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as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

A2 should just be part of their standard rules. Custodes are Astartes +1. Why don't they at the bare minimum also get Bolter Discipline?

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

Thank you, but no, I need more!

This sounds cute. If you were going to run lots of Sag guard, good one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

A2 should just be part of their standard rules. Custodes are Astartes +1. Why don't they at the bare minimum also get Bolter Discipline?

It's been said a couple times. We don't get Bolter Discipline because Astartes are so bolter focused, so ingrained to it in their 'culture', in a way Space Marines just aren't.

Just a quick question.
Are caladius grav Tanks worth it?
Because i realy like the Model, but they are f**** expensive money wise. Is it realy worth buying them?

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

That Kata seems the least appealing by far. Weapon range is mostly pointless and I have a suspicioon that the double shoot part of the Kata will be the new superior firing patterns.....meaning we'll probably lose the strat. If the Kata also only let's you double shoot rapid fire, it's kinda crappy to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gesundheit wrote:
Just a quick question.
Are caladius grav Tanks worth it?
Because i realy like the Model, but they are f**** expensive money wise. Is it realy worth buying them?

Imo if you like the model enough where you'd enjoy painting it and playing with it, then it is worth buying it.

Regarding gameplay: the caladius had its time in the sun in 8th Ed where they were played as a mobile shooting castle buffed by Trajann.
The meta has since shifted away from them since our dreadnoughts are better at contesting and holding the center of the board.

It's also impossible to say whether the caladius will be a good pick in the new codex. Now to avoid confusion: the cladadius won't be IN our new codex since it's Forgeworld, but I mean what synergies it might have with new codex rules, strats, character buffs etc.

So if the gameplay part is the deciding factor here, I'd wait until the codex drops.

The Caladius does not have core so it will no longer benefit from rerolls or banners in the new codex. This is a huge nerf to an already nerfed vehicle.

It was some of our only efficient long range firepower and has been continually getting blasted since the end of 8th and all through 9th.

I own 3 and while i do love them, i doubt when our new codex drops we are gonna be running 3 of them anymore.

I know it was originally intended for a strat to be given to them to replace their lost -2 to charge them ability, but whether we get it or not im not sure.

They need to drop down to like 180pts after the codex drops though since loss of rerolls and banner buffs is a huge nerf to them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The Caladius does not have core so it will no longer benefit from rerolls or banners in the new codex. This is a huge nerf to an already nerfed vehicle.

It was some of our only efficient long range firepower and has been continually getting blasted since the end of 8th and all through 9th.

I own 3 and while i do love them, i doubt when our new codex drops we are gonna be running 3 of them anymore.

I know it was originally intended for a strat to be given to them to replace their lost -2 to charge them ability, but whether we get it or not im not sure.

They need to drop down to like 180pts after the codex drops though since loss of rerolls and banner buffs is a huge nerf to them.

While all of that is true, we still simply do not know if there is going to be something in the new codex that might help them be useful again, even without CORE. So here's hoping.

I gotta be honest, this new kata tips the scales HEAVILY in favor of our FW infantry. Why take regular terminators when you can take FW ones that shoot their guns twice? Why take Guardians when 3 sag cost less, can do more, and count the same for obsec?

Finally, it seems like bikes are dead. No buffs, and no word on points drops.

Also, I'm kinda wondering if there will be any change to the way FGLTC works now in 9th? I was really expecting a change to that.

That is IF FW units get Katas.
I know, it would be absolutely ridiculous for them not to get it - but it's GW we're talking about.

After all, they might've balanced that kata around being able to shoot Sentinel Blades twice.

I don't see bikes going anywhere now too.
With the recent nerfs to already struggling Custodes actions, bikes are... just... not appealing.

On the Terminator front - I dont see how that affects Aquilons differently than Allarus? They have different jobs, character hunting (which we already could do better with Superior Fire Patterns, that's essentially a nerf for that) vs Horde Clearing (who the hell needs Terminators for that) vs Monster Killing (with fists UNLESS it has -1D somehow)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I gotta be honest, this new kata tips the scales HEAVILY in favor of our FW infantry. Why take regular terminators when you can take FW ones that shoot their guns twice? Why take Guardians when 3 sag cost less, can do more, and count the same for obsec?

