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I've read Faith ( thanks for the freebie ) and the back story in the rules, and I just can't get on board with it.
To sum up: A catastrophic event has occurred and mankind is basically split between people that work for soulless corporations and a group that thinks they've found how to evolve to a new plane of existence. Everyone is going to die. Yet, for some reason, they are fighting each other.
Given that the aims of both groups aren't really in juxtaposition of each other, I'm just not seeing the reason for them to fight. To be completely honest, if I'm a Corp CEO then I'd probably work directly with the religious nuts to help keep the populace of the planets near the Edge in line. That would be far more cost effective than to deal with insurrection and would eliminate a huge need to transport people off those planets.
I think a better path would be for the corporations to be trying to build something in order outlive the maelstrom. Basically some kind of tech that would either stop the maelstrom entirely or allow mankind to hop over it and start over once it's past. The big question then would be: do you trust the corporations to take you with them or do you think that Ascension is a better path? The religious nuts would obviously want to stop that and the Corps would need resources to build whatever it is.
Basically, I think the premise needs a bit of work as the reasons for fighting seem to be a bit too contrived and not real world.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/19 19:13:13
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"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
Basically, I think the premise needs a bit of work as the reasons for fighting seem to be a bit too contrived and not real world.
Corporate America is still angry some religious extremists blew up their trade center 15 years ago. I don't see your point about it not being "real world" enough.
Real world politics aside...
To sum up: A catastrophic event has occurred and mankind is basically split between people that work for soulless corporations and a group that thinks they've found how to evolve to a new plane of existence. Everyone is going to die. Yet, for some reason, they are fighting each other.
The Epirian foundation is not a soulless corporation. It's a loose conglomerate of terraforming agencies working in tandem to evacuate citizens from frontier worlds as a catastrophic storm approaches. Which sounds about like the aid foundations that help evacuate storm victims in SE Asia today. You're right that religion does not inherently fight this cause, in fact, the two have similar goals at times, and on some worlds the two factions cooperate. But the fact that they want the same thing, people to add to the cause, is what causes friction. Add to that both organizations have their shadowy underhanded dealings, one is overtly greedy, vain, materialistic and the other hands out free drugs and preaches literal nihilism (giving up your body to the maelstrom) and you have a recipe for mistrust and xenophobia.
Basically, I think the premise needs a bit of work as the reasons for fighting seem to be a bit too contrived and not real world.
The problem is that the story is too human. This isn't a dynamic battle between good and evil. It's a bunch of people, watching the apocalypse draw ever closer, struggling to survive, and stepping on each others' toes in the process.
The big question then would be: do you trust the corporations to take you with them or do you think that Ascension is a better path? The religious nuts would obviously want to stop that and the Corps would need resources to build whatever it is.
This, in essence, is the question. Do you trust the organization to evacuate you and your family that is also trying to make a profit off your backs? Or do you put your life in the hands of the priests of cybel?
allow mankind to hop over it and start over once it's past
Also, by the way, this project you described you're trying to travel thousands of lightyears in a galaxy in a ship that has no traditional FTL capability. Such technology was never developed due to the existence of much faster cybel networks. That's like trying to bunny hop over Hurricane Katrina on a mountain bike.
Basically some kind of tech that would either stop the maelstrom entirely
maybe this only makes sense to me being from Oklahoma, but you don't "stop" a storm. You go underground and wait it out. But considering this storm EATS planets, I wouldn't try hiding in a tornado shelter.
I've read Faith ( thanks for the freebie ) and the back story in the rules, and I just can't get on board with it.
I'm sorry you can't get on board with it but it makes perfect sense to me. Despite the elements of fantasy included to make it interesting and not some kind of future-history lesson.
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
To sum up: A catastrophic event has occurred and mankind is basically split between people that work for soulless corporations and a group that thinks they've found how to evolve to a new plane of existence.
Accuracy of this summation aside, there are other factions. This are just the two in the starter set, so are the two being focused on right now.
I think a better path would be for the corporations to be trying to build something in order outlive the maelstrom. Basically some kind of tech that would either stop the maelstrom entirely or allow mankind to hop over it and start over once it's past.
I think it would be a given that there would be work going on to find ways to stop the Maelstrom. But that doesn't help the people on the Edge now.
