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The flight path game that Wizkids is using for Star Trek Attack Wing has seen a lot of development and advancement since it first came out. One of the big things I wish they would do (without rebooting the game) would be to go back and "resize" the ships. Right now, everything essentially fits on a small base, excluding the super-huge models. I just wish they would come out with an alternate version of some ships that are more "in-scale".
Leave the TOS ships on small bases, but scaled to the Reliant. The Excelsior would probably be the largest at that size, teetering on being a Large ship.
Move most of the Next Gen ships to large bases, scaled up to Reliant scale. Most of the Borg ships would probably be this size. Scimitar, some of the Dominion ships might need an "Epic" scale about 25% bigger than a Large base.
The Borg cube, DS9, Zindi Weapon and such would remain unaffected.
I'd also like to see an "advanced" game ruleset, which shifts the game more towards Armada-type rules, but uses most of the same models (but maybe different bases that could be bought as add-ons/upgrades).
These aren't terrible idea, but I feel like this is something that won't happen due to cost restrictions.
The cost of creating the new molds, the increased price of the larger ships (there is about a 30% difference in price from a single small base ship to a single large base ship in X-Wing), the potential cost to players with the requirement to get new models for the same ships, the cost to develop the new rules set (which they would have to purchase the rights to from FFG)... its a VERY expensive good idea...
"I aim to misbehave"
"I find your lack of faith, disturbing."
"There's too many of them..." *static*
Star Trek Attack Wing, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, Imperial Assault
I agree with the above. From the sound and look of it (especially reusing models without even bothering to do proper repaints), wizkids is taking the cheapo route and I don't see them redoing dozens of model moulds.
I would like at least some semblence of a coherent scale applied throughout though. There is a wide (pun intended) range of ship sizes from fighters to multiple kilometer long Jem Hadar battleships so I don't expect an exact scale but rather a broad correlation. The defiant should be smaller than a Constitution class which should be smaller than a Galaxy but each transition should be gentle and not jarring. YMMV.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
While this is surely a "pie-in-the-sky" wish, my hope was that the old ships wouldn't be so much discontinued, but the new ships advertised as "deluxe" versions. If popular enough, I could see the old versions being eventually discontinued, but hopefully still legal in games,
It seems to be the case when things start being invalidated (and swathes of folks collections become unusable), that it starts to hurt the game. I'd hope if Wizkids were to do this, they'd have the sense to do it in a way that doesn't hurt popularity.
No the fed ships are from Japan the Vorcha is a micromachine and the rest are resin and metal minis. I got these years ago way before shapways was even a thing.
Those are great Cypher - I've been at times eyeing (I think) the same Fed ships.
I'd actually been wondering if the new Eaglemoss diecast ships, that come with a magazine, are the right "upscale" for some of the newer ships, or too big.
Some guys who collect 1/7000 say the romulan ships from eaglemoss say they come close to 1/7000.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Damn, it's been a long time since I've been on dakka talking about something else besides badmouthing PB about how they screwed up rrt?lol
Thing is in a few weeks I'll be picking up the STAW core box along with a ship or two. I really need to get my trek fix.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/04 12:32:35
@Cypher: Nice collection of Klingons! I've been looking at the eaglemoss stuff for the past couple of weeks on and off. There are definitely the same scale inconsistencies in their line just like with STAW as they seem to be shooting for a specific size of model regardless of the size of the ship.
I too might be buying my first STAW ships (just two likely) in the next week... and one will likely be my own NX prototype in that it'll be warping right into my stripping solution to see if I can get the paint off.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Cypher-xv wrote: I'm definitely getting the Akira. Next to the enterprise class it's my favorite ship design. Why did you mention the NX-01. I want that ship too.
It's the ship I plan on buying and trying to strip. I've been looking at both it and the mirror universe Avenger and am a bit peeved at Wizkids and their upgrade choices. I do hope they come out with an ISS Enterprise (NX class) with Mirror Universe crew along with a Suliban cloaking device. Hopefully it'll be a proper repaint with the appropriate markings but given no one else gets them I'm not going to hold my breath. I also don't know if they're holding off on doing that because there already is an ISS Enterprise ship booster or if the combo of mirror universe and NX era makes for a low selling product.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cypher-xv wrote: If the game was to scale the Akiraprise would look like a blip on the table.
Agreed... but that's why I was proposing a sliding scale similar to what I advocated for Robotech's (spits on the ground) various eras. Much smaller ships should be noticeably smaller but not necessarily exactly in scale smaller. No one wants to pay $15 for shuttle craft the size of the tip of a ball point BIC pen but the only alternative isn't having them bigger than the TOS Enterprise.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/04 18:50:38
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Agreed... but that's why I was proposing a sliding scale similar to what I advocated for Robotech's (spits on the ground) various eras. Much smaller ships should be noticeably smaller but not necessarily exactly in scale smaller. No one wants to pay $15 for shuttle craft the size of the tip of a ball point BIC pen but the only alternative isn't having them bigger than the TOS Enterprise.
