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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 TedNugent wrote:
tulun wrote:
Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.


I can understand that, it just bums me out that trukk has no actual offensive capability. Boyz and snaggaz are definitely better in offensive output than they were, it just feels like a huge tax to pay 70 points on top of 95-110 points to get a naked boyz squad on the table.


TBH, nothing makes me happier than getting something out of a unit that has already 'served its purpose'. A transport that has delivered its cargo and then drives directly in front of a huge enemy model or unit. A suicide unit who survives with one model that then goes to secure an objective or start a secondary action out of LOS.

I've always loved 'non-combat' units since starting to play warhammer so long ago, because it always feels like when you squeak an advantage out of them you're earning the win.

Plus, every time you force an enemy super-duper-uber-unit to spend their turn obliterating an empty transport, Dawn of War has alraedy given you the perfect line to quote:

"We will take. *Snort, slobber*....their METAL BAWKSES AWAYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 office_waaagh wrote:
 Grotrebel wrote:

Sadly Gun Crazy Showoffs can only be used at the end of the shooting phase.
But there should be plenty of ways to trigger the culture anyways.
Ah, good catch! So not much help triggering the +1...on the other hand, it means they can trigger the bonus for themselves - you can blow away a unit with the gitz and then use gun crazy showoffs to shoot again with the +1 to hit this time.


This is true. I think for my part though, I'm most likely to try and use basically whatever the cheapest unit I've got available that can score a quick kill on an enemy unit. Squigbuggies are probably the #1 thing my freebootas wont be leaving home without - very often in 9th my opponent is hiding some little unit behind Obscuring somewhere to try and get an action off, and the squigbuggy is just the tool to plink those suckers off and kick off the remainder of the phase +1 to hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 18:31:00


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




In fact the Grot gunner gives the squig buggies +1 to hit on the heavy squig launcher anyway...looks like thats the answer then.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






RedNoak wrote:
Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?


I rarely jumped it anyways unless there was a high value target that needed killing because it hit worse when you did. It's already a fairly fast model and has become a lot cheaper, I still think it's one of the best buggies we have, the extra rokkit shots and better saws are also welcome improvements.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Same for me, i rarely jumped it after my friends learned to not leave their backsides wide open.
But i dont see it being that great because i dont remember ever, EVER shooting the dragsta and not being thankful i could reroll the D6 damage.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 deffrekka wrote:


Battlewagons feel best unarmed, your paying 135pts for something that might not use its Deff Rolla, or even get to choose what it uses its Rolla against if it gets charged by units it doesnt want to fight. A Battlewagon is more about getting your unit where it needs to go safely compared to a Trukk or two. With T8 and a 3+ save then ramshackle, it should get where it needs to go, however the meta is swimming in Melta/DLances/CLas that its still gonna go down like a sack of gob squigs. I think when these kind of weapons "finally" get brought in line with the rest of reality (costing them right) we might see Battlewagons hit the field. A Trukk is just enough, it gets you where you need to go, a Battlewagon just delievers a larger number of that unit or provides more room for cushioning against explosions (10 Grots).

A Squiggoth is a better gun platform for the likes of Bustas and Gitz, Trukks get you their faster and cheaper, a Killtank pulls double duty and a Killrig has the added benefit of more melee and also being a Beastsnagga. I dont think Battlewagons are bad, they just need a more chilled out AT meta than the others, its now amazing vs those str 5/6/7 damage 2/D3 shots with its improved armour save, but we arent in that state right now. Maybe when T'au and Eldar get redone as they are largely a str 6/7 army, but I imagine when Fusion Blasters/Guns and Railguns/BLances get the Melta DLance treatment, those types of weapons we see from them now with subside for these new AT ones.


Okay, so I'd be paying 135 points for a naked T8 transport that does nothing. Why wouldn't I just buy two trukks instead at that point? At least then I'd get two big shootas.

Again, Trukks literally are not faster than a Battlewagon, it's literally 12/8/6 on the Trukk and 12/9/6 on the Battlewagon. The Battlewagon is literally the same speed until it degrades, then it's actually 9" versus 8" on the Trukk.

