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2014/11/11 13:33:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Probably played it to the objectives would be my guess. The ad lance can't be everywhere at once. With that much MSU he could just throw down a Lictor a turn in front of them and possibly herd them where he wants them to go, or slow them down enough it wouldn't matter what they did anyway.
Wow I'm sorry - that's what you get when you post when you're not fully awake apparently. Because you separated them into different chunks my brain farted. I usually do that for each FOC slot win I list build.
Anyhow, no it's not unbound. It just has few Objective: Secured units. And yes, I was referring to the Mucolid's inability to contest or score objectives. I still think that my other points are valid though
2014/11/11 15:02:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
2014/11/11 15:21:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
SHUPPET wrote: So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.
I was mainly worried that this psychic power was feast or famine. To illustrate that I included the percent when it does nothing. I've seen people that do outcome distribution charts, but I don't know how to do that quickly, so I just do a little table of summary data.
So in that case, 63% of the time it will fail to wound. However the remaining 37% it will wound, and generally it will wound significantly (Average 3.8 wounds in that top 37%). When you average it out over all possible outcomes the average is just 1.41 wounds.
To try to sum it up a bit, while the mean is 1.41 wounds, there is an enormous variance of outcomes with the median outcome being 0 wounds. It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
No that is nothing like Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player who ever lived and averaged 83 strikeouts a year while walking over 130 times a year. His career batting average is a .342 with an on base + slugging of 1.164.
If it was like Babe Ruth then it would kill a knight in one round of shooting something like 65% of the time with the other times almost glancing it out and failing to get 1 hull point off about 6% of the time.
I have no idea what it is statistically similar to but it is not Babe Ruth.
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
2014/11/11 15:27:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
felixcat wrote: I'm quite curious how OrdoSean managed to take out an Admantine Lance formation - he had 2 Flyrants with grubs and some rending Lictors ... no tentaclids or other support - well mawlocs ... kudos to OrdSean but it makes me wonder.
I would say he just MSUed it. With that many small units, he had Knights wasting an entire assault on single Lictors. As long as he kept good spacing, he should have been ok.
Also re: Wave Serpents. Lictors can kill a serpent in assault. A wave serpent can only kill one lictor a turn. So I imagine he just showed up and popped the serpents, and the serpent player didn't have enough shooting to knock down all of his MSU to do it.
I'm eager to hear from him, but after reviewing the mission packet, I'm sure he built his army for this tourney. The basically did away with kill points except as an option for a one point secondary. MSU was the way to win.
Those missions were quite a different beast from NOVA (used a previous version of the same mission packet). I don't know how many of you playtested the NOVA missions, but they were anything but balanced. They always gave you choices for the primary, and secondary, but in pretty much every case the army that was going to do well in option A of the primary was going to do just as well in option B. Also some of the secondaries were ridiculously easy to game, some armies could score all 3 on turn 1. Add to that the paperwork requirement, and they were some of the least favorite missions I have ever played. These missions are a giant improvement over those, and actually look like fun to play. Congrats to Neil on his revision of the mission packet. It really has come a long way. I hope that they continue to improve it, and fix the exploits available to MSU armies, and go a little further towards diversifying the primary choices so that different armies have more ways to win.
2014/11/11 15:30:31
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
tag8833 wrote: It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
No that is nothing like Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player who ever lived and averaged 83 strikeouts a year while walking over 130 times a year. His career batting average is a .342 with an on base + slugging of 1.164.
If it was like Babe Ruth then it would kill a knight in one round of shooting something like 65% of the time with the other times almost glancing it out and failing to get 1 hull point off about 6% of the time.
I have no idea what it is statistically similar to but it is not Babe Ruth.
Yep, you caught me. I'm a nerd that knows nothing about baseball. I based the comparison on a joke I once heard. So pick your own metaphor. Suffice to say, when it hits, it hits hard. But most of the time it misses.
