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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I see Guardians staying the same cost, shields going up by 5ppm.

I see bikes going UP in cost, by 5-10ppm.

I see terminators going up. Maybe 5-10.

Everyone thinks we are getting all this cool stuff, an extra wound, keeping our 4++ and just walking away without giving anything in return? I mean, maybe, but I doubt it. Custodes are not seeing many costs go down I think.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I see Guardians staying the same cost, shields going up by 5ppm.

I see bikes going UP in cost, by 5-10ppm.

I see terminators going up. Maybe 5-10.

Everyone thinks we are getting all this cool stuff, an extra wound, keeping our 4++ and just walking away without giving anything in return? I mean, maybe, but I doubt it. Custodes are not seeing many costs go down I think.


We already have the 4++ so yes, I don't expect that to cost anything. Shields too. Only Bikes are getting the extra wound so there may be a slight revision there. Flat 2 damage probably won't amount to much in points differential because I don't think it amounted to much when the same thing happened to GK.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






Now we know that the Champion is 110 pts...

Does that seem awefully expensive to anyone else?
I just dont see why he (currently) needs to be more expensive than a shield captain.
He just.. offers nothing, beside character chopping, that I'd be looking for in Custodes RN.
The vehicle/Monsterkiller profile is weak and horde clearing hardly is a job for a single HQ model. The fights first is bad and does almost nothing...
Why again should I give up RR1s for a bit more melee power with 0 ranged and delivery problems that is even more expensive?

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Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

Seems pretty reasonable for a super killy beat stick who is also really survivable and likely has some rules we haven't seen as yet.

40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




330 points for three units that can barely do the job better than a like (points) number of Terminators, I don't see the value. I'd rather take Terminators that have at least some function other than get close, hit characters. Terminators can hold objectives, shoot really well, shut down shooting/charges, have really great strategem support.

This is a square peg for a game where we already have 6 square pegs, but we need round ones. It's literally pointless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 15:50:43


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Geez why are you guys so negative about this? 110p seems fine for all the stuff he does. He's quite killy and also has good survivability in melee.

AND we still haven't seen how he can potentially benefit from the remaining Katas, Shield Host rules and relics/warlord traits.

Once we've seen all this stuff you might have a reason to moan about the cost.
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






blade champ is a bit high at 110 if he only has a 3+ sv.

He is really killy however, and if you can give him a 3++ with a relic he's very durable. Also do remember he can get potentially insane with buffs. If he gets +1 attack from banner, +1 attack from Ka'Tah, and any other offensive buff from a WL trait he will be able to basically wipe out an entire unit of necron warriors by himself.

He definately didnt need to be more expensive than a shield captain (since he has no auras), which means we should expect our shield captains to go up in points as well.

While this is disapointing, it means they should also be gaining better profiles and we should expect +1 W and A for all our characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 17:22:43


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Been Around the Block




110 points seems pretty fair. T5, 1+ in melee, to-hit transhuman in melee, etc means that he'll mulch most dedicated melee units up close. He's pretty cleanly more dangerous than a similar marine character of the same cost.
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.


Whats your point? DW knights also have zero shooting, are slow as feth and can be seen coming from a mile away. We don't even know yet if the Blade Champion will hit as hard or harder in melee as the point equivalent number of DW knights, because that depends on the remaining shield hosts, katas and relics/warlord traits. What if there's a relic vault blade that completely pushes the blade champion over the edge, because it has amazing stats? What if there's an amazing walord trait/captain commander combination that gives him a "enemy fights last" ability?

All this moaning about points cost and units being unplayable garbage is pointless unless we see the whole codex.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.


This ignores half his strengths though. He's a character with character targeting and a 6" heroic. He makes combat decisions very complicated for the opponent and he can't be dealt with in shooting. Trying to use him as a bomb unit seems pretty silly but if it still makes sense to march dreads and shields up the board he doesn't look terrible there.
   
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Fezzik, theres basically noone who can dish out the amount of attacks the blade champ can.

I already pointed out he can one shot a 20 man warrior blob. Who else can do that?

6 base attacks, +1 for banner, +1 for Ka'tah=8
Doubled for hurricanas to 16.
Peerless warrior WL trait for new swings on a 6+
All seeing annihilator for exploding 6's.