My problem is, when you're talking about troops, even S5 troops that have a 6+ invulnerable save, they're going to squish when poked when they get to their destination regardless, after they deliver a bevvy of S5 attacks.
Why would I want a 70 point brick that does nothing once I get there? What is the point of getting there with a 10 man unit of boyz when the box does very little in combat other than absorb an overwatch that may or may not happen anyway?
It makes sense for something like Meganobz or nobz that actually have enough hitting power on their own to justify the 200+ points of that unit.

With Trukk Boyz you're literally paying 170 points just to deliver a basic troops unit to the front line where they will evaporate after a turn and leave the Trukk sitting there wondering what it's doing there.

Also, if melta is going to annihilate a battlewagon, why is it not going to do the exact same thing to a trukk? Admittedly it may be more efficient in that regard as melta doesn't differentiate between a 3+ and a 4+ or T6 and T7, which is the argument I'd be more receptive to. In that case, why take buggies? Or Killa Kans? Or Deff Dreads? Or Morkanauts? Or a Kill Rig? Or Stompas? Etc.

Someone made the exact same point when I brought up how strong the statline of a Squighog unit is. Oh, they're going to be blown off the board in one turn. Okay, and what isn't at that point? If everything is going to instantly evaporate in one turn of shooting, doesn't that mean everything is equally awful?
They're all going to instantly blow up from melta from the sky. Or, maybe a handful of them will be blown up, and the rest of them get to do work on the board.

There used to also be an idea of target saturation, e.g. go for broke on one thing. If you have volume of high T vehicles, you could conceivably overwhelm the opponent's anti tank and increase the chances of getting several across the board. I just think a Battlewagon is more efficient in that if one gets to the enemy's deployment zone, it can actually kill something.

I just basically came to the realization that a BW with a rolla is roughly the cost of two trukks. And it does pretty much the same thing (e.g. get from point A to point B), is roughly as durable and has multi damage close combat capability that Trukks lack. That's all.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

Here's the list I'm going to test over the next week or so.

Spoiler:

Outrider Detachment (Deathskulls, -3 CP) - 1010 points
Warboss on Bike - Da Killa Klaw, Brutal But Kunnin' (-1 CP) - 115
Kommandos x10 - Breacher Ram, Bomb Squig, Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 115
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Deffkoptas x5 - 250
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 90
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 90
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - 90
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - 90

Patrol Detachment (Snakebites, -2 CP) - 445 points
Beastboss on Squigosaur - Beasthide Mantle (-1 CP) - 145
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Nob on Smasha Squig - 65
Nob on Smasha Squig - 65

Patrol Detachment (Deathskulls) - 535 points
Deffkilla Wartrike - Warlord, Opportunist - 120
Kommandos x10 - Breacher Ram, Bomb Squig, Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 115
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Stormboys x5 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 65
Stormboys x5 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 65

Total - 1990 points,


I used Jidmah's list from a few pages back as a base and tweaked it to suit my own personal tastes and schemes.

My thought process is that I want to avoid traffic jams as much as possible and everything wants to either get into the enemy's face, or into the middle of the board, so things are going to be clumping up with all of the big bases.

The boys all start in the trukks, so they have a reasonably small footprint to start. They want to get moving and challenge objectives with ObSec.
The kommandos all start upfield, so they arent clogging the deployment zone and can be very close to the opponent's in some cases. They want to put inital pressure on and get some turn one charges.
The stormboys and koptas can start in deepstrike, so they aren't clogging, and can come in to steal objectives and chase away/cripple their respective squishy targets.
The bikeboss zooms upfield and tries to annihilate something, he is the resident murder missile.
The squigboss and his cronies are similar to the bikeboss, they want to be pointed at something that either really needs to die or something that I otherwise don't have an answer for and need to drown it in MWs.
The trike tries to snipe characters, fish for CP's, Speedwaaagh, and for eating smller units that need mopping up.
The Scrapjets do Scrapjet stuff.

I wasn't sure about the Snazzwagons, but they are a respectable amount of anti-infantry firepower without eating up lots of points or taking up a lot of board space like Warbikers would do. If I don't need the anti-infantry and need more anti-tank then I can replace them with Shokkjump Dragstas. Not sure what I would do if I needed more anti-infantry, I'm hoping that the melee oomph of the list will handle that.

I didn't go as hard as Jidmah on the relics just to have another CP for our horrendously expensive stratagems.

I already own a fair amount of the models needed, and I'll be proxying everything else, so anything is game on really. Please let me know what you all think.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?


