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Well neither is points. But anyway pl or points is irrelevant here as i'm not the one deciding nor do i have particular need to alter.

(Btw i suspect 6k was picked to fit warlord. With pl thus would be significant drop)

Thinking about a mech list, either deff skullz or snakebites can be really good for the task. Or maybe a mix. Deffskull tankbustas are great. But you're probably running a kff mek in a mech list anywayz, so the bulk could benefit from snakebites. 1-2 extra wounds for a trukk and around 3 for a wagon. Ain't bad. Also, helps out the squads inside thar are most likely nobz or meganobz.

 koooaei wrote:
Thinking about a mech list, either deff skullz or snakebites can be really good for the task. Or maybe a mix. Deffskull tankbustas are great. But you're probably running a kff mek in a mech list anywayz, so the bulk could benefit from snakebites. 1-2 extra wounds for a trukk and around 3 for a wagon. Ain't bad. Also, helps out the squads inside thar are most likely nobz or meganobz.

IMO the snakebites trait is inferior to both blood axes and deffskulls.

None of the three provide protection that is in any way reliable, but falling back and charging/shooting or the one re-roll per turn are always going to do something.

Nobz, trukks and battlewagons (4+)
Blood Axes: +1 to save unless the weapon is AP-4 or better. So you get saves against anything that's not Helblasters or lances. Falling back and charging will be great for deffrolla wagons.
Deff Skulls is a 6++ save if the weapons is AP-3 or better. That's almost all dedicated anti-tank, but does nothing against gatling and autocannon-style weapons. You might want to stick a kannon on your wagon to make use of the re-roll.

Walkers, planes, mek guns (3+)
Blood Axes: +1 to save unless the weapon is AP-5 or better. Falling back, shooting and then charging the next thing with nauts and kanz? Yes, please.
Deff Skulls: 6++ against AP-4 or better. The one re-roll also has high impact on to-wound rolls as all walkers are packing high damage weapons in CC and/or melee.

Boyz, gretchin
Blood Axes: +1 to save unless the weapon is AP-2 or better. I don't think this is that much better than snakebites, since quite some anti-infantry weaponry is AP-2-. Also doesn't help in combat, which is boyz are trying to get.
Deff Skulls: 6++ against stuff with an AP, the one re-roll has some potential to do something on a PK nob. Against single damage weapons without AP, snakebites is clearly better, against multi-damage weapons (knights!) it does next to nothing.

So, I'd say blood axes for walkers, deff skulls for the mechanized infantry and snakebites for hordes.

If we were trying to run a dreadmob type list similar to the 7th formation. What do you think would be our best bet in terms of clan trait?

Snakebite for hordes gets screwed the moment you start rolling dozens of boyz with 2-3 dice per boy fishing for those double/triple 6's. Say hello to time limits.

For hordes it's evil sunz. +3" on turns you advance+charge. WAAAGH!

edit: Something to consider. In 2 turns normally boyz will move 10+2d6+possible charge 2d6=17+2d6" charge=24" charge distance. 24" between armies and opponent unlikely to line up gunline exactly at line so that's not really enough to count for T2 charge with boyz vs gunline.

With evil sunz however that becomes 12"+2d6"+2+2d6"+1=21"+2d6"+1=29" charge range. That's notably easier to reach for T2 assault...So you could basically be looking at 50% less shooting before you hit line nevermind ability to da jump and do 8" charge with rerolls. From about 50-50 to notably better chance. So much more reliable.

Stormboyz go to 13"+d6"+1+2d6"+1=15"+3d6". 25" so bit unreliable for T1 charge but at least possible. Getting that T1 charge off could be big.

Where have people spotted the traits previews? I’ve had my eye on Bols and spiked bits as well as warhammer community and haven’t spotted anything so far other than the stratagem. Has anything else been confirmed or still rumours?

Uuuh wonder what page those are now Maybe the OP in general board would have more? But to summarize(now mind you these are still not 100% pure but several different sources have said these so start to be fairly reliable and if these are not accurate neither likely are strategem ones)

goff: 6 to hit in h2h extra attack
evil sunz: +1 to move, advance, charge, may shoot assaut weapon without -1 to hit after advance
snakebite: 6+ FNP
deathskull: 6++, some sort of reroll thing akin to salamanders
bad moons: reroll 1's in shooting
blood axes: Always count as in cover, may fall back and assault(not sure about shooting)
Freebotas had something about extra BS if they shoot unit.