2014/11/11 15:43:11
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
What he said.
The game isn't just about clubbing your opponent. It's about having fun....for both parties.
If max Flyrants isn't any fun, what is the max you could field and still feel "clean"? Taking multiple detachments and Mucolids you could still fit seven in a list.
Wilson wrote: What's this about being able to put GMC's in pods? Is that legit or against the rules?
I want a Heirodule in a pod!
Why do you want one? You lose its guns for a turn and it moves fast enough as is. Plus it feels like a cheesy and non-thematic loophole at best. Even though it is RAW, so is having your Biovore blasts hit all levels of a ruin in a cylinder of doom. Not how I prefer to play the game
2014/11/11 16:14:45
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I really like the new Neurothrope rules. I'm glad they're cheap and that broods can be taken in larger numbers. Purely because it's how many I'll have when I get the kit, I'm thinking of running 4 with a Neuro upgrade, though I'm not sure whether to pod them or not. I guess it depends on how much Synapse I have throughout the rest of my list.
How does this list sound, bearing in mind I don't want to be too competitive, nor let my Hormagaunts sit on the shelf, unused (I'd drop them for more Devilgaunts in a pod if need be, or perhaps a Mawloc)
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Your right about the fifth Tyrannocycte. When I was making the list I was considering to get more venomtropes or get the swarmlord for an extra +1 reserve bonus instead of the bastion.
Against a droppod list it all depends on who got the first turn and I can still use the 40 guants to keep those droppods 12 inch away from my bastion and flying hives. If my/this army gets the first turn then those "second wave" droppods are having a hard time finding a decent position to drop. But yes, it can really hurt but that also goes the other way around.
There is still a lot of decent firepower in this list but Tyranids always struggle with (heavy) armor. With two zoanthrope units it possible to get two neurothropes and I think that their psychic power bring sum nice anti-psyker/ Monsterous creature ability in combination with a few (possible "free") warp lance shots. Dont forget, the also got that extra psychic power. I was considering hive guard but I really like those skimmers to "jinx" to make sure the don't die because of warp lance shots.
4 single mucolite spores can really be annoying, because you have to have 4 units shooting them down and you waste a lot of shots against 15point models, but if the dont the can possibly explode with a S8 ap3 large blast that ignores cover.
To answer your question "what do you expect to happen if you get their" I would like to drop it in their face and even when the get an enormous beating I like to claim victory by letting those pods drift towards objectives and win the day. Will this work all the time? no.. But i do believe it got potential and stil a lot of damage output.
2014/11/11 16:22:20
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Sinful Hero wrote: If max Flyrants isn't any fun, what is the max you could field and still feel "clean"? Taking multiple detachments and Mucolids you could still fit seven in a list.
Having played with 4 on a couple occasions (see the bat rep a couple pages back) I don't think I would do more than 3. Four is pretty ridiculous and a lot of armies simply aren't equipped to deal with them. That's not fun for your opponent. In much the same way, I stopped playing Skyblight regularly because it was way too many FMC for my group to deal with. That's not to say that it's a cheesy list - it's the definition of counter-meta. Although Daemons might have people re-thinking that a bit.
That being said, when I played against the white scars bike list with four Flyrants, we both had a blast and he wants a re-match to see if he can optimize his list against a difficult matchup. So in all likelihood, I'll be playing that same list again this week. But it's definitely more of a "use by request" lost for me rather than a TAC list that I would use against anyone without warning. Ironically it is a pretty good TAC list also I think
2014/11/11 16:28:28
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Wilson wrote: What's this about being able to put GMC's in pods? Is that legit or against the rules?
I want a Heirodule in a pod!
Why do you want one? You lose its guns for a turn and it moves fast enough as is. Plus it feels like a cheesy and non-thematic loophole at best. Even though it is RAW, so is having your Biovore blasts hit all levels of a ruin in a cylinder of doom. Not how I prefer to play the game
Because Im reckless and dangerous...