I hate battlewagon as open topped transports. They were good in older editions when AV14-12-10 was much better than AV10-10-10 but at T7 two trukks are actually much tougher to kill than a single wagon. It's 20W vs 16 typically since against dedicated anti tank there's really no difference between T7 3+ and T6 4+, and trukks are two bodies. They can also be in two different places which means it's easier to have something valuable in range and at the same time if the enemy melta squad targets one trukk the other one will likely be outside juicy range. Not to mention that a BW eats up an heavy support choice while trukks are dedicated transports.

There's really no reason to prefer an open topped BW to a couple of trukks. Having two vehicles instead of one also helps for secondaries like Engage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TedNugent wrote:


I just basically came to the realization that a BW with a rolla is roughly the cost of two trukks. And it does pretty much the same thing (e.g. get from point A to point B), is roughly as durable and has multi damage close combat capability that Trukks lack. That's all.


Pay 15 points and that wagon is T8, which makes some difference against lots of weapons.

"Cheap" wagons died with 7th edition. BW without 'ard case and rolla doesn't make any sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 19:55:18



 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




As someone who has constantly fought CWE I've greatly preferred trukks to wagons.

A wagon is just a target to doom and jinx. You can't doom and jinx TWO trucks.

Divided targets has a different kind of durability, and injured wagons don't really fight too well. they are also harder to hide behind terrain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 20:14:22


 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




did the exact wording for the whaaagh! has been leaked? been rummaging through imgur but couldnt find it. the community article also didnt really specify on HOW and WHO (which keywords) can call a whaaagh!
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Afrodactyl wrote:
Here's the list I'm going to test over the next week or so.

Spoiler:

Outrider Detachment (Deathskulls, -3 CP) - 1010 points
Warboss on Bike - Da Killa Klaw, Brutal But Kunnin' (-1 CP) - 115
Kommandos x10 - Breacher Ram, Bomb Squig, Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 115
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Deffkoptas x5 - 250
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 90
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 90
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - 90
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - 90

Patrol Detachment (Snakebites, -2 CP) - 445 points
Beastboss on Squigosaur - Beasthide Mantle (-1 CP) - 145
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Nob on Smasha Squig - 65
Nob on Smasha Squig - 65

Patrol Detachment (Deathskulls) - 535 points
Deffkilla Wartrike - Warlord, Opportunist - 120
Kommandos x10 - Breacher Ram, Bomb Squig, Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 115
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Stormboys x5 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 65
Stormboys x5 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 65

Total - 1990 points,


I used Jidmah's list from a few pages back as a base and tweaked it to suit my own personal tastes and schemes.

My thought process is that I want to avoid traffic jams as much as possible and everything wants to either get into the enemy's face, or into the middle of the board, so things are going to be clumping up with all of the big bases.

The boys all start in the trukks, so they have a reasonably small footprint to start. They want to get moving and challenge objectives with ObSec.
The kommandos all start upfield, so they arent clogging the deployment zone and can be very close to the opponent's in some cases. They want to put inital pressure on and get some turn one charges.
The stormboys and koptas can start in deepstrike, so they aren't clogging, and can come in to steal objectives and chase away/cripple their respective squishy targets.
The bikeboss zooms upfield and tries to annihilate something, he is the resident murder missile.
The squigboss and his cronies are similar to the bikeboss, they want to be pointed at something that either really needs to die or something that I otherwise don't have an answer for and need to drown it in MWs.
The trike tries to snipe characters, fish for CP's, Speedwaaagh, and for eating smller units that need mopping up.
The Scrapjets do Scrapjet stuff.

I wasn't sure about the Snazzwagons, but they are a respectable amount of anti-infantry firepower without eating up lots of points or taking up a lot of board space like Warbikers would do. If I don't need the anti-infantry and need more anti-tank then I can replace them with Shokkjump Dragstas. Not sure what I would do if I needed more anti-infantry, I'm hoping that the melee oomph of the list will handle that.

I didn't go as hard as Jidmah on the relics just to have another CP for our horrendously expensive stratagems.

I already own a fair amount of the models needed, and I'll be proxying everything else, so anything is game on really. Please let me know what you all think.


Interesting approach, many good points. It's definitely a list that needs evolving and I'm going to look out for the traffic jam issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RedNoak wrote:
did the exact wording for the whaaagh! has been leaked? been rummaging through imgur but couldnt find it. the community article also didnt really specify on HOW and WHO (which keywords) can call a whaaagh!