Not bad ones though maybe bit less inventive than others. Generally codexes have had at least one unique one but these are all basically all seen except freebotas. But bigger issue I have is that some of those result in VERY weird playstyles compared to what you would expect:

Evil sunz. Forget bikes, buggies, planes etc. You want dreadnoughts, gorkanauts and basic boyz. They are master of ambush.
Blood axe: Cover? We need no stinking cover! Charge over open field!
Snakebite: Stompa builder supreme! As well as gorkanaut etc. Their trait helps VEHICLES more than infantry(plus with infantry it's bloody pain in the ass to roll in timely manner. I will flat out boycot this trait for good. Nope. Never. Until FNP becomes faster I will never ever EVER build snakebites. Period)

Big winners are evil sunz(helps a lot green tide and suddenly deep strike+charge becomes reasonable reliable) and blood axe(5+ vs shooting even for basic guys and fall back and assault. Ironically this trait is what you want to give to bikes, buggies etc...). Death skulls are bit less oomphy toke as I love painting death skulls these will be my 2nd standard clan.

Bad moons is the clan to go for KMK's and well 59 shot from shoota mob + maybe rokkits/big shootas if price drops on those(albeit drops shoota shots) could be handy. I like my shoota boyz anyway as it is as they are ATM my best killers. Only issue being that evil sunz is just so awesome trait as is blood axe(though as I don't have any and don't feel like buying boyz for FIFTH clan yet won't personally use them for a while)

tneva82 wrote:
Snakebite for hordes gets screwed the moment you start rolling dozens of boyz with 2-3 dice per boy fishing for those double/triple 6's. Say hello to time limits.

For hordes it's evil sunz. +3" on turns you advance+charge. WAAAGH!

edit: Something to consider. In 2 turns normally boyz will move 10+2d6+possible charge 2d6=17+2d6" charge=24" charge distance. 24" between armies and opponent unlikely to line up gunline exactly at line so that's not really enough to count for T2 charge with boyz vs gunline.

With evil sunz however that becomes 12"+2d6"+2+2d6"+1=21"+2d6"+1=29" charge range. That's notably easier to reach for T2 assault...So you could basically be looking at 50% less shooting before you hit line nevermind ability to da jump and do 8" charge with rerolls. From about 50-50 to notably better chance. So much more reliable.

Stormboyz go to 13"+d6"+1+2d6"+1=15"+3d6". 25" so bit unreliable for T1 charge but at least possible. Getting that T1 charge off could be big.

Honestly, the way you have worded this made it a little confusing, at least for me. I followed along after rereading it a bit. I'll try to simplify it in case anyone had the same issue.

Ork boy 1 turn: 6" move with trait.(5"+1"), 2"-7" advance move(1"+1" or 6"+1"), 3"-13" charge range(2-12 +1). Total 1 turn threat range: 11" to 25". Using average d6 and 2d6 rolls = 18" range with rerollable charges.

Stormboys: 13" move with trait.(5"+1"), 2" to 7" advance move(1"+1" or 6"+1"), 3"-13" charge range(2-12 +1) . Total 1 turn threat range: 18" to 32". Using average d6 and 2d6 rolls = 25" range with rerollable charges.

Do not forget. The extra inch on the charge range does not allow you to charge a unit outside 12". It just allows you to make a 12" charge with a roll of 11 or 12 on 2d6. For this reason I subtracted 1" from the range since they would still have to be within 12" even though we can charge 13".

If any of this is incorrect, please correct me.

I’ve already painted all my vehicles and Boyz up red, and always used them as evil sunz. I hope the rumoured rules are confirmed soon as they sound awesome. Hope also they apply to the army as a whole and not just infantry, dreadnauts and bikers as seems to be the case in other books. Guess not long to wait to find out!

One thing to consider in regards to the Traits there is a very good chance they could only apply to certain units like they do in the Marine Codex. Hope that's not the case but I could see the traits being limited to Boyz, Dreads, Killa Kans and maybe Trukks/Wagons

We don't know if snakebite trait stacks with painboss. So if it doesn't, it's not gona be very useful for hordes as there's very little reason not to take a painboy for them.
However, mech lists with lots of trukks, wagonz and bikes will benefit from 6+++.

