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Ok, we have allredy seen the new orkurion. It's... not the best out there. However, it could be possible to put it into use. My oppinion is a Warband in Trukks with the WAAAAGH!-Council and a single Deffkopta or Warbuggy. It can be fit into 1850 pts, but it's best played at 2000 pts. Let the brainstorming begin!

Hard to tell just how powerful it is without seeing the rules of the formations themselves.
The "Decurion" own rules may not be much, but they help.


However, this is the -second- "orkcurion", being the Ghazghkull detachment. the "main orkcurion" may have more powerful benefits, and probably have some different detachments (and less named character centered ones)

It's stupid. Why are we forced to take 6 units of Boyz? Why not something like 2-10 or something like that?

The core formations are 524 and 749 but if you actually want to optimize them to take advantage of the Orkurion rules and ensure stuff doesn't die, then you need to spend at least 1k on the cores alone buffing your armour/models so that you don't go below 10 and that the Warboss stays alive.

Ghaz is cool with army wide Fearless turn one, but he's basically the focal point of the Orkurion. If he dies then the army loses one benefit on the Orkurion which is not the case with the others that have been released.

BoomWolf I can tell you that of all the formations present, only Bullyboyz and Blitz Brigade stand out as good. You can find them on Bloodofkittens, they were originally in the Great Waaaagh! supplement.

Those Plane formations? Yeah garbage. Dakkajets gain Tankhunters on Flyers (5-6's to glance though, coming from BS2), Blitzabombers can use their single S7 Ap2 on tanks with tankhunters, Burnabombers get S5 weapons as opposed to S4.

It's not looking good.

Not to mention the Waagh!-band's benefits are the same as the benefits of the Orkcurion.

Great value there... not.

Only difference is that you can Waaagh on the first turn...but like if the Warlord dies lol.

For less points you could basically take 2 Ork Horde Detachments to have 6 HQs and a ton of grots to hold objectives and tons of elite, HS, and fast attack slots. Only good thing turn 1 WAAAGH gives is a cheese build of trukks with boarding planks to move and unload, run, and hope you can make a long charge on turn 1. Stormboyz might be good for a turn 1 mega long gap closer but that tax for a WAAAAGH-Band is really high. If you go 2nd you might as well pack up because your entire strategy is done. Even then a smart opponent will deploy 6 inches back and your turn 1 charge is completely null.

Maybe I have too much blood in my eyes over this cluster gak of a formation but I just don't see any viable tactics in this Decurion except for gimmick turn 1 charge tactics. Hopefully they updated some of the Ghazz formations to take them with a CAD. How the green tide wasn't made a core is mind blowing.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's stupid. Why are we forced to take 6 units of Boyz? Why not something like 2-10 or something like that?

The core formations are 524 and 749 but if you actually want to optimize them to take advantage of the Orkurion rules and ensure stuff doesn't die, then you need to spend at least 1k on the cores alone buffing your armour/models so that you don't go below 10 and that the Warboss stays alive.

Ghaz is cool with army wide Fearless turn one, but he's basically the focal point of the Orkurion. If he dies then the army loses one benefit on the Orkurion which is not the case with the others that have been released.

Because the "go-to" army formation for orks is a horde of boys, much like the "go-to" marines is a whole lot of tacticals? 524/749 minimal cores isn't bad. and they are not the only ones who can go north of 1000 points for a well equipped core.
Its nothing out of the ordinary.
The various Decurions have cores that make fluff sense for most armies, with a substantial count of troops. a minimum of 60 boys in the core isn't even much compared to what orks SHOULD be like. and perhaps under the formation, boys squads with little to no upgrades are actually viable, taking advantage of quantity over quality.

 Frozocrone wrote:
BoomWolf I can tell you that of all the formations present, only Bullyboyz and Blitz Brigade stand out as good. You can find them on Bloodofkittens, they were originally in the Great Waaaagh! supplement.