Finally, it seems like bikes are dead. No buffs, and no word on points drops.

Also, I'm kinda wondering if there will be any change to the way FGLTC works now in 9th? I was really expecting a change to that.

Regarding the new kata, I think it still very much depends on which weapons are included in its shoot twice clause. If it only includes rapid fire weapons it won't affect sagittarium at all and would be a nerf for Aquilon IF we lose superior firing patterns.

I know you love bikes, but don't write them off just now. We still need to see a lot of shield host rules and there are still 2 Katas to be revealed. Also relics, warlord traits and new strats could play a big role in their viability.

Don't forget: it only took one strat to make venatari viable and push them to one of our best units.

The only things we have seen zero for, and this is true for most factions I think, is new rules for FW units. GW seems to be flat out ignoring them. That being the case, if it's only RF weapons then Aquilons with storm bolters are a WAY better choice, getting 8 shots essentially. If it's not restricted, thats 2d6 auto-hitting heavy flamer with 12" range. If sags don't get it then it would be GW changing their trend of not mucking with FW.

I don't see a bright future for this faction. They've turned the simplest, new player friendly faction, into one of the more complicated rules bloated messes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I gotta be honest, this new kata tips the scales HEAVILY in favor of our FW infantry. Why take regular terminators when you can take FW ones that shoot their guns twice? Why take Guardians when 3 sag cost less, can do more, and count the same for obsec?

Finally, it seems like bikes are dead. No buffs, and no word on points drops.

Also, I'm kinda wondering if there will be any change to the way FGLTC works now in 9th? I was really expecting a change to that.

Hang in there Mr. Doom-and-Gloom! Our very same leaker said Bikes are getting +1W, which means it takes 3 2 damage shots to kill them rather than 2. That's pretty significant. They're also keeping the 4++ according to him. From the CA2022 reveals, we also know Jetbikes can now perform additional secondary actions they didn't used to be able to (like the new Scramblers/ROD).

I think they've still got hope for some legs, but we'll need to see the stratagems.

Audustum wrote:


Hang in there Mr. Doom-and-Gloom! Our very same leaker said Bikes are getting +1W, which means it takes 3 2 damage shots to kill them rather than 2. That's pretty significant. They're also keeping the 4++ according to him. From the CA2022 reveals, we also know Jetbikes can now perform additional secondary actions they didn't used to be able to (like the new Scramblers/ROD).

I think they've still got hope for some legs, but we'll need to see the stratagems.

Finally, some semblance of positivity in here! I agree, honestly there's way too much we still don't know so it's way too early for anyone to start proclaiming "x is dead, we're a y army now" or "z rule looks underwhelming/bad, Custodes is dead" without any other kind of context and before seeing how it'll interact with all the other rules we might be getting. New codexes tend to turn internal metas on their head, so I'd hold off on all the pessimism until we have the codex for ourselves.

In addition, the leaks and common trends indicate Salvo Launchers should get the damage floor of melta weapons. That’s a huge boost to their consistency and would be our best way to handle Death Guard across the board.

Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

I think our leaker already said they're getting the melta treatment in his first spill so yeah, looks like we're probably getting it!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

As opposed to a weapon with two profiles that can reroll wounds against vehicles that does d6 and got a patch strat to do 2d6 drop the lowest that now is in an edition where most similar weapons have been changed to 1d3 + 3 and dropping the reroll/option to pick the highest result? Yes.

Sources: This same leaker and the trend of every 9th edition codex released so far.

So can I take it that you agree our bikes would be ridiculous with d3+3 damage missiles? I mean, unless they radically nerf us in points, that platform shooting 24" Melta weapons would be silly. I can see d3+1, but be realistic.