As for 'hopping over' it and starting over.... With what?
So far as anyone can determine, the Maelstrom destroys everything it touches. So there's nothing on the other side of it to start over with. Chances are that if anyone does find a way through the stormfront, all they're going to find on the other side is either more storm, or empty space.
But the fact that they want the same thing, people to add to the cause, is what causes friction. Add to that both organizations have their shadowy underhanded dealings, one is overtly greedy, vain, materialistic and the other hands out free drugs and preaches literal nihilism (giving up your body to the maelstrom) and you have a recipe for mistrust and xenophobia.
Huh? Those are not at odds with each other.
I'm the CEO of a major corporation and all I want is for the people that work for me to continue working and bringing in the moolah. This isn't a "cause" per se; it's a job. Now, these people are spooked because in let's say 20 years time their planet and absolutely everything they've built will be destroyed.
That's not exactly an uplifting situation. As a matter of fact, that situation is likely to lead to a much higher incidence of riots, looting, general malaise of the population, huge decline in births, and a complete and utter break down of society.
So, how do I motivate these people? After all, I want the precious metals ( or whatever ) of the planet. Oh, I know, I could offer up passage off world for anyone that can earn the right. Sounds good until refugee ships from another planet land and end up telling stories about how there were only so many slots available and a lot of people were left behind and, oh, can you spare a biscuit, I haven't eaten today? Poof, everything's undone and now we're back to shooting rioters.
Any halfway decent religious person could show up and say "listen, we'll put the population back to work. All you have to do is let us have our church services on Sunday in which we will distribute a "hit" on our naCybel pipe that'll help calm them down. We'll even take some of the people off your hands when you exit this planet and make anyone you can't take believe that staying behind is the best thing ever. Do you mind making attendance mandatory?"
Boom, deal struck, crisis averted. No need for shooting anyone except those that refuse to go to Sunday school. The Karists get to tell everyone how to survive the end of the world while the conglomerates get to take the planet's resources without constantly dealing with a messy humanity.
Given this scenario, under what condition would the Epirians and Karists fight? From the Epirian perspective - fighting causes lost profits, dead people and way too much paperwork to fill out. From a Karist perspective - fighting means their warriors won't have a chance to Ascend because they died before the maelstrom showed up. Big win for both sides if you ask me.
Book spoiler follows:
Spoiler:
In Faith, there appears to be zero reason for the Karists to show up clandestinely - undocumented refugees show up on the planet all the time, a few more would certainly have gone completely unnoticed. By showing up the way they did, they increased mission risk for no gain. There's also zero reason for the police and Karists to engage in a fight - all the Karists had to do was get an assembly permit and not show up with guns. Heck, if they hadn't shown up and killed the Sheriff's friend then the Sheriff wouldn't have notified the city security forces and they wouldn't have been keeping an eye out for religious nuts using cybel energy. Thinking more about this, when the Sheriff came across them in the desert, all they had to do was say "Hi" and the Sheriff would have been on his way not thinking they were anything BUT another group of refugees. After all, so far absolutely no one appears to have even heard of them before.
Moving on - there wasn't a reason for the main character to spend months infiltrating the facility because the manager was *already* on the Karist side. Which means, if you walk that back a bit, there was no reason for the main character to need to acquire work passes ( the manager could have easily brought in anyone he wanted) . Even then, they only used 1 of the 3 ( again unnecessary ). Which means it was completely unnecessary to kill those kid's parents. All of which should have been known before the Karists even landed on the planet because the leaders apparently already knew those areas had been infiltrated.
As near as I can tell, the "big" issue is that the Karists shoot first without provocation, reason, necessity or even a modicum of forethought.
Then there's the Sheriff's wife who can cobble a space ship together out of spare parts in someone's junk yard. I can't for a minute believe that, with this skill, they'd stick around trying to raise children on a dying world if they could escape the whole thing and move to relative safety. Especially if they knew that space travel risk increased the closer the maelstrom was to them. His "motivation" for being a Sheriff was to earn passage off world - yet another thing that was apparently not needed. Of course, I wouldn't exactly say the Sheriff was well endowed in the intelligence department - storming into a suspected den of cybel hoarders, threatening them, then leaving wasn't exactly what one would call a "bright" idea. Rats have a tendency to fade away in the dark when you aren't looking.