Those Plane formations? Yeah garbage. Dakkajets gain Tankhunters on Flyers (5-6's to glance though, coming from BS2), Blitzabombers can use their single S7 Ap2 on tanks with tankhunters, Burnabombers get S5 weapons as opposed to S4.

It's not looking good.

Some of the Kayoun/Mont'ka formations were also in old releases like apocalypse or datasheets, and they were changed. either the same units with slightly different rules, or at some cases, even the unit list was changed. Optimized Stealth Cadre, Firebase Support Cadre and Armored Interdiction Cadre for example, are nothing like their old versions.
Kittens have the old versions. they could very well have changed, or at least got tweaked. for example, the "ork warband" they got has the unit count of the new "waaagh!-band", yet the abilities of the primary orkcurion.

I have to say this new Decurion is awesome for the orks! Being able to spam multiple Waaaaaaghs from turn 1 on top of giving every ork Hammer of Wrath is somewhat of a terrifying prospect to face. I have to really good Ork Watbosses at my FLGS and they are already talking about and scheming on how to kick the snot out of everyone, and with this new look they can definitely do it.

 Frozocrone wrote:

Those Plane formations? Yeah garbage. Dakkajets gain Tankhunters on Flyers (5-6's to glance though, coming from BS2), Blitzabombers can use their single S7 Ap2 on tanks with tankhunters, Burnabombers get S5 weapons as opposed to S4. .

Those Boom Bombs are S7 AP2 ARMOURBANE baby. Tankhunter is just reliability increase so basically every hit is a pen (unless your incredibly unluckly). Also Burnabomber weapons are base Str 5 so it would go up to Str 6 which is decently respectable. The Dakkajet one is the real groaner with tankhunter vs flyers which is not the dakkajets strength (tankbustas and lootas make far better AA). WAAAGH every turn does help the jets but its still meh. They should of gave the Dakkajet the old WAAAGH gunner with double shots instead of +1.

They might be tweaked sure. Krushin Krew got Rage instead of Furious Charge.

It's just so little effort went into this and we're shoe horned into large mobs to make it work, What if you want to run Trukk Boyz, or Warbikers, or even just a Dread Mob?

Not just that, but the core is so rigid. Necrons can take 2-8 of Warriors, multiple units of Tomb Blades, 0-3 Lychguard, 0-2 Monoliths and so on. Eldar get a choice of three cores to choose from, which are way cheaper to optimize (seriously, just plonk Scatter lasers and D cannons on stuff and you're good to go, especially when it's free) SM and Tau can choose which FA and HS slots they want. The only customization Orks get is do you want Grukk or a Warboss and do you want Meganobz or regular Nobz.

And those point costs for the Warband and Kill Mob are the absolute bare minimum, one casualty and you lose the bonus.




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 Vankraken wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

Those Plane formations? Yeah garbage. Dakkajets gain Tankhunters on Flyers (5-6's to glance though, coming from BS2), Blitzabombers can use their single S7 Ap2 on tanks with tankhunters, Burnabombers get S5 weapons as opposed to S4. .

Those Boom Bombs are S7 AP2 ARMOURBANE baby. Tankhunter is just reliability increase so basically every hit is a pen (unless your incredibly unluckly). Also Burnabomber weapons are base Str 5 so it would go up to Str 6 which is decently respectable. The Dakkajet one is the real groaner with tankhunter vs flyers which is not the dakkajets strength (tankbustas and lootas make far better AA). WAAAGH every turn does help the jets but its still meh. They should of gave the Dakkajet the old WAAAGH gunner with double shots instead of +1.

They are also single shot which is meh. You need at least a three to do any real damage and Tankbustas do S8 AP3 or AP1 Armourbane with Tankhunters which is better by far. I use Blitzas for elite Infantry because you'll do more damage.

Thought the Burnabombas were S4, my bad.

Dakkajets was the decent one. But Rending would have been better.

I guess that "the formations in kittens are NOT the up-to-date formations" concept is not registering for you.

And "one casualty and you lose the bonus" only applies to the "Da Green Horde" bonus, not the four (though two of the four are warlord related) others, nor for the bonuses derived from the formation itself (that you don't even know yet!)

