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Hello dakka, I would like to hear your opinions on my 50p army list.

Grand Scurator Severius
Blessing of Vengeance
Templar
Vanquisher
6 man choir of Menoth
10 man Exemplar Errants with UA
Reclaimer
Vassal of Menoth
Vassal of Menoth
Avatar of Menoth
Deliverers Sunburst Crew

Totals to 50 points

I feel the reclaimer could be dropped. I'd consider some of the amazing 2 pt merc solos available to the protectorate to fill the gap.

 motyak wrote:
I feel the reclaimer could be dropped. Your msin source of souls (errants) will be self sacrificing heaps, and that denies you souls. I'd consider some of the amazing 2 pt merc solos available to the protectorate to fill the gap.

Would you suggest that I drop the sunburst crew also?

I haven't used them before, or seen them used, but if they'll work with anyone I imagine they'll work with Sevvy1 thanks to Eye of Menoth ha. So it's worth a shot because why not.

I recommend dropping the templar. It's not that great. Grab a Devout for shield guard and making Sevvy immune to spells.

As mentioned, drop the reclaimer. Not because of the self sacs, as destroying still drops tokens(And that's what self sac does). It's more that you can replace him with Rhupert or Anastasia.

I also think you should drop the avatar. Beyond the Vision/Ashes shenanigans he's good for pulling, he's far too expensive for what he brings. Especially when he funds a unit of TFG and UA + Pyrrhus/any other 3 point solo.

Sunburst crews are actually good. A Pseudo-RAT 7 Pow 16 AoE 4 weapon is always good. But they need the right support. Kreoss1 and Sevvy both contribute to that. They also need actual Deliverers or other crews to partner with.

Other than that, min-choir is always better. unless you're running 5-6 jacks, you're wasting a point. And the faction has a single caster who runs that many, and he's a bit pants, to be frank.

Wrong Avenger. The Templar and Avatar are amazing jacks. Maybe not particularly with Sevy1, but they're good things to have.

I would drop one of them because you want more infantry with Sevy to benefit from Eye of Menoth. TFG+UA for the Templar would be my choice as the Avatar lets Sevy cast his spells without needing to worry about fueling jacks.

Drop the Reclaimer to get a Hierophant, make the Choir minimum to get Wracks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Wrong Avenger. The Templar and Avatar are amazing jacks. Maybe not particularly with Sevy1, but they're good things to have.

I would drop one of them because you want more infantry with Sevy to benefit from Eye of Menoth. TFG+UA for the Templar would be my choice as the Avatar lets Sevy cast his spells without needing to worry about fueling jacks.

Drop the Reclaimer to get a Hierophant, make the Choir minimum to get Wracks.

The only time I'd ever consider the avatar out of a fun game(read:unoptimised lists) is in a pSevvy list where you run the vision+Ashes trick on him. As for the templar, it's an 8 point jack that is worse in combat than a crusader, and less durable than a Vigilant, both of which cost two points more when taken together, and will give you a lot more mileage. Or, for 1 point more, you can take Salvation or Scourge, who are both probably the top jacks in faction.

Generally, Sevvy1 wants to run his custom arc node, and that's it. That lets you get errants+UA, TFG+UA, Bastions and all the other menite goodness.

Wow, words cannot express how wrong you are.

The Templar has reach, beat back, and a shield. He's a very nice jack for a melee beat stick. He has 1.5 inches of threat over the crusader, plus beat back schenanagins.

Avatar is just all around amazing. He hits like a truck, has a long threat range, and he doesn't take any focus from your caster.

And really? Scourge is a top jack? That's not even a good joke. He's the most useless hunk of junk you could have. Fire of Salvation is good though.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Wow, words cannot express how wrong you are.

The Templar has reach, beat back, and a shield. He's a very nice jack for a melee beat stick. He has 1.5 inches of threat over the crusader, plus beat back schenanagins.

Avatar is just all around amazing. He hits like a truck, has a long threat range, and he doesn't take any focus from your caster.

