfist didn't strike me as a possibility.

Semper wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+

I import goods for a living and I can assure you the time necessary to bring goods to market by container is measured in months, not weeks. And that is from the point of completed materials. Before that you have to add in production time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it takes GW 4-6 months from finalized copy to be ready to release a book for sale.

One of my closest friends is a Merchant Marine He routinely travels to Asia from the Pacific Northwest (Seattle/Tacoma) on big cargo ships. His two-way trip usually took 45-55 days, i know because when I was stuck out on that coast I would grab a beer with him when he pulled into harbor. SO no, if it takes 4-6 months for a company to print a book and ship it, then they fail as a company

So 15-30 days to traverse the pacific (biggest ocean) on a cargo ship. So that leaves MONTHS to print and distribute the book. So no, I don't believe it takes them 4-6 months to write new rules and print them and ship them around the world...and that again is only if they are using a SINGLE print location which would be a bit silly unless that print location is dirt cheap and the shipping costs aren't going to just artificially destroy the price...(Sorry australia)

I work in production, import, export and have a lot of business knowledge and just no. A perfectly managed (people issues such as absences, process, policy, inter-personal, delivery checks, distribution network) with no transport (weather is a thing, criminals), trade (borders, processing, changing legislation, docking ports, unloading/loading are things), admin (right paperwork at the right time both internal and external), quality (test, check, feedback and correct), communication (time zones, language barriers, memory) or tech issues (scanners, machinery, computers, ERP software)... sure.

A normal, realistic organisation in this reality on earth... no. So much can and will go wrong.

Also, as a guy in the book retail industry, with close friends in a major publisher, a 'major print company' can't bang out a hundred thousand to a million books a day. First of all, nobody's printing a million copies of one book in a day. Second, printers are having issues getting paper, ink, parts.

Third, and most importantly, no major print company just has printers sitting around doing nothing waiting for something to print. There's a print schedule, which is already royally screwed up by COVID, and you're not going to get something stuck in there at the last minute unless it is absolutely a cash cow (a tribute to Betty White, a major expose on a major political figure, etc.). You've got books on the schedule for six months, nine months, a year out. You have reprints for books that have sold out that are waiting two to three months (and these are books that are SOLD OUT of the first edition completely).

In a vacuum, a publisher could knock out some book for GW in a matter of days (packaging, shipping, receiving, and distributing them are all other issues), but nobody is sitting around on industrial color printers with no jobs at all lined up.

Indeed. The publishers all use the same printers anyway. Colour is printed in the Far East and takes months to ship. If you don’t have any clue about the books supply chain best not open your mouth.

Sounds like digital rules are the way to go!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.

Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.

Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.

Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.

Off the top of my head:
Archons went from 4/5 attacks in 5-7th to 5 attacks in 9th.
Haemonculi went from 3/4 attacks in 5-7th to 4 attacks in 9th.
Succubi went from 4/5 attacks in 5-7th to 6(!) attacks in 9th.
Autarchs went from 3/4 attacks in 5-7th to 4 attacks in 9th.
Farseers went from 1/2 attacks in 5-7th to 2 attacks in 9th.
Troupe Masters went from 3/4 attacks in 7th to 5 attacks in 9th (when they moved from a squad-leader to an HQ).
Shadowseers went from 3/4 attacks in 7th to 3 attacks in 9th.
Corsair Princes went from 3/4 attacks in 7th to ceasing to exist in 9th.

Man, I see why Space Marine Captains needed to go from 3/4 attacks to 6+ to keep up with that rampant attack inflation.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Not to mention relics make the grav styles non-functional.

Is anyone actually taking the chainsword option over a teeth of terra?

The grav styles are cool in some respect, but also, they should be MC weapons, otherwise it still won't be used.

Under the new rules, all three of them have a use, even ignoring allowing the Captain to use certain relics.

Under the 9th Edition Codex, you get 5 attack divided between the Boltstorm Gauntlet and the Master-Crafted Power Sword. So you are choosing between x2 S with -1 to Hit and +1S. The only time the MCPS is better is against T2 and T9 since the improved Wound Roll at least makes up for the Hit Penalty.

Now the new improved Captain gets to make (excluding other sources of bonus attacks) either:

5 Boltstorm Gauntlet Attacks plus 3 Astartes Chainsword Accounts

5 Boltstorm Gauntlet Attacks plus 2 Power Sword attacks

6 Power Fist/Boltstorm Gauntlet attacks

And the point cost of the unit is the same no matter which option you take. I suspect that is why the Chainsword and Power Sword are not master-crafted.

I can see why this is important enough so it cannot wait until the new Codex is out

just glad that no other faction has the need for such important changes to release free digital updates

 Irbis wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
This has got to be peak GW bloat. Not only do we get another datasheet instead of a consolidation of the existing ones, this one has additional rules for no reason I can see.

Yup, expanding existing sheet to actually give it options playes asked for for years now is BLOAT now. In other news, sky is pink

I'm not talking about the weapon options (though it's also semi-bloat given we still have at least one extra Gravis datasheet even if this one replaces the original Gravis Captain one). I'm talking about tacking on extra rules for fighting styles instead of just leaving the model with different options. You'll notice I said rules, not options. Or maybe you didn't in your rush to be sarcastic and condescending.

It used to be the case that if you wanted your Captain to be good at killing different things you gave them different weapons and that was it. That's why we have different weapons in the first place. These fighting styles are just another example of pointless additional rules because GW is apparently unable to create a datasheet without a bespoke special rule on it now. If the problem is the model has 2 close combat weapons, which is largely useless, that's another piece of GW stupidity where the sculpting takes primacy over the game itself.