If you want trukk boys? buy trukks for your boys. nothing in the formation forbids it.
Warbikes? they are in the auxiliary choices as a free-floating unit. you can spam them mostly freely once you get any core.
"Just a Dread Mob" you can take it without the Orkcurion.

Heck, this is far more flexible than you give it credit for. it has 15(!!!!) whole units from practically every FOC slot as free-floater choices that you can mix and match freely. no other decurion variant has more than 2.



And if the orkurion still don't work for you, you can always default to a CAD, or any of the ork detachments, or the yet unseen orkurion (as this is the ghazkull one, meaning "vanilla orks" will get another one)


And considering you only know the -general premise- of the formations based on their old rules means you really can't tell what is good and what is bad.

That was actually helpful! Thank you.

I'm talking about the core formations when I talk about little flexibility. I'm aware that there are a huge number of auxiliaries.

Think I'll just stick to a CAD to be honest.

Is there a rumour on a vanilla Orkurion? It's my understanding that both Ghaz and vanilla Relics can be taken in this detachment.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I guess that "the formations in kittens are NOT the up-to-date formations" concept is not registering for you.

And "one casualty and you lose the bonus" only applies to the "Da Green Horde" bonus, not the four (though two of the four are warlord related) others, nor for the bonuses derived from the formation itself (that you don't even know yet!)

If you want trukk boys? buy trukks for your boys. nothing in the formation forbids it.
Warbikes? they are in the auxiliary choices as a free-floating unit. you can spam them mostly freely once you get any core.
"Just a Dread Mob" you can take it without the Orkcurion.

Heck, this is far more flexible than you give it credit for. it has 15(!!!!) whole units from practically every FOC slot as free-floater choices that you can mix and match freely. no other decurion variant has more than 2.



And if the orkurion still don't work for you, you can always default to a CAD, or any of the ork detachments, or the yet unseen orkurion (as this is the ghazkull one, meaning "vanilla orks" will get another one)


And considering you only know the -general premise- of the formations based on their old rules means you really can't tell what is good and what is bad.

The issue is 6 units of Boyz + 1 unit of grots is very restrictive as your locked into a decent chunk of your army being boyz (which in the current Ork playbook is not something you want to bring in every list). Bike lists want warbikers as troops and baring that they want minimum troop and lots of fast attack slots. Dread Mob style wants lots of deff dreads and maybe some kanz with zero of the trashanauts. Green tide wants a proper Green Tide formation which this orkurion doesn't allow. Blitz Brigade wants maybe 2 units of boyz and the rest specialist orks like tankbustas, nobz, etc. Only thing this formation is any good at is trukk spam and even then 6 units of boyz is a lot when its probably preferable to spam tankbustas, meganobz (bully boyz), and maybe burna boyz. This orkcurion doesn't even allow for many painboyz or utility HQs so your stuck with the common problem of only 2 HQs (warboss + painboy) for an entire army. The whole Hammer of Wrath bonus is basically half the time useless for trukk lists as losing the trukk (explode) ends your 10+ model count for the unit.

The core issue with this Detachment is that it doesn't offer any new strategies except for maybe cheesy turn 1 assault strategy (cheesy because going 2nd might as well be an auto lose). The bonuses are incredibly lackluster for how much your restricted in your build options and the bonuses don't really synergize with anything. The person who made this designed this to more of a thematic foot slogging strategy but did NOTHING to address the major concern of foot slogging builds which is "how do I not get shot to death trying to walk to the enemy". Also this person has a love affair with the dumpsternauts. The free floating aux options, while offering some flexability, show a lack of effort when they can't even figure out a way to make it "hey take 3 units of X to get Y bonus". They just chucked all the utility options into the 1 off choices with no benefits. Why they even bothered splitting up the free floating options into 4 entries is beyond me except to maybe hide how lazy they where being.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I'm talking about the core formations when I talk about little flexibility. I'm aware that there are a huge number of auxiliaries.