And really? Scourge is a top jack? That's not even a good joke. He's the most useless hunk of junk you could have. Fire of Salvation is good though.

Ah yes. Beat back. That thing that's inferior to the shield on the Revenger in every way possible. The revenger also has a shield. As for beat back shenanigans, in all my time using the 1" push on a revenger, you know how many times I thought they were useful? Zero. Unless you're playing against an army which leaves it's caster towing a zone, Beat back is entirely useless. At which point, to get to the caster would mean you win on casterkill.

As for the avatar, yes, he's good. But you know what's better for 11 points? A unit of Bastions and a seneschal/Pyrrhus/Nicia/Vilmon/Knight Exemplar Seneschal/Rhupert/Anastasia. I'd rather not tie over a fifth of my army in a model that's A) Insanely easy to kill. B) Easy to lock down and C)A single model.

Scourge is a really good jack. Mat 7 Pow 18 and Pow 16 with Arcane Vortex(Negating magic), Arcane Assassin(No focus boosting on shields), Purgation, Chain weapon. and Thresher. I mean, sure, you could tell yourself that any of those things are bad on their own, let alone in conjunction. That won't make it true.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Unless you're playing against an army which leaves it's caster towing a zone, Beat back is entirely useless. At which point, to get to the caster would mean you win on casterkill.

Yeah, because that never happens. ever. Oh wait, it happens all the time. And its not just about killing the caster. its about shuffling a model's position, either the Templar and/or the model it is attacking. You can beat back yourself into range to contest an objective/zone, beat back your opponent out of contesting an objective/zone, you can beat them out of an important charge lane, you can move yourself into an ideal position for next turn...

I could go on. Seriously, beat back is one of those seriously awesome abilities. I've had it win me multiple games, only a few of which involved assassination.

As for the avatar, yes, he's good. But you know what's better for 11 points? A unit of Bastions and a seneschal/Pyrrhus/Nicia/Vilmon/Knight Exemplar Seneschal/Rhupert/Anastasia. I'd rather not tie over a fifth of my army in a model that's A) Insanely easy to kill. B) Easy to lock down and C)A single model.

I love Bastions and a combat solo. But I wouldn't say they're better than the Avatar. They're different and do different things. Besides, the Avatar is usually taking a slot which would normally be occupied by another heavy, he's not taking up points I would be using for an infantry unit. So at most he's 3 points more expensive than another jack. And please, he's not "insanely easy to kill". He's just as durable as any of our jacks with shields, actually moreso because its much harder to cripple him due to having more hull boxes and his system placement being different than normal.

Scourge is a really good jack. Mat 7 Pow 18 and Pow 16 with Arcane Vortex(Negating magic), Arcane Assassin(No focus boosting on shields), Purgation, Chain weapon. and Thresher. I mean, sure, you could tell yourself that any of those things are bad on their own, let alone in conjunction. That won't make it true.

No, just no. Scourge is terrible.

Arcane Vortex is situationally useful, but it makes him a huge focus hog. Plus we have tons of spell hate to begin with, which diminishes the usefulness here.

Purgation is really nice, if you can get him there. Which is the real catch on a speed 4 jack with no reach, its ok for Crusaders because they're only 6 points(or 5 points in the theme forces you usually take them), but its not good on an expensive character. Thresher is of limited usefulness with only .5" melee.

Ultimately, he's terrible because he is slow and has nothing to compensate for it. Being slow in a faction of slow jacks is the kiss of death. Being focus inefficient in a faction of focus efficiency is also the kiss of death. There is a reason you don't see people playing him competitively.

If he had reach on that sword and dumped the blazing star for a Vanquisher cannon then he's be worth it, but as it is he's poorly designed and just doesn't measure up.


Please educate yourself about the faction before giving advice. We don't want to give bad advice to newbies who don't know any better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Grab a Devout for shield guard and making Sevvy immune to spells.

Also, pSeverius has Sacred Ward. So he's already untargetable by spells.