I still prefer deffskull trait for hordes. It's durability increase for regular boyz is around the same as blood axes considering it works all the time and depending on the meta. My meta features tons of ap1 and higher. Much more than ap-. Also, keep in mind that you can still occasionally get cover and in this case blood axe trait, funnily enough, doesn't do anything. Deffskullz do benefit the rest of the list nicely. Getting a save from all those numerous ap3 weapons And in mellee. And a re-roll is great. My kmk and tankbustas were overperforming. One-shot a flyer. Killed a repulsor without much trouble. This re-roll is a difference between a dead enemy vehicle and a dead tankbusta squad. And yep, 6++ works like 3++ vs lazcannons

Not saying that it's best and ALL footsloggers must be deffskullz. It all depends on the preference and tasks. And it's good. I can see the benefit of running all three grand footslogging clanz (according to rules) - deffskullz, blood axez, evil sunz. Hard to say about snakebites yet. So far, painboss is allready a must. And getting both 6++ and 6+++ is very nice.

 gmaleron wrote:
One thing to consider in regards to the Traits there is a very good chance they could only apply to certain units like they do in the Marine Codex. Hope that's not the case but I could see the traits being limited to Boyz, Dreads, Killa Kans and maybe Trukks/Wagons

That was for first few codexes dropped almost immdiately. More likely marines go to apply all rather than other armies get that. Odds of that is VERY small.

Similarly don't expect -1 to hit traits any more. Seems GW realized how bad idea that is so people who expected blood axe to get that were just wishlisting big time.


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 koooaei wrote:
We don't know if snakebite trait stacks with painboss. So if it doesn't, it's not gona be very useful for hordes as there's very little reason not to take a painboy for them.
However, mech lists with lots of trukks, wagonz and bikes will benefit from 6+++.

I still prefer deffskull trait for hordes. It's durability increase for regular boyz is around the same as blood axes considering it works all the time and depending on the meta. My meta features tons of ap1 and higher. Much more than ap-. Also, keep in mind that you can still occasionally get cover and in this case blood axe trait, funnily enough, doesn't do anything. Deffskullz do benefit the rest of the list nicely. Getting a save from all those numerous ap3 weapons And in mellee. And a re-roll is great. My kmk and tankbustas were overperforming. One-shot a flyer. Killed a repulsor without much trouble. This re-roll is a difference between a dead enemy vehicle and a dead tankbusta squad. And yep, 6++ works like 3++ vs lazcannons

Not saying that it's best and ALL footsloggers must be deffskullz. It all depends on the preference and tasks. And it's good. I can see the benefit of running all three grand footslogging clanz (according to rules) - deffskullz, blood axez, evil sunz. Hard to say about snakebites yet. So far, painboss is allready a must. And getting both 6++ and 6+++ is very nice.

Yeah blood axes don't want to use cover anymore. Charge across open field!

Mind you I think evil sunz is especially vs gunline even better protection. T2 charge vs T3 charge means 1-2 rounds of shooting rather than 2-3 before hitting lines.

mhalko1 wrote:
If we were trying to run a dreadmob type list similar to the 7th formation. What do you think would be our best bet in terms of clan trait?

Almost definitely blood axes. +1 to armor is better for walkers than 6++ and FNP against almost all weapons in the game, and falling back, shooting and charging is very valuable for both kanz and nauts.


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tneva82 wrote:
Snakebite for hordes gets screwed the moment you start rolling dozens of boyz with 2-3 dice per boy fishing for those double/triple 6's. Say hello to time limits.

For hordes it's evil sunz. +3" on turns you advance+charge. WAAAGH!

edit: Something to consider. In 2 turns normally boyz will move 10+2d6+possible charge 2d6=17+2d6" charge=24" charge distance. 24" between armies and opponent unlikely to line up gunline exactly at line so that's not really enough to count for T2 charge with boyz vs gunline.

With evil sunz however that becomes 12"+2d6"+2+2d6"+1=21"+2d6"+1=29" charge range. That's notably easier to reach for T2 assault...So you could basically be looking at 50% less shooting before you hit line nevermind ability to da jump and do 8" charge with rerolls. From about 50-50 to notably better chance. So much more reliable.

Stormboyz go to 13"+d6"+1+2d6"+1=15"+3d6". 25" so bit unreliable for T1 charge but at least possible. Getting that T1 charge off could be big.

Don't forget 'ere we go in your math, it's slightly more than 7" average charge range.

Evil suns warbikers (nob bikers, biker warboss) are 17+3d6" and can shoot their guns on their way in. 27" should make for a pretty reliably first turn charge.