I'm really hoping I'm missing something here.
This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 00:00:02
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"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
clively wrote: Any halfway decent religious person could show up and say "listen, we'll put the population back to work. All you have to do is let us have our church services on Sunday in which we will distribute a "hit" on our naCybel pipe that'll help calm them down. We'll even take some of the people off your hands when you exit this planet and make anyone you can't take believe that staying behind is the best thing ever. Do you mind making attendance mandatory?"
Because if there is one thing that religeous fanatics excel at, it's negotiation and compromise...
The Karists get to tell everyone how to survive the end of the world while and the conglomerates get to take the planet's resources without worrying about riots..
Except the Karists also need those same resources to continue their own mission.
Because if there is one thing that religeous fanatics excel at, it's negotiation and compromise...
The Catholics did pretty well for quite a long time using this path... Iran also seems to have figured out how it works.
If we need an example of something a bit less controversial then we could just look at the various religious organizations that exist to help impoverished people in various countries. Looking at the USA in particular, most churches have community outreach programs with soup kitchens and, in some cases, provide housing and education services which double as proselytizing factories.
Except the Karists also need those same resources to continue their own mission.
Ah, now here's a kernel of something that might be workable. I do recall in the book that they wanted to siphon off some amount of cybel energy for themselves. However, I took that to mean to power the weapons and what not. That said, cybel appears to be something they can buy, even in large quantities, so I'm not sure why they need to fight for it. Which leaves a question: what "resources" could they possibly need?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 00:04:53
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"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
One thing I think you're missing is that people aren't necessarily doomed to die. There's the constant pressure of the Maelstrom that is pushing people outward, and so they keep fleeing, and this is what is driving most people, Karists excepted. The resources of planets are necessary to keep moving people forward as ships wear out, food is consumed, and energy used.
It is this battle for resources that puts different groups at odds. The Karists do have a different take on things, but even they don't all want to ascend right away, and need these same resources to continue their mission.
Epirians and Karists might theoretically work together in some situations and as you outline, there is certainly scope for this to happen (by design). Both have goals which are different enough that there would be no shortage of flashpoints to trigger things into full scale warfare though. Generally both factions would try to avoid warfare as much as possible due to how expensive it is in lives and resources. There are a lot of reasons why the Karists and Epirians would come to blows repeatedly:
If your world, which you knew was doomed, and from which you were working hard for escape to an outer world, suddenly brought in a large philosophical organisation which was telling you it is better to stay and die, a massive percentage of the population would resist, leading to bloodshed. Building demand up from grassroots as the Karists do is dramatically more effective than a top down manoeuvre. Grassroots is inherently unpredictable and hard to control though, and while many times it does not end in violence, there are plenty (like Zycanthus) where it does.
This is not the start of the Maelstrom - it has been expanding for a millennia, with generations of people fleeing outwards. Any world in our universe in the present day setting will be full of stellargees from older worlds (and their descendants) who will remember the actions of the Epirians and Karists, or will have heard of them from others in their communities or families. It would be a very rare thing for the Karists to find a world that is heavily receptive to their message, and a very rare thing for the Epirians to get the full trust of their population when attempting to evacuate. There is constant disorder but at the same time, there is no shortage of evacuation options until the Maelstrom starts getting closer and closer. Our Transit audiobook covers this nicely.
There are countless experts on every world who have managed to stay ahead of the Maelstrom, from military to scientist, and everything in between. All of which would be heavily beneficial to any faction. These individuals are often triggers for skirmishes which evolve into full scale warfare (the VIP mission in the box set deals with this as well). The Karists want as many people to ascend as possible, but they need to be able to spread their message and need a massive galactic infrastructure to do so which means a lot of experts and resources.
As mentioned by others, the Epirians are not going to be willing to let their resources get taken by the Karists, and the Karists need a constant stream of supplies and people to spread their message. The Epirians would often leave a world for dead if it had nothing they wanted and had evacuated everyone they could, but before that state is reached there would be a massive conflict of interest. The Karists want to get in before that happens so that they can spread their message to more people on the planet as well as securing all the resources that they can.
In all case, the clock is ticking as the Maelstrom bares down, forcing snap decisions and putting everything in to a pressure cooker.