After reading the stats of the templar and avatar, I kind of agree with avenger. The avatar has great utility and offensive capabilities, but it's about as durable as the crusader, and the avatar costs twice as much, making it a huge risk. Also, the templar has some nice abilities and a shield, but it seems laking in terms of offensive, as the total pow of both of its weapons is rather low. I have been thinking of replacing these jacks with a castigator/reckoner/crusder and a squad of infantry, as 4 jacks that need focus seems a bit too much for severius to handle. For the infantry I am not sure about which to to use, bastions come to mind. Also, could somebody tell me, that why is the reckoner so good? It seems quite mediocre with its weapons, and the special abilities look like they need a lot of synergy, such as a unit of deliverers to work with.

Then you'll think all the stats of everything is low.

The Templar is pow17. Which is the same pow as the Reckoner, and is in fact the average pow of a primary melee weapon of a warjack. And seriously, beat back, reach, and pow17 are fantastic in terms of offense. Saying they aren't just shows naivety about the game.

The Avatar and Templar are way way way more durable than a Crusader due to a shield(2 armor is huge in this game), and the Avatar has Sacred Ward(so with choir can be immune to spells and non-magical shooting at the same time). Plus they have a far longer threat range, which means the enemy will have less time to get the drop on them.


Here is some math as to why shields a huge for survivability.

Lets have a Dire Troll Mauler attacking two jacks. A Templar vs a Crusader.

Against the Crusader: Troll Mauler charges(1 fury). Lets assume all his attacks hit(he only needs 4s). Charge attack(pow16, dice -3) does a total of 7 damage(average of 10, minus 3). His second initial hits and does 4 damage(7-3). For his chain attack he does a headbutt which does 1 damage on average(and makes all his other attacks auto hit). He now buys a total of 4 more attacks(each doing 3 damage). He causes a total of 24 damage to the crusader(leaving it on 8 boxes, and almost certainly missing multiple systems)

Against the Templar: Each of those attacks does 2 less damage because of the shield. Charge attack: 5 damage. 2nd initial: 2 damage. heatbutt: 0 damage. 4 more attacks averaging 1 damage each. Total of 11 damage on average. Its unlikely that the Templar even lost a single system since each attack individually did so little(each attack would have to have gone on the same column to even have a chance of losing everything). And in fact, the only systems it would have been possible to lose are one of the arms, if all damage had gone on either the 1-2 columns or 5-6 columns(and the system would not have been disabled till the 2nd to last attack as it takes 10 damage to knock out the arm system of a protectorate jack)


As for why the Reckoner is so good.

Its speed 5 and has reach on a pow17 melee weapon. This gives it the best threat range of all our jacks innately(Avatar has same threat as well), a charge threat of 10". But of course that's not a pow17 melee weapon, its pow19 because choir will be singing Battle when it matters.

It has Assault, and a pow15(with choir) ranged gun with Flare. This means with 3 focus, when it charges, it gets a pow15 attack before its charge attack(at rat7) which if it hits makes the target have -2 defense. Then it makes it pow19 charge attack, and then can buy 2 more pow19s. Add in that we have several casters who have spells which can increase charge distance and/or give free charges and you have an all around amazing jack. And even when its not going into melee, its gun is range 12 and it can boost it. A boostable range12 pow15 is nothing to sneeze at.

Ashen Veil is an amazing defensive tool. It gives the Reckoner def12 against spells and ranged attacks, which is where the bell curve starts becoming favorable for defensive stats. And in melee, it gives living enemies a -2 to hit debuff, which means it benefits not only the reckoner but also everyone around him. Most beasts are mat6 for example, going from needing 4s to hit a jack to needing 6s is a big leap in probability to miss. Now if the beast is attacking something else, like some of our infantry, it becomes even worse. Defense 13 becomes effectively defense 15, and beasts go from needing 7s to needing 9s.

And you get all of this tech for only 8 points. The general consensus is that the Reckoner is the best non-character warjack in the game for his cost. If the Reckoner cost 10 points you would still see them.