Sixth image in this collection:
https://imgur.com/a/GI7nqNO

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 20:36:07


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 Jidmah wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
RedNoak wrote:
did the exact wording for the whaaagh! has been leaked? been rummaging through imgur but couldnt find it. the community article also didnt really specify on HOW and WHO (which keywords) can call a whaaagh!


Sixth image in this collection:
https://imgur.com/a/GI7nqNO


Thanks! sooooo a warboss on bike can call a speedwaagh right? come to think of it he has the warboss keyword too... but i'll guess he will loose it when the FAQ drops
   
Made in es
Gangly Grot Rebel




44-98 against drukhari. I got annihilated.

I had not enough firepower to disembark his infrantery, so I went like crazy but didn't success.

6 squads of 11-14 boyz with a warboss and kff. 8 Warbikers in objectives. Trukkboyz with meganobz (still don't know if they will permit it) and megaboss, 4 KMK, 3x5 stormboyz, 3x5 kommandos and stuff

His Fight Last of incubi and his Fight First of everything just annihilated my army. That's all I have to say. His dark lances were not so powerful, I degraded all his reapers so he was shooting so bad. I was just unable to respond in combat due that I was dying before fighting

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Sheridan, WY

Kebabcito wrote:
44-98 against drukhari. I got annihilated.

I had not enough firepower to disembark his infrantery, so I went like crazy but didn't success.

6 squads of 11-14 boyz with a warboss and kff. 8 Warbikers in objectives. Trukkboyz with meganobz (still don't know if they will permit it) and megaboss, 4 KMK, 3x5 stormboyz, 3x5 kommandos and stuff

His Fight Last of incubi and his Fight First of everything just annihilated my army. That's all I have to say. His dark lances were not so powerful, I degraded all his reapers so he was shooting so bad. I was just unable to respond in combat due that I was dying before fighting


It sucks that our best relic, one that could counter all the fight last BS you see these days, is klan locked to one of our worst kulturs now (evil suns).

Y'all might have thought of this already, but the blood axes strat that allows you to place units in strategic reserves is actually pretty useful. Those units can stay in reserves until rounds 4 or 5 if they wanted. Could be useful with MSU stormboyz/kommandos for engage/octarious.
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Warboss on Bike currently has both Warboss and Speedboss, for some weird reason.
Thing is, they cant really remove the Warboss tag unless the core codex also gets fixed to mention "Speedboss" instead of specifically "Wartrike"

The 1 boss per detachment calls out "Warboss" and "Wartrike" not "Speedboss"
Currently, Bikerboss is affected because he has both but the moment they remove it and 'forget' to update the 1boss per detachment rule technically the bikerboss is now unaffected by that dumb rule.

Which would immediately get fixed once someone tries to use it but thats not the point lol

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






there is a difference between understanding that suffering damage to durability before dealing any damage is a potential issue for a damage-dealing unit, and doomering that anything will die if enough damage is dealt to it...

Squighog boyz are a turn 2 tempo unit. 99% of the time if you do charge them turn 1 your opponent handed you that charge by moving up and you went second. They will take 1-2 turns of firepower before doing anything, as opposed to Trukk Boyz/Nobz, Stormboyz, or shooting units that can operate on a one-turn tempo setup, or transported units like a manz missile that are more likely to survive to deliver a T2 tempo punch.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 the_scotsman wrote:
there is a difference between understanding that suffering damage to durability before dealing any damage is a potential issue for a damage-dealing unit, and doomering that anything will die if enough damage is dealt to it...

Squighog boyz are a turn 2 tempo unit. 99% of the time if you do charge them turn 1 your opponent handed you that charge by moving up and you went second. They will take 1-2 turns of firepower before doing anything, as opposed to Trukk Boyz/Nobz, Stormboyz, or shooting units that can operate on a one-turn tempo setup, or transported units like a manz missile that are more likely to survive to deliver a T2 tempo punch.


And don’t forget Kommandos, who can also turn 1 charge (well if you don’t get fethed by stuff that forces you to deploy further)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 23:35:10


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 01:08:27


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Okay, so, in regards to the killiest boss. I will engage in this silly discussion and I have two candidates.

Someone suggested goff squigosaur with headwoppas killchoppa and brutal but kunnin'. I think you're right. I think he actually blows Mozrog clean out of the water.