Yeah, the TOS Enterprise for Attack Wing really ticked me off. Luckily I had a micromachine version I could use to replace the dinky little thing. Setting that ship at the scale they did for the Reliant should have been the base size they used, then scaled from there (though runabouts and shuttles may have needed scaling up). Though I didn't realize the Akira/Thunderchild was that small...
What's really frustrating is that the two different classes the Klingon Bird of Prey (the bigger K'vort and the smaller B'Rel from Star Trek IV) use exactly the same model in STAW!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking around and reading, it looks like the scale I'm looking for is about 1/3,900. To put that in context, the Enterprise-D would be about 5" long, and the mighty Scimitar would be about 9" long.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/05 10:33:00
The big fly in the ointment with this is the D'Deridex. Those things are massive and I wonder at what making them huge would do to the game mechanics of what is a rank and file ship in the rules.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The big fly in the ointment with this is the D'Deridex. Those things are massive and I wonder at what making them huge would do to the game mechanics of what is a rank and file ship in the rules.
My simple solution would be to make it noticeably longer than the Galaxy (maybe 30%). Are there varying size references for it btw? IIRC in the TNG episode where the Romulans ended their isolation and the ship was premiered, it looked huge but it didn't really look that huge afterwards for the rest of the series. I don't know if they were purposely making it look more menacing just to play up the Romulans with camera angle and forced perspective tricks (similar to how they made the Gandalf actor in the LOTR movies look much taller in certain scenes than the hobbit actors than he was). You have sites like this that show the DDeridex so much bigger but then the wiki referencing the official tech manuals has it at roughly 1,040m compared with the Galaxy's 640m.
Agreed... but that's why I was proposing a sliding scale similar to what I advocated for Robotech's (spits on the ground) various eras. Much smaller ships should be noticeably smaller but not necessarily exactly in scale smaller. No one wants to pay $15 for shuttle craft the size of the tip of a ball point BIC pen but the only alternative isn't having them bigger than the TOS Enterprise.
Yeah, the TOS Enterprise for Attack Wing really ticked me off. Luckily I had a micromachine version I could use to replace the dinky little thing. Setting that ship at the scale they did for the Reliant should have been the base size they used, then scaled from there (though runabouts and shuttles may have needed scaling up). Though I didn't realize the Akira/Thunderchild was that small...
What's really frustrating is that the two different classes the Klingon Bird of Prey (the bigger K'vort and the smaller B'Rel from Star Trek IV) use exactly the same model in STAW!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking around and reading, it looks like the scale I'm looking for is about 1/3,900. To put that in context, the Enterprise-D would be about 5" long, and the mighty Scimitar would be about 9" long.
Was the attack wing TOS the same model as the heroclix and captain battle one? It is odd that no one caught such a goof over three product lines or at least cared enough to say WTF?! internally. I didn't realize the Akira was small either (I'll have to look that up) but dipping my toes into this game's model line is my first real experience with it. I didn''t remember it from the movies and actually thought it was just some random expanded universe ship from off of a one off novel cover art or something.
The site I linked mentions using /12500. I'm not sure how accurate that is given the overall size of the models. WIth the super wide range of ships all fitting onto the same size base, I'm sure that scale is true for some of them but I doubt it's a common one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/05 15:59:21
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
The Akira has conflicting sources for it, like much of Star Trek (the problem with two companies holding the rights and more than 20 writers contributing material). The same with the Galaxy and D'Dedrix: several different technical manuals refer to the ships differently.
If I may be so bold, when discussing re-sizing things, why not use Attack Wing as our resource? Within the three eras, scale the ships relative to hull value. So the Defiant would be among the smaller Federation Ships of Next Gen era, likely to be similar to the NX (Something that gets overlooked a lot). The Akira would be similar in side to the Galaxy.
"I aim to misbehave"
"I find your lack of faith, disturbing."
"There's too many of them..." *static*
Star Trek Attack Wing, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, Imperial Assault
Depending on your source the Akira is slightly wider than sovereign class and just a bit shorter in length. For a small ship the Defiant is still a tough ship.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really need to paint some of my ships soon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/05 18:55:39
Corpsman913 wrote: If I may be so bold, when discussing re-sizing things, why not use Attack Wing as our resource? Within the three eras, scale the ships relative to hull value. So the Defiant would be among the smaller Federation Ships of Next Gen era, likely to be similar to the NX (Something that gets overlooked a lot). The Akira would be similar in side to the Galaxy.