And this isn't doom and gloom. Bikes are my favorite unit, and I would desperately like to play them again in form fashion. They likely won't see Katas, as Cav aren't infantry, but if they nerf costs, I don't see them being valuable, no matter what weapons they bring. They are already cost prohibitive.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

Damage 2 is the anchor around the faction's neck. Any army with any access to minus 1 damage becomes unassailable

It's wild that a melee focused army doesn't have access to any melee weapons higher then damage 2 on any of its dedicated plastic units, except a special character. The redemptor's a loner from space marines. Particularly because they'd gone back and upped the damage characteristic of so many weapons.

I honestly don't get it, maybe they'll give stategems to compensate. Maybe not

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughtness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

If they're magna imeprator they can re-roll one of those Salvos too. Per-unit. I'm still partially 'on' for these guys. Can't wait to see the whole book.

Audustum wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughtness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

If they're magna imeprator they can re-roll one of those Salvos too. Per-unit. I'm still partially 'on' for these guys. Can't wait to see the whole book.

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughtness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

If they're magna imeprator they can re-roll one of those Salvos too. Per-unit. I'm still partially 'on' for these guys. Can't wait to see the whole book.

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

stratigo wrote:

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

4 attacks each hitting on 2+ S6 (maybe S7 now?) AP-3 2 damage with a wound bonus when they charge. It's certainly not bad and they probably don't want to be the ones to get charged either way, but they probably want to bully troops or units that don't fight well off of objectives. Either way we're still missing plenty of rules we don't know about that could put them over the edge and how they'll interact with each other to say for certain.

stratigo wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

then question become, how to deal with sm dreadnought list. 2 bikes are basically more expensive than a contemptor.

Potential answers would have:
1. Ares
2. Caladius 2-3
3. Alot, alot of meta spear foot guard

This was what happened the last time I played with sm, 3 contemptor + guiliman + deredo + honour guard + alot of plasma shoota.

Luckily I was on ultramarine side, playing 2 vs 2 in 4000pts.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

4 attacks each hitting on 2+ S6 (maybe S7 now?) AP-3 2 damage with a wound bonus when they charge. It's certainly not bad and they probably don't want to be the ones to get charged either way, but they probably want to bully troops or units that don't fight well off of objectives. Either way we're still missing plenty of rules we don't know about that could put them over the edge and how they'll interact with each other to say for certain.

From experience, even with re-roll wounds, I generally didn't want to hit Terminators, even Custodes Terminators, due to Transhuman. It was effectively a tarpit that would smack me harder than I smacked it. I don't think that calculus changes. The Jetbikes primarily want to hit stuff that, at worst, can fight O.K. but isn't super durable itself. Charging Incubi, if in range of a leadership debuff, could still be dicey, but slamming into them regular? Sure! Cronos? Go blow them up! GK Interceptors? Yeah!

Dreadknights? Ehhhh, soften it up with Salvo first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

superninja_834 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

then question become, how to deal with sm dreadnought list. 2 bikes are basically more expensive than a contemptor.

Potential answers would have:
1. Ares
2. Caladius 2-3
3. Alot, alot of meta spear foot guard

This was what happened the last time I played with sm, 3 contemptor + guiliman + deredo + honour guard + alot of plasma shoota.

Luckily I was on ultramarine side, playing 2 vs 2 in 4000pts.

Trying to make a TAC list that also accounts for dreadnoughts, I'm thinking it's more about weathering the fire than disabling it. None of our stuff really hits hard enough except Achillus and (melee) Telemon dreads to rip them apart, but Storm Shield Guardians can probably hang on long enough to just outscore that kind of castle.

So its looking like for the 6 Ka'tah's we have:

1 Mobility based
2 Offensive shooting
3 Offensive melee
4 Defensive
5 Action based
6 ???

I havent seen a comprehensive list yet (and there could currently not be one).


Shield guard and Spear guard will likely be the same points now 40-45pts. With swords having +1sv and pistol vs the spears higher strength and longer range shooting. Very balanced against each other now and spears might see play again.