On average he gets 3 6's which counter his 1's and give him 3 more attacks for 19 hits.
He then gets 14 wounds, and assuming Dread host gets +1 AP is killing 12-13 warriors by himself.

As long as you shot some dead before he goes in the unit is gone. And if 1 or 2 live they fail morale.

So basically he's up there with the likes of Mortarion and the succubus for killiness without using any strats.

Heres the kicker, you can take 3 of em, and they are far more durable than the succubus, and far cheaper than mortarion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 18:19:38


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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Fezzik, theres basically noone who can dish out the amount of attacks the blade champ can.

I already pointed out he can one shot a 20 man warrior blob. Who else can do that?

6 base attacks, +1 for banner, +1 for Ka'tah=8
Doubled for hurricanas to 16.
Peerless warrior WL trait for new swings on a 6+
All seeing annihilator for exploding 6's.

On average he gets 3 6's which counter his 1's and give him 3 more attacks for 19 hits.
He then gets 14 wounds, and assuming Dread host gets +1 AP is killing 12-13 warriors by himself.

As long as you shot some dead before he goes in the unit is gone. And if 1 or 2 live they fail morale.

So basically he's up there with the likes of Mortarion and the succubus for killiness without using any strats.

Heres the kicker, you can take 3 of em, and they are far more durable than the succubus, and far cheaper than mortarion.


This might be a dumb question, but I've been wondering this with another interaction before: doesn't the doubling of his attacks due to the hurricanis profile happen before he gets the extra attack from banner or Kata?
   
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Tiberias wrote:


This might be a dumb question, but I've been wondering this with another interaction before: doesn't the doubling of his attacks due to the hurricanis profile happen before he gets the extra attack from banner or Kata?

If you actually doubled attacks yes, but what actually happens is that you add 2 to the number of attacks and then each attack makes two hit rolls.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




novembermike wrote:
Tiberias wrote:


This might be a dumb question, but I've been wondering this with another interaction before: doesn't the doubling of his attacks due to the hurricanis profile happen before he gets the extra attack from banner or Kata?

If you actually doubled attacks yes, but what actually happens is that you add 2 to the number of attacks and then each attack makes two hit rolls.


Oh that's right! The wording doesn't actually say the attacks get doubled...I remembered that incorrectly.
Thanks for clearing that one up.
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




So if I am not allowed to "moan" about my feelings regarding this new release, does that work both ways? Can we stop fellating the rules team for the leaks we've been given? I mean, this is hardly on par with the levels of cheese 9th has been doling out to almost every other faction in the game.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Tiberias wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.


Whats your point? DW knights also have zero shooting, are slow as feth and can be seen coming from a mile away. We don't even know yet if the Blade Champion will hit as hard or harder in melee as the point equivalent number of DW knights, because that depends on the remaining shield hosts, katas and relics/warlord traits. What if there's a relic vault blade that completely pushes the blade champion over the edge, because it has amazing stats? What if there's an amazing walord trait/captain commander combination that gives him a "enemy fights last" ability?

All this moaning about points cost and units being unplayable garbage is pointless unless we see the whole codex.


Completely agree with this. It's more fair to compare a character to another character (such as the Emperor's Champion) than to an entirely different unit with multiple models anyway. It's foolish right now to proclaim the sky is falling on a particular unit or even Custodes as a whole when we only have bits and pieces and rumors to work with and we don't even have anything close to resembling a complete picture on what the codex is offering. I know complaining about GW is always in vogue but there's really no point in the constant pessimism right now when we're still lacking so much context. Plus, do we REALLY want to be as busted as some of the S tier factions out there? As an Ad Mech player, it's not fun being the (former) boogeyman, you don't want that kind of heat where people are constantly calling for your army to get nerfed into the ground, warranted or not. Honestly if we're firmly an A tier faction after all of this, I'll be more than happy.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if I am not allowed to "moan" about my feelings regarding this new release, does that work both ways? Can we stop fellating the rules team for the leaks we've been given? I mean, this is hardly on par with the levels of cheese 9th has been doling out to almost every other faction in the game.


Oh my god dude, I am so sick of this! I really tried to engage you in a positive way and tell you to cheer up about the codex and things like bikes, which I assume are one of your favourite units. But you insist seeing everything in the most negative way possible, it's exhausting.