Think I'll just stick to a CAD to be honest.

Is there a rumour on a vanilla Orkurion? It's my understanding that both Ghaz and vanilla Relics can be taken in this detachment.

They can, as far as we know right now. However, a vanila decurion is unlikely.

A vanilla decurion might not happen -now-, but its bound to happen at some point.
Probably during eventual codex update, or in a campaign featuring non-ghaz orks.



And yes, it restricts you to have a large portion of your army as boys.
Isn't that how a classic ork army SHOULD look like though? a huge horde of orks who are not much of a threat individually, but when massed are a disaster?
Its not the most competitive build (heck, is any ork build remotely competitive?), but its how a classic fluffy ork army should be. lots and lots of boys, with several small gangs of disorganized oddlots with special tools, weapons and tactics that most orks don't care much for, and several impressive figures that lead their own small "clubs".

It looks and feels like a proper ork army. and I'd much better enjoy facing/playing an ork army that looks like this over some of the current ork lists (power scales aside)
Now all that is left to see if if the rules for the formations themselves will make it a viable playstyle. hopefully they will.

Sorry to ask here but is this just a part of the new W!G release? Or has the whole book been released via the digital update?
I'm having trouble understanding which it is.

From what I understand, (upcoming) new W!G release, but I might be wrong there.

"Boyz before toyz" is now a forced motto, not just a motto. That mentality died off in 7th, as i usually do waaaay better with 2-3 20man boy squads even at 2k points. Compared to the last codex, thats a weird thing to say since i usually ran twice that many boyz.

Tons of boyz just dont do anything anymore. They fail so many leaderships thus either take extra damage from Mob Rule or run away.

I expected the formations to be rewritten into a decurion style, i mean the formations werent "bad" they were just unreasonablly expensive. Ork Warband rules are now including turn 1 and no longer have the 10" charge restriction for HoW, but its the big formation rule not the Ork Warband rule. I really dont understand why they didnt give us ranges of units to take like..yaknow...EVERY OTHER CODEX has these days. I would love to run bullyboyz and blitz brigades but 15 MANz is just too many in my eyes and 5 battlewagons takes up more than half the army, leaving no room once you fill the wagons.

The only actual bad rules we have to deal with are the suppliment universal ones. +2 on a chart where depending on the situation we want low or high, is not a good thing, and i could easily see our warlord being forced to make a challenge/accept it really screwing us over in several situations, but at least if he wins one he can reroll wounds in the future.
Its just too expensive to do anything.

Did they give the WAAAGH-Band any rules to accommodate the fact that they took their rules and made it the decurion rules?

The warband rules are not yet known. I'd assume they got something else, but its GW so a chance of madness is possible. (though imagine its something such as having the boys get free extra 10 bodies? boys before toys suddenly is VERY workable)

And if you want less wagons, you can just take wagons as auxillary yaknow.

Honestly, I don't understand you guys.
Yes, the formations themselves are extremely ridged and at times clunky (though with possible changes to rules yet unknown, its early to tell), but they auxillary floating picks is just so over the top that it means once you placed a single core, you can freely mix up most of the codex as you see fit, without even thinking of FoC slots or the likes, and net the orkurion benefits for whatever units relevant.

Being able to Waaagh every turn starting on turn 1, coupled with Prophet of the Waaagh warlord trait, pretty much eliminates leadership issues, which is kind of a big deal. I doubt it makes Orks on equal footing with other top tier codecies, but it DOES allow you to play with your toys without them all annoyingly fall back or kill one another.

Take battlewagons as an aux choice, they lose the special rules Blitz Brigade grants. Same goes for pretty much every formation.

Dreadmob for instance adds rules that are basically mandatory to make the walkers somewhat viable (giving them 'ere we go! changes so much), but that formation is damn near ~1500pts. Yeah i can just take nauts, dreads, and kanz in other ways so i dont have to have THAT many of them but then i lose the formation rules, which renders them useless again.