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tneva82 wrote:
Yeah blood axes don't want to use cover anymore. Charge across open field!

I have yet to claim cover in 8th edition for anything but lootas or gretchin.

Dunno. My gunlines are generally ~5" from the deployment line so that's 29" even if you start straight ahead. With that evil sunz bikers yeah it might be actually possible that close so I would deploy 1-2" more so 30-31".

Though yeah good point about 'ere we go. Wonder how much it could be counted. Guess at least inch. Needing to roll 9+ is too unreliable to rely on though.

Wonder when the codex comes out. My worst nightmare is preorders on 20.10. That would mean release on the day I have apoc game around 18.00..Would be rush to make 6k list with codex and learn rules

tneva82 wrote:
Dunno. My gunlines are generally ~5" from the deployment line so that's 29" even if you start straight ahead. With that evil sunz bikers yeah it might be actually possible that close so I would deploy 1-2" more so 30-31".

Though yeah good point about 'ere we go. Wonder how much it could be counted. Guess at least inch. Needing to roll 9+ is too unreliable to rely on though.

Rolling a 9" is about average (55% to roll 9 or more without using CP)

Warbikers pushing back your enemy that far might even work in your favor, since I assume that evil suns will rely heavily on the deep strike stratagem and da jump. They will lose out on a lot of board control if they try to dodge that one unit of warbikers, and next turn they might have MANz or worse in their lines, fighting twice.

More likely is a defensive deployment like people do to counter the bloodletter bomb, with scouts of rangers pushed far out to maximize deepstrike denial.

Wonder when the codex comes out. My worst nightmare is preorders on 20.10. That would mean release on the day I have apoc game around 18.00..Would be rush to make 6k list with codex and learn rules

If you pre-order the digital version, you can usually download it at midnight - if you are lucky and their webpage bugs again, maybe even sooner.

Btw i've found bomb squigs to be pretty useless for 10 pts as pretty much anything dangerous you're gona face at 18 range can fly.


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Can you mob up withbunits after deepstrike? Not the da jump, but regular deepstrike that happens at the end of movement phase?

 koooaei wrote:
Btw i've found bomb squigs to be pretty useless for 10 pts as pretty much anything dangerous you're gona face at 18 range can fly.

That really depends on how many tau or eldar you are facing. I have found myself using them to blow up aspect warriors, just to get my points back.

They work perfectly fine against most chaos, imperial or tyranid things though.

Can you mob up withbunits after deepstrike? Not the da jump, but regular deepstrike that happens at the end of movement phase?

No. According to multiple FAQs, you cannot use movement phase stratagems on models that have arrived at the end of movement.

I like bomb squigs, they basically auto hit vehicles and even without the reroll you can hit monsters pretty easily. 10 tankbustas with 2 squigs in a truck is my usual unit.

Tankhammers are trash but how does everyone feel about rokkit pistols? I want to like them

So two of the orks on the Boomdakka Snazzwagon are holding Molotov Cocktails.

What do you guys think the stats for those are gonna be?

I am guessing that they will be some kind og grenade weapon, maybe with auto-hit since it is fire related.

I'd guess a d6 grenade with S3 AP0 and maybe some additional effect.

Super quick br. Went up against dark eldar. Had 3warboss, 3 weirdboy. 6x30 boyz, 2x30, 28 and 10 grots, 4xkmk.

Basically was up against venom/raider swarm with 3 planes and 3 ravagers. He started, took out 3 kmk. I teleported shooty squad behind him and got charge wiping one raider. This led to funny situation with elves between 2 mobs and all eldar vehicles ran away. Very dark eldar and elves left behind went "oh gak"

Due to position error he got one da jump and the first jump opened hole where he got other 2 weirdboy.

After this he systematically blew my army.all i could do was shoot. Thanks gw for the disallow assaults up faq. On his 4th i had maybe 60 models left and we called it there.

Btw. Only 1 kmk and 1 weirdboy totally unpainted. Rest passes as fully painted

Clearly Blood Axes are just very very fast crawlers- that's why they get +1 cover. Because of this ability to crawl along the ground, they can rush straight at the enemy without getting shot at.

Back at home so bit more thinking about the game. For starters I got screwed straight from the get-go as I had forgotten my dice box. Now that wasn't too bad(loan dice + dice app) but it also had tactical objrective cards. We put in 6 objective scenario but without progressive scoring I was screwed. Though I likely would have been floored anyway so didn't matter.