The math is incredibly complex, but I think this is right.

Spoiler:

Raw damage versus T4 3+
Headwoppas Killchoppa
5 attacks
.83*.83*.83*5
2.85 unsaved wounds
5.72 raw damage

Squigosaur jaws
3 attacks

Bear with me because here it gets a bit more complicated due to the mortal wound proc.
5/6 chance for no proc on wound
.83*.83*.83*.83*3
1.42 unsaved wounds with no procs
*3 damage 4.27 raw damage
1/6 chance to inflict 3 mortal wounds on wound roll
.16*.83*3
.3984 * 3 Mortal Wounds
1.195

Brutal But Kunnin'
Procs on attacks which fail to reach the damage step. Squigosaur jaws that proc mortal wounds do not reach the damage step, so I'm including these.
No additional attacks with squigosaur jaws, so I'm taking these all to be killchoppa attacks since BBK does not specify it has to be the same weapon.

Failed Killchoppa attacks:
5-2.85 = 2.15 new attacks

Failed Squigosaur Jaw attacks:
3 - 1.42 = 1.58 new attacks

Total 3.73 new attacks
.83*.83*.83*3.73
2.13
2.13 * 2 damage
4.27 raw damage

Now, your 6+ autohits from Goffs.

For this number, I take all cumulative attacks including BBK attacks and then divide by 6 for the hit rolls of 6.

5+2.15+3+1.58
11.73
This is the number of total attacks.

11.73 / 6 = 1.95
This is the total number of autohits proc'd from the Goff clan rule.

1.95 * .83 * .83 =
1.35
This is the total number of unsaved wounds at 2 damage from Headwoppa's killchoppa. (Technically, I think you could use the squigosaur jaws since the rule only states that you cannot get more than 3 attacks, but it doesn't say anything about hits, but I'm using the Killchoppa)
2.7 raw damage

Finally, the mortal wounds proc'd on the killchoppa. Since this is 6's to wound, I'm including the autohits from the Goff special rule, since those are hits and have a wound roll.
Total attacks: 5+3.73 = 8.73
Multiplying by 5/6 to get the total number of hits.
.83*8.73
7.24
Adding to autohits from Goff clan rule
1.95 + 7.24
9.2

Divide by six for the total number of wound rolls on a six:
9.2/6
1.53 mortal wound procs total from headwoppas killchoppa.

Adding together:
average of 1.53 + 1.1952 = 2.73 mortal wounds average

Base attacks raw damage from unsaved wounds
5.72 damage

Squigosaur jaws base attacks raw damage from unsaved wounds
4.27 damage

Raw damage from BBK Headwoppas killchoppa:
4.258 damage

Raw damage from 6+ autohits from Goff clan rule:
2.57 damage

Total damage:
16.82 raw damage against MEQ 3+ / T4 + 2.73 mortal wounds


This gets even more filthy with Da Bigger Dey Is or No Mukkin' About. Da Bigger Dey Is would increase your damage by 2 per unsaved wound, No Mukkin' About would double your autohit procs.

Runner up I think is warboss with Da Killa Klaw and an attack squig with Goff clan and Brutal But Kunnin'.

Spoiler:

Against MEQ T4 / 3+ profile
5 base attacks
*.83*.83*5 = 3.4445 unsaved wounds
3 damage each
10.32 damage

2 attack squig attacks
.83*.66*.5*2
.55 unsaved wounds at 1 damage

Here comes the cheese

Brutal But Kunnin'
5 attacks - 3.4445 = 1.5555 new attacks

2 attack squig attacks - .55 = 1.45 new attacks

1.45 + 1.5555 = 3 new attacks total

3*.83*.83 = 2.07 unsaved wounds
* 3 damage = 6.2 raw damage

6+ auto hit procs from raw attacks including BBK procs and base attack hit rolls on a 6.
Total Da Killa Klaw attacks = 3 + 5 = 8
Divided by 6 to represent 6's to hit:
8/6
1.33 autohit procs
1.33*.83 = 1.11 at 3 damage
3.32 raw damage

E.g. 3.32 + 6.2 + 10.32 + .55 = 20.39 raw damage


Both of these options are inferior to Morzog in survivability. However, they are cheaper, with their choice of any free relics, can take any clan (Goff, obviously), and with this selection of relics and BBK I think their pure damage output is on the level of Da Biggest Boss with BBK and DKK from the 8th edition codex.