Plus I like the idea of a Heirodule literally wearing a tyranocyte and asking " does it fit?" " oh I'm so fat, aren't i. :["
"Look at my fat thighs."
"I'm just a big fat heirodule."
2014/11/11 16:29:42
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
What he said.
The game isn't just about clubbing your opponent. It's about having fun....for both parties.
I mean think about it an Eldar player could bring 5 wraithgknights and 6 wave serpents...oh wait...never mind.
I am not crying about Eldar I just laughed when I thought about that as an unbound list and realized it is perfectly legal.
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
2014/11/11 16:37:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
What he said.
The game isn't just about clubbing your opponent. It's about having fun....for both parties.
I mean think about it an Eldar player could bring 5 wraithgknights and 6 wave serpents...oh wait...never mind.
I am not crying about Eldar I just laughed when I thought about that as an unbound list and realized it is perfectly legal.
Sure it's legal but a large quantity of people don't play unbound because they prefere structured play. Primarily because those many players use tournement rules and restrictions that they are familiar with.
Take my own local gaming group for example; we only play with 1 cad and allies and don't allow double cad, unbound or self allies.
2014/11/11 16:41:45
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Your right about the fifth Tyrannocycte. When I was making the list I was considering to get more venomtropes or get the swarmlord for an extra +1 reserve bonus instead of the bastion.
Against a droppod list it all depends on who got the first turn and I can still use the 40 guants to keep those droppods 12 inch away from my bastion and flying hives. If my/this army gets the first turn then those "second wave" droppods are having a hard time finding a decent position to drop. But yes, it can really hurt but that also goes the other way around.
There is still a lot of decent firepower in this list but Tyranids always struggle with (heavy) armor. With two zoanthrope units it possible to get two neurothropes and I think that their psychic power bring sum nice anti-psyker/ Monsterous creature ability in combination with a few (possible "free") warp lance shots. Dont forget, the also got that extra psychic power. I was considering hive guard but I really like those skimmers to "jinx" to make sure the don't die because of warp lance shots.
4 single mucolite spores can really be annoying, because you have to have 4 units shooting them down and you waste a lot of shots against 15point models, but if the dont the can possibly explode with a S8 ap3 large blast that ignores cover.
To answer your question "what do you expect to happen if you get their" I would like to drop it in their face and even when the get an enormous beating I like to claim victory by letting those pods drift towards objectives and win the day. Will this work all the time? no.. But i do believe it got potential and stil a lot of damage output.
What you're basically advocating is what jy2 calls "positional dominance", meaning you'll win an objectives game if you control the movement phase. This is true. However, I would be careful before I put all my anti-tank eggs in the Zoanthrope's basket. They can be tied up in combat quite easily and even if you cast with 5 dice, you have an 81% chance of successfully manifesting the power. Your opponent then has a 25% chance to deny on 6 dice (rolling a 3 for the d6 and getting 3 natively). That's going to mean that you fail to hit with that power 4/10 times. Not my idea of a reliable alpha strike. I might grab a Dakkafex, who can pump a ton of shots into a tank's rear armor, then assault the next turn and reliably kill whatever tank he hits. You're also going to struggle against high toughness creatures (Eldar wraithknights, talos pain engines, etc) possibly worth bringing some poison troops? Basically your zoans have a huge amount of pressure to do a lot of work and if they don't, your army is going to have a tough time in certain matchups
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/11 16:43:09
2014/11/11 17:05:47
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I think that it is too much potatoes (infiltrating units) and not enough meat (actual, offensive units). Good luck trying to infiltrate all those units in any type of deployment that makes sense.
Hey Sean,
If you read this, we'd love to hear about your matchups at the 11th Company GT. Congrats, man!
This seriously warms my heart, I just purchased two Brool Lords. And I have been thinking that Stealers can return to the table (because of MTO, too many other targets for the Stealers to get focused on )
SHUPPET wrote: So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.