Secondly I got screwed by terrain big time and opponent regretted afterwards for asking to follow the FAQ. That basically meant he could camp at the top of ruins and I couldn't touch. He actually toward end moved voluntarily out exposing himself a bit but that was too late as I was blown to bits right away.

I also came into realization this was about max I can really fit and that was on this easy deployment zone. Any more and I literally could not FIT entire army. So simply more bodies wouldn't have helped. Part of army would be dead before T1! As such even if boyz would cost 4 pts per model it wouldn't have helped much...

This leads to notice that if I were to tailor make list vs DE GROTS would be perfect. Half the cost, all that poison weapon pile is actually same vs grots as boyz. Wound on 4+. So flooding board with grots rather than orks would give same survivability for less points. Basically I could have saved 180 boyz into 180 grots=520 pts(?). Albeit that's going into realm of list tailoring. But as I can't just flood the board with another 140 grots(which would albeit have made it hard even for him to floor my army by sheer numbers...) due to deployment limit I would need to spend that to something else. But what? Any vehicle would have been flat out wiped out right away.

Alas DE seems to be ATM perfect scissor to ork's paper. They have tons of shots so even if they don't benefit(and indeed are hurt vs grots) by their poison having 18 shots rerolling 1's to hit per boat plus other guns(like 3d6 wounding on 2+ etc) makes that even this anti-vehicle(my knight army would have been "oh gak") was wiping out 300 models without too much of an effort.

Hopefully codex brings in something really neat. And frankly it has to be SUPER neat or any board with decent amount of high places is going to be super hard anyway as they can fly very well concentrated pile of shooting anywhere easily.

But

tneva82 wrote:
Back at home so bit more thinking about the game. For starters I got screwed straight from the get-go as I had forgotten my dice box. Now that wasn't too bad(loan dice + dice app) but it also had tactical objrective cards. We put in 6 objective scenario but without progressive scoring I was screwed. Though I likely would have been floored anyway so didn't matter.

Secondly I got screwed by terrain big time and opponent regretted afterwards for asking to follow the FAQ. That basically meant he could camp at the top of ruins and I couldn't touch. He actually toward end moved voluntarily out exposing himself a bit but that was too late as I was blown to bits right away.

I also came into realization this was about max I can really fit and that was on this easy deployment zone. Any more and I literally could not FIT entire army. So simply more bodies wouldn't have helped. Part of army would be dead before T1! As such even if boyz would cost 4 pts per model it wouldn't have helped much...

This leads to notice that if I were to tailor make list vs DE GROTS would be perfect. Half the cost, all that poison weapon pile is actually same vs grots as boyz. Wound on 4+. So flooding board with grots rather than orks would give same survivability for less points. Basically I could have saved 180 boyz into 180 grots=520 pts(?). Albeit that's going into realm of list tailoring. But as I can't just flood the board with another 140 grots(which would albeit have made it hard even for him to floor my army by sheer numbers...) due to deployment limit I would need to spend that to something else. But what? Any vehicle would have been flat out wiped out right away.

Alas DE seems to be ATM perfect scissor to ork's paper. They have tons of shots so even if they don't benefit(and indeed are hurt vs grots) by their poison having 18 shots rerolling 1's to hit per boat plus other guns(like 3d6 wounding on 2+ etc) makes that even this anti-vehicle(my knight army would have been "oh gak") was wiping out 300 models without too much of an effort.

Hopefully codex brings in something really neat. And frankly it has to be SUPER neat or any board with decent amount of high places is going to be super hard anyway as they can fly very well concentrated pile of shooting anywhere easily.

But

To be fair, you spammed footslogging boys and nothing else. Pretty easy to counter. Get some speed in there

Cool army btw

Hopefully the Blood Axe thing applies to vehicles. The bog standard save (3+) for vehicles applied to trukks and battlewagons would be really nice (not too game changing, but every bit helps), and 2+ for dreads and 'nauts seems pretty good as well..

I intended to have a Blood Axe army from the start so even if it's bad I ain't switchin'!

Then again orks don't have anything but boyz and kmk's worth a damn. And what speed? Stormboyz? Get shot just as easily, stil' could only shoot pistols at most(thanks gw). Vehicles would have been blown up even easier. That de list was geared toward killing knights! Had i taken my knights i might have lost 2 right off the bat. And not talking about armigers...

I needea tough(tougher than knights per point) shooty vehicles able to blow -1 to hit vehicles. What ork vehicles fit?