I hadn't thought of using attack wing stats as the decider of size but I'm not personally a fan of the idea. A small but tough ship shouldn't get a size boost IMO just because they used a metre more of hull plating or because they mounted double the torpedoes at the expense of everything else. I'd strongly prefer that Wizkids use the official stats (or choose one of the "official" stats when they conflict) and use that as a basis for model sizes. I'd also strongly prefer if they developed three general base sizes for use with the game as well (similar to large and small bases in x-wing). Ships would fall in one of the two base sizes that things would be relatively scaled within those two broad categories. Something like the Defiant would be the lower cutoff while the Galaxy could be the upper cutoff for medium base and a moderately larger DDeridex could be the smallest of the large base ships. Shuttles and smaller craft (say for example <100m) would be on the smallest base size. The key would be to choose those prototypical "cutoff" size ships and scale everything within that category in a non-linear fashion. Except for the ships in the "medium" base size category, that would necessitate completely new models for most of the line which likely means it'll never happen until someone else gets the license.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would anyone here be interested in helping with a thread that lists the scales of individual minis in the STAW line? I'm not at all knowledgeable about whether such a resource exists elsewhere but, if it doesn't, it might help to create it here. I'd be willing to start the thread and coordinate/update it but I'd need alot of help seeing as how I'll only just be starting to buy STAW minis. What I'd need from others is just a simple length measurement in mm of models obviously at their longest point. I'd then derive the scale from the memory alpha/beta Star Trek wiki lengths (where listed) to give folks a general idea of the scales of various parts of the STAW lineup and how they compare with the listed scales of other Star Trek model lines with stated scales like the Eaglemoss Collectors series. Thoughts?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/05 21:24:36
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
I'll gladly help with that, as it crosses nicely with what I'm wishing here. I don't have all the ships though, and none of the Borg, but I'll start collating what I do have.
BTW, the only reference I could find to the size of the D'Deridex being "twice the size of the Enterprise-D". I seem to recall some other mention that the D could fit in the empty space between the D'Deridex's hull.
Stormonu wrote: I'll gladly help with that, as it crosses nicely with what I'm wishing here. I don't have all the ships though, and none of the Borg, but I'll start collating what I do have.
BTW, the only reference I could find to the size of the D'Deridex being "twice the size of the Enterprise-D". I seem to recall some other mention that the D could fit in the empty space between the D'Deridex's hull.
Memory Alpha (the wiki for the actual episodes/movies) quotes the designer of the actual ship as saying around 1,350m
It's a big ass ship regardless. I'll start the thread later tonight asking for sizes and would appreciate whatever you can measure. I figure if the regular players/collectors post just a few model lengths each, we should have most of the line given the number of repeated releases.
My main reason for suggesting it is to just have a reference point for folks that want to incoporate other models into STAW that might be more scale correct or vice versa. I plan/hope to mainly get Enterprise NX era stuff mainly as a theme (not specifically to play STAW) as I just like the era idea and designs. If I get a STAW NX-01, the vulcan ships are ridiculously underscaled with the D'Kyr being almost the same length as a Galaxy class in stats but just a bit longer than the NX in STAW. I could instead use a larger Eaglemoss D'Kyr model instead for themed games (obviously not OP play which I have no interest in). They don't have to be exact by any means but the vulcan ship should be noticeably larger but isn't. This obviously isn't a shock to anyone that posts in this thread but in this case there is no size discrepancy like with the D'Deridex but rather a conscious rescaling to fit in the booster at minimal cost to wizkids.
Spoiler:
Somehow this
became these:
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/02/06 02:27:51
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Sweet! Thanks. That's pretty much what I was asking about/going for so no point in reinventing the wheel here unless someone finds lots of mistakes. Congrats on the new minis!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/06 03:53:40
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Yeah, I know Wizkids was hot and heavy to hit while the market was hot (since the Star Trek clix were getting their eyes beat out in sales), but I really think they didn't put much more than 5 seconds thought into the game they came up with. I mean, X-Wing at the time already had large ships with the Falcon/Lambda, Wizkids could have put more thought into upscaling some of the ships to larger bases from the beginning.
Armada really seems like it would fit Star Trek ships a lot better, and it shouldn't be too difficult to convert the stats - I just haven't played Armada enough yet to get an accurate feel for it's ship design (Flight path, I feel like I know that system well enough to whip up about any ship's base stats from any sci-fi property).
Someone started doing Armada stats in another thread, but it devolved into the typical 'Star Wars vs. Star Trek' junk that just derailed what was looking like a good start.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, my Eaglemoss Enterprise-E just came in today and it's got me eager to start dissecting the Armada rules to figure out how well that might work out.
Of course, the first Star Trek tabletop game I ever played was the FASA Starship simulator, and if I can find a way to incorporate *some* of the power distribution gameplay from that game into this one - perhaps replacing Armada's command dials - that would be awesome.
(I've also got an Eaglemoss Enterprise-D and D'dedrix coming, this is gonna be fun!)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/09 06:31:27
The Energy mechanic for Huge ships in X-Wing might be a place to start.
Essentially, each maneouvre gives the ship a certain number of Energy tokens. fast maneouvres, or turns, give less than slow straights. You then allocate these tokens to cards (either ths ship card or upgrades) to hold until needed to be spent to improve attacks, etc.
I'll start the thread later tonight asking for sizes and would appreciate whatever you can measure. I figure if the regular players/collectors post just a few model lengths each, we should have most of the line given the number of repeated releases.