I was mainly worried that this psychic power was feast or famine. To illustrate that I included the percent when it does nothing. I've seen people that do outcome distribution charts, but I don't know how to do that quickly, so I just do a little table of summary data.
So in that case, 63% of the time it will fail to wound. However the remaining 37% it will wound, and generally it will wound significantly (Average 3.8 wounds in that top 37%). When you average it out over all possible outcomes the average is just 1.41 wounds.
To try to sum it up a bit, while the mean is 1.41 wounds, there is an enormous variance of outcomes with the median outcome being 0 wounds. It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
No that is nothing like Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player who ever lived and averaged 83 strikeouts a year while walking over 130 times a year. His career batting average is a .342 with an on base + slugging of 1.164.
If it was like Babe Ruth then it would kill a knight in one round of shooting something like 65% of the time with the other times almost glancing it out and failing to get 1 hull point off about 6% of the time.
I have no idea what it is statistically similar to but it is not Babe Ruth.
Reggie? (Mr. October, hit lots of homeruns, struck out like crazy. Had his own candy bar...just like the Babe )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote: If Skyblight is the only way of getting the 3rd Flyrant into your list, is it worth it, just for that?
Not to me. But that is style as much as substance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: If max Flyrants isn't any fun, what is the max you could field and still feel "clean"? Taking multiple detachments and Mucolids you could still fit seven in a list.
I have no objections to multiple CAD so I guess four, though I suspect the real answer is 3.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Shadow wrote: I really like the new Neurothrope rules. I'm glad they're cheap and that broods can be taken in larger numbers. Purely because it's how many I'll have when I get the kit, I'm thinking of running 4 with a Neuro upgrade, though I'm not sure whether to pod them or not. I guess it depends on how much Synapse I have throughout the rest of my list.
How does this list sound, bearing in mind I don't want to be too competitive, nor let my Hormagaunts sit on the shelf, unused (I'd drop them for more Devilgaunts in a pod if need be, or perhaps a Mawloc)
It doesn't look "bad", but puta Thorax Hive on the Tervigon. Also I would Outflank the Tervign, so I am putting Synapse into the backfield. What is the second Pod for? The Zoey+ Brood? (that would put Synapse into the backfield) In that case, two Broods of Devilgaunts should do just fine back there.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/11 17:31:59
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/11 18:01:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I have only played 'Nids since the new Codex came out, so I built my collection and started playing well later than the supposed "Golden Age". That means I haven't felt the particular weaknesses of the Codex, having never lived in an age of Drop-Pod (Mycetic Spores), etc...
That all said, I began my love affair with 'Nids by buying Space Hulk as a younger man, and the first I owned/painted were a set of Space Hulk 3rd Ed Stealers/Broodlord.
To date, they have been the only "turds" I own in terms of actually playing 40k as 'Nids.
Is the Tyrannocyst Spore-thing a way to rehabilitate these guys? I would LOVE for Genestealers to be awesome, but is loading a pod to the gills with these guys and a Broodlord a decent idea, or are they just gonna get shot to ribbons before they can finally assault?
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2014/11/11 18:16:29
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
There are certainly those who feel like Tyrrannocytes have reinvigorated genestealers. I'm not seeing it. They need support, so putting them in a Tyrannocyte isn't the way to go. However, one way in which they have gotten better is if you plan to outflank them. You can do so on the same turn that you bring in other threats via a Tyrannocyte. This may keep them from being so much of a focus of enemy fire on the turn they arrive.
I doubt we will see them in many top tier lists (I say with a great sense of Irony, because they were in the list that just won a GT). But outflanking them doesn't have to be a complete waste of points any more.
(more)
(building)
(less)
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
And I have been thinking that Stealers can return to the table (because of MTO, too many other targets for the Stealers to get focused on 
)
)
Also I would Outflank the Tervign, so I am putting Synapse into the backfield. 
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)