And btw what speed did? I had lots of stuff within 12". Not that it did good. Only stuff real far were ravagers but frankly after turn 1(blow up kmk) those 9 dark lances were useless so killing them would have changed nothing and speed doesn'' save kmk's when he goes 1st(and no ork unit could have charged them t1 anyway.

Pretty much only speed that could have been any use would have been spamming stormboyz. Not 1, 2 or even 3 units but like 6 maxed out. But price of models has kept my collection at 1 unit of 25 so far. But say 2 units. Well T1 he would have focus fired 1 unit out anyway. I can\t charge anything yet on T1. Then turn 2 he focus fires another squad or having got into rapid fire range maybe 2. Only things that by then weren't parked top of some nice platform I can't charge due to GW FAQ would be on his backline where the super fast skimmers were moving sideways so distance would have grown so I might not have been able to charge on T2 EITHER and even if I did odds were good it would have been against ravager with 3 dark lance. Not exactly game changing casualty. T3 another 1-2 squads bite the dust(and I'm here assuming he's not firing EVERYTHING toward stormboyz but maximizing total casualties so not firing over 12" shots with rapid fire range weapons toward stormboyz but instead regular boyz).

What I needed was quick way to kill those venoms. -1 to hit. One unit can get extra protection of being -2 to hit. Can't charge them(8th ed rules flat out made that impossible). Any suggestions? Seeing no charge don't think thus speed would have been answer. For that speed thus to matter it would have to be strong shooting with short range. Guess chinork's with burna boyz could have done something except that model is HUGE so would have been blown to bits by DE army that can take out 2 knights in a turn.

Personally I would have tried lootas and a few big trakks with super skorchas and a KFF big mek on bike

Big trakks would have had the firepower I needed and are on my to-get list but with them comes issue that 1 would have been blown up on T1(and even if I go first odds of reaching dark eldars that were like 28" away from me to start with would have been tough with 8" flamers...) so I would have needed max 3. 4 KMK and 3 of those and something might have survived T1 pounding(that was a lot of dark lances and disintegrators I faced!)

Lootas were also unit that would have been what I needed except priiiiice. 17 pts per model. And again to ensure they aren't more than more expensive bullet soak would have needed more than 1 unit.

What I really would have killed for is jump pack equipped character with enough killyness to kill up dark eldar vehicle in one go. Couple of those and dark eldars would have had big headache. Especially nice if I were to have ability to 3d6" charge them. Funnily enough Imperium has exactly this in the form of slamquinus. Orky equilavent(no need to even be quite as killy) would have been HUGE here.

Alas simply slapping jump pack to warlord wouldn't likely do it. Have to check odds but doubtful it would cause enough damage. Power klaws are bit wimpy in 8th ed :-/

(and btw incidentally I had no idea army I was facing. I had game prearranged but I literally only knew points and his phone number )

Edit: on flipside while i doubt the max 3 units would have changed a thing here(too much poison that hits on 3 rerolling 1 or is wounding on 2. When just ONE vehicle could wipe half a boy unit and he had like half a dozen...) but other games could be useful and just got 130-140 boyz cheaply. Get some 3rd party jump packs and for about 100e could have 2 more units of stormboyz. What clan? Will mean either max 2 boyz unit per clan for a while or some have 3 and others 1 but luckily i have 120 grots to fill battallions.

Oh I don't care for tailoring lists against opponents anyway. I just find boy spam super boring to play.

With only a few targets for their anti tank your cannons will never last. Super skorchas have a 24" range. Kustom force fields also negate a third of their fire power

tneva82 wrote:
Big trakks would have had the firepower I needed and are on my to-get list but with them comes issue that 1 would have been blown up on T1(and even if I go first odds of reaching dark eldars that were like 28" away from me to start with would have been tough with 8" flamers...) so I would have needed max 3. 4 KMK and 3 of those and something might have survived T1 pounding(that was a lot of dark lances and disintegrators I faced!)

On the topic of Big Trakk I'm planning on getting/custom building 3 anyway to basically run as proxied "Looted Wagons" in case they don't make an appearance in the Codex, and with how GW is going about getting rid of rules for models that don't exist seems like it's going to have to be the option.

My only concern is the conversion idea I have in mind they will end up being a little smaller than a Trukk (maybe same size), do you think that would be too much of an issue for my opponent to accuse for modeling for Advantage? Granted they're going to be much taller then a standard Big Trakk so I hope that would negate the issue somewhat.