Obviously, depending on whether they FAQ Brutal But Kunnin' to limit you to new attacks with the same weapon.

I am definitely not re-doing the math for Toughness 8, but I genuinely believe a Beastboss on Squigosaur with Headwoppas Killchoppa and BBK could stomp a generic knight with the "Da Bigger Dey Is" strategem in one turn. With the 5 base attacks alone that's 9 damage on average before the procs start rolling. And you get more BBK procs for each attack that fails to reach the damage step (e.g. higher toughness, invulnerable saves, etc). If the Knight swung first you could use Orks is Never Beaten.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Since everyone is going on the buggy bandwagon, I tried giving it a go with the models I have ready (trying to strictly only include stuff that I have painted ideally)

Spoiler:
Ork Buggy SpeedWAAAGH! 2000 point list:

Total CP: 12 - 4 = 8 CP

Ork Deffskullz Outrider Detachment (-3CP) - 1,310

HQ - 115

Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw
Big Boss WL Trait: Brutal but Kunnin (-1CP) - 115

Troops - 90

10 Trukk Boyz Specialists, Nob with Two Choppas - 90

Fast Attack - 520

Mega Trakk Scrapjet - 90

Mega Trakk Scrapjet - 90

Mega Trakk Scrapjet - 90

Kustom Boosta Blasta - 80

Kustom Boosta Blasta - 80

Shokkdrump Dragsta - 90

Flyers - 325

Dakkajet with 6 Supa Shootas, More Dakka - 135

Wazbom Blastajet with two Tellyport Mega-Blasta, Blasta-Jet Forcefield - 210

Elites - 170

10 Kommandos, Nob with Power Klaw - 110

5 Kommandos, Nob with Power Klaw - 60

Dedicated Transports - 70

Trukk - 70

Ork Deffskullz Patrol Detachment - 690

HQ - 120

Deffkilla Wartrike, WL Trait: Opportunist - 120

Troops - 90

10 Ork Trukk Boyz Specialists, Nob with Two Choppas - 90

Fast Attack - 240

Shokkjump Dragsta - 90

3 Deffkoptas - 150

Heavy Support - 170

2 x Deff Dread with 4 Klaws - 85

Dedicated Transports - 70

Trukk - 70


Any thoughts? I was wondering if the Deff Dreadz and Kommandos don't synergize enough, or if I have too much CP left over given that our strats aren't all that hot now.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






tulun wrote:
I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.


Honestly, when I look at all these kommadoz+boyz+stormboyz+warbike lists I wonder what they heck they plan to do about drukhari. You lack the firepower to dismount units from their ships with such lists even if you go first and drukhari have enough damage output to just wipe your entire army off the board. Without big blobs of boyz acting as solid rocks, I don't see this being a build that can tackle any match-up.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Against Drukhari, with the leadership nonsense and number of attacks/wyches fighting twice etc I still think 3x10 is better than 1x30. 30 kommandos is 30 pts more than 30 boyz.

The match up has issues no doubt, but I don't think blobs are the answer to anything with this codex unfortunately.
   
Made in es
Gangly Grot Rebel




I played 6x11 boyz. He had more troubles dealing with them, but they ended dying anyways.

KMK were OK, they knocked out some raiders and stuff, but that's all.

Warbikers never did a single hit in melee due that incubi killed them even being me the one who charges,

Succubus killed my 5 meganobz.

Deffdread was just a joke tank removed in 30 seconds (1 dark lance and then shooting from the embarked models).

I'm not expecting to improve the final result with a 9th edition list. 2 Squiggbuggies will help a lot, but not enough to change anything. I cannot build 9 KMK in a tournament just in case I play against drukhari, and then losing against everything else

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






shabadoit wrote:
Against Drukhari, with the leadership nonsense and number of attacks/wyches fighting twice etc I still think 3x10 is better than 1x30. 30 kommandos is 30 pts more than 30 boyz.

The match up has issues no doubt, but I don't think blobs are the answer to anything with this codex unfortunately.


Of course, what I meant to say that the list lost the option to bring big solid rocks completely, because boys simply aren't that anymore.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
tulun wrote:
I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.