Also what is this babble about fellating the rules team? Nobody ever said every new rule so far is gold spanking amazing, just to freaking wait until we have the bigger picture. Again you stuff like our rules are "not on paar with the levels of cheese in 9th". Leaving aside the fact, that being OP like dark eldar and admech is not good for the game...you can't know if our codex doesn't have the same level of cheese. You haven't seen all of it.

It potentially takes one good rule/stratagem/relic to make a unit viable. Is everybody suddenly forgetting Venatari?! Before the psychic awakening books nobody played them. Then we got the superior firing patterns stratagem and suddenly they were a staple in quite a lot of lists.
So now you're telling me bikes are dead and the rules stink when you haven't even seen the whole codex? This is ridiculous.

Seriously, get your head out of your ass and stop only thinking in black or white.
   
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My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea.TBH, new codex is far from optimistic....For the champion, I am argree with Fezzik. Foot champion is useless. From 7E, being a successful champion-like character has to have:
1. mobility: M>8 / fly / DS / charge after advance
2. many attacks and rerolls
3. good weapons: like master crafted hammer
4. moderate defense, 4++ is must
5. relatively cheap

so champion could not fly, has not DS built in, can not charge after advance, ON-FOOT

many attacks in 511 and barely any reroll(unless anti character route)

good weapons? kinda of...

defense is ok

cheap? not at all, a relic axe termi captain will serve any purpose except cleaning hordes better in 110+pts.

personal speaking champion is not completely useless, just too expensive. If in 85 or 95 pts, ill very happy to send him in with the first strike group(with termis?) and scramble backfield objectives with its 6' pile in and consolidate. but 110? nah.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/09 23:09:12


 
   
Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






superninja_834 wrote:
My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea.TBH, new codex is far from optimistic....For the champion, I am argree with Fezzik. Foot champion is useless. From 7E, being a successful champion-like character has to have:
1. mobility: M>8 / fly / DS / charge after advance
2. many attacks and rerolls
3. good weapons: like master crafted hammer
4. moderate defense, 4++ is must
5. relatively cheap

so champion could not fly, has not DS built in, can not charge after advance, ON-FOOT

many attacks in 511 and barely any reroll(unless anti character route)

good weapons? kinda of...

defense is ok

cheap? not at all, a relic axe termi captain will serve any purpose except cleaning hordes better in 110+pts.

personal speaking champion is not completely useless, just too expensive. If in 85 or 95 pts, ill very happy to send him in with the first strike group(with termis?) and scramble backfield objectives with its 6' pile in and consolidate. but 110? nah.


Just to be clear you are saying that you have seen the all the rules from the final version of the 9th ed custodes codex? And you know for a fact that Custodes are going to loose the army wide 4++?
   
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Blade champ is appropriate at 110 from what i can tell. Mobility is his only issue, as he will win against any non-monstrous character 1v1 and will even beat down many monsters. His ability to only be hit on a 4+ is actually quite strong, and if you can give him 3++ with the eagles eye there wont be many things that can kill him in one turn.

If you give him ArcaneGeneticAlchemy he ignores 92% of all attacks in the game (asuming eagles eye).

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110 pts seems pretty reasonable when that's around the same price as a normal Shield Captain. Plus we don't know if there are any relics/WLTs/strat combinations that take him over the top yet.

All in all, time will tell. I'd rather keep an open mind and wait until I see all the rules and how they'll interact with each other before making my own judgment calls on any part of our codex, premature doom and glooming doesn't serve any purpose. At the end of the day what really matters is real game experience and playing and testing all the new stuff, theorycrafting only goes so far and it's flawed theorycrafting when it's based on knee jerk reactions made from only part of the bigger picture.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 23:37:27


 
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?


This is kind of a silly comparison. The GK Captain is much, much worse in melee. He has a lot of other bonuses and it's a solid character but all of the melee pros you point to are just flat out worse. Hell, you even have the warding stave at AP-3 when it's AP-1 right? I don't play GK so I could be wrong on that but I really don't remember the nemesis warding staves being AP-3.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?


I mean, the Blade Champion also hits on 2's. He's a 4++ also. He gets +1 armor in melee so he's a 2+ or 1+ there. Flamers shouldn't be hitting CHARACTER keyword unless it's near the end or you're getting wrecked anyway (in which case, well, you're getting wrecked away). Champion is probably also 6W, 5W minimum. Should be 5A or 6A too. Champ has 3 attack modes which are equal or situational better to our GK.