The Remnant are attempting to outrun the Maelstrom into deep space, the Epirians are taking things one step at a time and are just trying to constantly keep ahead of it, lacking the central control to create a unified effort to head for deep space.
Both the Epirians and Karists are made up of many smaller, independent groups with their own specific motivations and doctrines as well, so there is scope for anything. We've explored the Forthrast syndicate and just one offshoot of the 14 for the Karists so far, but we've got a whole universe to play in and build still.
With regards to your book comments, it has been 2 years since I've read it so might be a bit rusty, but:
Spoiler:
In Faith, there appears to be zero reason for the Karists to show up clandestinely - undocumented refugees show up on the planet all the time, a few more would certainly have gone completely unnoticed. By showing up the way they did, they increased mission risk for no gain. There's also zero reason for the police and Karists to engage in a fight - all the Karists had to do was get an assembly permit and not show up with guns. Heck, if they hadn't shown up and killed the Sheriff's friend then the Sheriff wouldn't have notified the city security forces and they wouldn't have been keeping an eye out for religious nuts using cybel energy. Thinking more about this, when the Sheriff came across them in the desert, all they had to do was say "Hi" and the Sheriff would have been on his way not thinking they were anything BUT another group of refugees. After all, so far absolutely no one appears to have even heard of them before.
It is not a small force, it is a full invasion force. Karists have shown up as undocumented refugees well before this, as hinted at by the mention of the shadow walkers and others who have been there a while before Zafah. There's also a mention of all ships being tracked as they head to the surface, which would include scanning, customs, passenger manifests, etc. Additionally, this is standard Karist invasion doctrine because it is the least risky option for them.
Moving on - there wasn't a reason for the main character to spend months infiltrating the facility because the manager was *already* on the Karist side. Which means, if you walk that back a bit, there was no reason for the main character to need to acquire work passes ( the manager could have easily brought in anyone he wanted) . Even then, they only used 1 of the 3 ( again unnecessary ). Which means it was completely unnecessary to kill those kid's parents. All of which should have been known before the Karists even landed on the planet because the leaders apparently already knew those areas had been infiltrated.
Work is assigned by the central authority rather than at the manager level because there are dramatically more people than jobs and cronyism would be massive otherwise. It was indeed basically unnecessary to kill the kids parents which is there to show that they make mistakes, there are unintended consequences, and they have to adapt to the situation. It also showed the difference between the more aggressive tarkar and the more passive zafah (and their respective elements in the Enclave)
As near as I can tell, the "big" issue is that the Karists shoot first without provocation, reason, necessity or even a modicum of forethought.
The military aspect of them was desperate to move things along as quickly as possible, given the often mentioned disaster they had when doing things the peaceful way recently before. This meant that those commanders were trying to stir up trouble to advance their internal agenda. The Karists are not monolithic, they are made up of people with differing motivations just like any other massive organisation.
Then there's the Sheriff's wife who can cobble a space ship together out of spare parts in someone's junk yard. I can't for a minute believe that, with this skill, they'd stick around trying to raise children on a dying world if they could escape the whole thing and move to relative safety. Especially if they knew that space travel risk increased the closer the maelstrom was to them. His "motivation" for being a Sheriff was to earn passage off world - yet another thing that was apparently not needed. Of course, I wouldn't exactly say the Sheriff was well endowed in the intelligence department - storming into a suspected den of cybel hoarders, threatening them, then leaving wasn't exactly what one would call a "bright" idea. Rats have a tendency to fade away in the dark when you aren't looking.
They are relatively old, with a lifetime of high risk adventure behind them - settled on Zycanthus to live out their days, but the Maelstrom advanced through a nebula much faster than expected, forcing their hand and making them lose their life's savings. Space ships are relatively simple, modular constructs in our universe as people have been building them to flee for a millennia, so it is more about getting the components than the technical aspects that is the limiting factor. There is a big difference between making it into space, and spending the weeks, months or years travelling to another planet. She is working on a tiny shuttle that would ferry them to a bigger ship above, but they would still need to have secured passage on that ship - you can guarantee that it would be very full. Wynn is no genius but he is lucky, aggressive and has seen it all so knows how to handle situations better than most.
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