Honestly, when I look at all these kommadoz+boyz+stormboyz+warbike lists I wonder what they heck they plan to do about drukhari. You lack the firepower to dismount units from their ships with such lists even if you go first and drukhari have enough damage output to just wipe your entire army off the board. Without big blobs of boyz acting as solid rocks, I don't see this being a build that can tackle any match-up.


Agreed. It's also straight up 50/50 on the roll off to not lose a bunch of assets for nothing.

I think in general raiders are going to cause Orks absolute headaches. There's basically nothing in the codex that really efficiently kills a raider once they pop lightning fast. You need to force it out and hopefully shoot another one.

Edit: I will say this can be done safely via the Blood Axe redeploy strat, but the efficiency lost is absolutely nuts.

You go down to like 17 wounds instead of 27 vs T4 -- I forgot to add the wound roll to the above (you wound on 2s with the distraction grot). I'm not sure it's enough to punch to be viable without Goffs. In order to regain the same sort of efficiency, you have to add 5 more kommandos and they have to make engagement range.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 09:50:35


 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

tulun wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
tulun wrote:
I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.


Honestly, when I look at all these kommadoz+boyz+stormboyz+warbike lists I wonder what they heck they plan to do about drukhari. You lack the firepower to dismount units from their ships with such lists even if you go first and drukhari have enough damage output to just wipe your entire army off the board. Without big blobs of boyz acting as solid rocks, I don't see this being a build that can tackle any match-up.


Agreed. It's also straight up 50/50 on the roll off to not lose a bunch of assets for nothing.

I think in general raiders are going to cause Orks absolute headaches. There's basically nothing in the codex that really efficiently kills a raider once they pop lightning fast. You need to force it out and hopefully shoot another one.

Edit: I will say this can be done safely via the Blood Axe redeploy strat, but the efficiency lost is absolutely nuts.

You go down to like 17 wounds instead of 27 vs T4 -- I forgot to add the wound roll to the above (you wound on 2s with the distraction grot). I'm not sure it's enough to punch to be viable without Goffs. In order to regain the same sort of efficiency, you have to add 5 more kommandos and they have to make engagement range.


Yeah, DE look like they will be difficult to handle for the alpha strike list. I'm honestly just hoping that the Squig missile and the Bikerboss will get up the board quickly enough to take out the Raiders, and that I can otherwise just keep throwing enough shots at them in the hopes that they stick. I also have plenty of MW output from the Squig missile, bomb squigs and the Scrapjet nose rams that I'm hoping that I don't have to worry about Lightning Fast too much.

I kind of expect my Kommandos to get wiped off the board early every game, but if they can eat enough firepower that something more valuable isn't being shot off the board then I'll be happy. They should be reasonably tough to shift (for Ork infantry) if I can get them into cover.

Doing some quick math (which might be wrong), the Snazzwagons actually end up being my best shooting option against Raiders with LS, and the damage output is absolute trash.

Writing this, I've also realised that if you have two individual Snazzwagons, you can give one the Souped Up Speshul and the other More Dakka to get more shots out of both without massive differences in the output between the two
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy





I´m bullish on Warbikerz. They´re a cheap, large footprint, fast, objective sitting, fire platform with better durability pointswise than Boyz. I don´t necessarily see them as an alpha strike unit although they definitely are in that domain in a Speedwaagh!. Yet can be a sacrificial unit due to being so cheap.

On the Biker topic I really like that they gave the Deffkilla 5++ to make it an option against the Biker Warboss. Many times you just want maximum killing power from the Warlord, but as a primarily a BA player I often want a broader role for him. E.g. his huge base is a neat tool for board control.
   
Made in es
Gangly Grot Rebel




In 8th, drukhari wouldnt have destroyed me this way.

Incubi couldn't stop my initiative as my leadership was like 30, 20, 10... now its 6 or 7.

I don't understand why they are the faster army of the game and still have fight first mechanisms. If they are fast, why would they need fight first? They can fight when they want, if they are catched in the middle of the board disembarked, is due to a bad move from the player.

Respect of lists building. I supose I will go tournaments with a Goff detachment of Squigboss, Wurrboy, 3x10 snaggas and Squighogs (maybe killrig, not sure) and casts dogs spells into squighogs for full damage into the middle of the table. Then i'll play a small detachment of trukkboyz (with meganobz and megaboss if we are able to do it) and 3x5 stormboyz and 3x5 kommando with ObSec. With the points left, some suiggbuggy and KMK for small dakka firepower...