I mean, seems pretty equal. GK gets some psychic toys. Blade Champ is better at fighting other characters or clearing a horde unit. Champion almost certainly wins a straight up duel.

Yeah, they're about equivalent and they cost the same. Not seeing the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
novembermike wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?


This is kind of a silly comparison. The GK Captain is much, much worse in melee. He has a lot of other bonuses and it's a solid character but all of the melee pros you point to are just flat out worse. Hell, you even have the warding stave at AP-3 when it's AP-1 right? I don't play GK so I could be wrong on that but I really don't remember the nemesis warding staves being AP-3.



I believe you're right that it's AP-1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nordsturmking wrote:
superninja_834 wrote:
My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea.TBH, new codex is far from optimistic....For the champion, I am argree with Fezzik. Foot champion is useless. From 7E, being a successful champion-like character has to have:
1. mobility: M>8 / fly / DS / charge after advance
2. many attacks and rerolls
3. good weapons: like master crafted hammer
4. moderate defense, 4++ is must
5. relatively cheap

so champion could not fly, has not DS built in, can not charge after advance, ON-FOOT

many attacks in 511 and barely any reroll(unless anti character route)

good weapons? kinda of...

defense is ok

cheap? not at all, a relic axe termi captain will serve any purpose except cleaning hordes better in 110+pts.

personal speaking champion is not completely useless, just too expensive. If in 85 or 95 pts, ill very happy to send him in with the first strike group(with termis?) and scramble backfield objectives with its 6' pile in and consolidate. but 110? nah.


Just to be clear you are saying that you have seen the all the rules from the final version of the 9th ed custodes codex? And you know for a fact that Custodes are going to loose the army wide 4++?


He previously said armywide 4++ is still there.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/10 00:22:43


 
   
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novembermike wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?


This is kind of a silly comparison. The GK Captain is much, much worse in melee. He has a lot of other bonuses and it's a solid character but all of the melee pros you point to are just flat out worse. Hell, you even have the warding stave at AP-3 when it's AP-1 right? I don't play GK so I could be wrong on that but I really don't remember the nemesis warding staves being AP-3.


Apologies, I mixed up S+3, and thought it was in the AP block. You are correct. S7 attacks, AP1, D2. I mean the Spear is S6 AP2 D2. But I thought S over AP would be more even.

In any event, I am trying to point out the pointlessness of this character's existence. It solves zero of our problems, and has no real advantage over any of our frankly BETTER, HQ options. As someone else said, a Terminator SC with an axe and the Eagle eye is better in almost every way.
   
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Whether he solves our problems is a completely different question than whether he's good for the points. I'd really need to look into how we'll be constructing armies to know what role he plays, it's entirely possible he just ends up being worse than the sister of silence character or something. He's still solid for the points though and does a job of being a beatstick character with some tricks.
   
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If I am being kind, he might act as a seriously dangerous D. Carnifex; unassuming single character, but he can get ugly very fast.

But my question is again, at the cost, and position, I don't see it being of much value. SCs in TErminator plate with axes do it better, and ar about the same cost. The grenade launcher is just too good, as is slayer of tyrants, and free FGLTC.

I need to see how the points shake out. If this is what they are calling 110 points I'm scared to think what Trajann might end up costing.

I would like him a LOT more in the Heavy slot or Elite.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If I am being kind, he might act as a seriously dangerous D. Carnifex; unassuming single character, but he can get ugly very fast.

But my question is again, at the cost, and position, I don't see it being of much value. SCs in TErminator plate with axes do it better, and ar about the same cost. The grenade launcher is just too good, as is slayer of tyrants, and free FGLTC.

I need to see how the points shake out. If this is what they are calling 110 points I'm scared to think what Trajann might end up costing.

I would like him a LOT more in the Heavy slot or Elite.


Dude, you literally don't even know his statline, not to mention all the abilities, relics, wlts, etc. What are you even talking about?
   
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Italy

I would have preferred our new killy HQ be the same price as a Shield Captain but I'm still interested in trying him out.

Have they announced when he'll be sold separately?
   
 
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