I hope i don't face too much drukhari or admech in tournaments, they both oneshot my army

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Scactha wrote:
I´m bullish on Warbikerz. They´re a cheap, large footprint, fast, objective sitting, fire platform with better durability pointswise than Boyz. I don´t necessarily see them as an alpha strike unit although they definitely are in that domain in a Speedwaagh!. Yet can be a sacrificial unit due to being so cheap.

On the Biker topic I really like that they gave the Deffkilla 5++ to make it an option against the Biker Warboss. Many times you just want maximum killing power from the Warlord, but as a primarily a BA player I often want a broader role for him. E.g. his huge base is a neat tool for board control.


5++ just seems to be a generic trait they gave all Warbosses, the Bikerboss is only missing it because it's pre-9th codex. If they are thorough about errata'ing the Ork FW compendium datasheets to be consistent with the 9th codex, I would expect the Bikerboss to gain a 5++, -1 to hit against shooting, auto-6" advance, Dakka profile Dakkaguns, and a new aura to replace Speedwaaagh. He's already gotten a T and W boost so yet another wound obviously is not happening.
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

 Scactha wrote:
I´m bullish on Warbikerz. They´re a cheap, large footprint, fast, objective sitting, fire platform with better durability pointswise than Boyz. I don´t necessarily see them as an alpha strike unit although they definitely are in that domain in a Speedwaagh!. Yet can be a sacrificial unit due to being so cheap.

On the Biker topic I really like that they gave the Deffkilla 5++ to make it an option against the Biker Warboss. Many times you just want maximum killing power from the Warlord, but as a primarily a BA player I often want a broader role for him. E.g. his huge base is a neat tool for board control.


I really like the Wartrike at the moment. Really solid unit.


Something else I've noticed that I might play with; Big Meks all have 4+ BS now. So Deathskull SAG Meks with Enhanced Runt Sucka may become viable again, as even though we don't have the SSAG or shoot twice an average of 4 shots at S7 AP-5 and D3 is pretty chewy for us coming from BS 4+ with a reroll to hit or wound. He's also ObSec as a DS, so he can sit on the home plate if needed.

I might also try out a Mega Mek with either a Tellyport Blasta and Extra Kustom Mega Blasta, or Tellyport Blasta and Dead Shiny Shoota. So it could either go and hunt tanks/monsters/characters with lots of high strength dakka followed by a charge with his klaw, or go out and chew through clumps of infantry with the Tellyporta's blast and the high volume shots from the DSS and cn go Bad Moonz for Showin' Off if you want to go further. Could be an additional character to consider if you don't want to take another detachment for another Boss.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






I'm gona run meganobz - I have 15 since the bully boyz formation in 7th - and i'm thinking on how to run them. Practice shows that making them too expensive and killy is not gona work cause their truck/wagon is gona be top priority. So, 3-4 in a truck or 5-6 in a wagon are a max.

Now what real options do we have. As a mostly light vehicle shooty force, we do need some semi-durable infantry that's hard to push off objectives w/o dedicated multi damage high app weaponry that usually goes into other stuff. Also, it can be nice to tap something to prevent it from shooting.

- Trukkboyz meganobz. If it's a legal option, which currently ain't no given. But if it is, they can be quite a nice tool. 35 base cost per model but I'm thinking of running them with kombi-rokkits for utility. But here's a question - do they still get +1 to hit from a freeboota trukk? Even though they loose the clan keyword?

- Freeboota meganobz. No rule collisions here. All kombi-rokkits, without hesitation. The heavy -1 to hit gets offset by this amazing clan bonus and you can go up to 4+ if other units kill enough. You are much more autonomous, no long-ass-charges but you can get obsec for 1cp. You can also camp on a midfield objective w/o a trukk (probably what you're gona do anyways - even with trukknob disembark+charge).

- Goff meganobz. The choppiest ones. I'm not gona use them now as I don't believe our choppingess can go toe to toe with what other codexes have. Mostly cause we can't realisticslly counter fight last time on the enemy big hitters in mellee. So, dark eldar, dark angels, even death guard are not gona be good targets for meganobz. And if a 350+ pt squad that also needs a ton of cp and/ortransports/babysitters to do the job can't deal with ~ the same amount op enemy mellee hitters...why bother.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 12:20:29


 
   
 
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