For the most part its not the formation rules that are the problem, its the costs of the damn core and individual formations. We are complaining because there isnt ANY flexibility: its you take mass boyz, or you run a CAD. If you take mass boyz, you are either mandated to run the Council to bypass the terrible Mob Rule problem, bank on rolling a 1 with non-ghaz warboss, or run trukk boyz and hope you go first/make that T1 charge.

You cannot run biker themed lists within this formation, because you still have a gakton of boyz for some reason. One squad of bikers is all you can squeeze in, thats not a biker list.
Guess i'll take a CAD instead.

Vineheart01 has it spot on, without even touching on the points that the units themselves are ok at best.

I'm actually not surprised with what we got. It's like cadion. Some possibly cool bonuses but so restrictive and without much needed obsec that CAD is better.

What can i tell about this from the get go. +2 to mob rule is awful for small units of boyz. It basically steals mob rule from them and leaves you with ld7. There are 2 options to deal with it. Take large squads - preferably max or get everything fearless. First option is not viable cause 180 boyz. You'll hate your life after forfeiting a game on it's 4-th turn after 6 hours. Besides, it's not even that strong without obsec with so few claws. 2-d option is either a stompa or Ghazzy. Codex stompa won't do it with freaking 6 squads of boyz. And Ghaz can't be taken without his awfully bloated council.

Besides, you still need vsg to add durability and big gunz to actually kill something in the opponent's backlines.

All in all, i see the orkurion as a potentially fun thing to run but weaker than cad.

There's a reason the original core formation we're forced to take, has never been popular.

part of the problem is that Da Boss iz Watchin' is so bad that you are forced into taking the council of waagh just to have Ghazghkull.

Council of waaagh+waaaghband is 1138 points WITHOUT any upgrade to any unit

It looks like this thing is gonna be played with Ghaz or isn't gonna be played at all. Why does everyone get to choose between 2 and 4 things, but we don't?

Another bare minimum effort by gw. They weren't willing to spend the time to change all the formation for a better orkurian focus.
The orkurian as it is is actually decent for games 3000pts and on. It's an apocalypse decurian. That would be fun, I won't argue that, Haveing a fearless ork horde marching and waaaaghing to the enemy.
This decurian though is uterly unflexable for the common 1850 or 1500 game.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The warband rules are not yet known. I'd assume they got something else, but its GW so a chance of madness is possible. (though imagine its something such as having the boys get free extra 10 bodies? boys before toys suddenly is VERY workable)

And if you want less wagons, you can just take wagons as auxillary yaknow.

Honestly, I don't understand you guys.
Yes, the formations themselves are extremely ridged and at times clunky (though with possible changes to rules yet unknown, its early to tell), but they auxillary floating picks is just so over the top that it means once you placed a single core, you can freely mix up most of the codex as you see fit, without even thinking of FoC slots or the likes, and net the orkurion benefits for whatever units relevant.

You can download the updated supplement from Blck Library already which I unfortunately have done. None of the formations have been updatd Same old formation boni, except Blitz Brigade now S 10 ramming and Krushing Krew having rage instead of furious charge. Heck the WAAAGH Band has almost the same special rule as the decurion.

Something i've just realized. You can take a lot of stormboyz and perform 1'st turn 12+2d6+2d6 charges. It's still not viable but fun if you get 1-st turn.


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 BoomWolf wrote:

it means once you placed a single core...

you have no points left to take anything else cause you need Ghaz or stompa to make this core relevant.
And you're left with a bloated melee squad and a bunch of boyz without enough target saturation or obsec.
You can play it and probably even win but cad or gt is simply better.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Honestly, I don't understand you guys.
Yes, the formations themselves are extremely ridged and at times clunky (though with possible changes to rules yet unknown, its early to tell), but they auxillary floating picks is just so over the top that it means once you placed a single core, you can freely mix up most of the codex as you see fit, without even thinking of FoC slots or the likes, and net the orkurion benefits for whatever units relevant.

I'm inclined to agree, and on all points you've made thus far.

In no way do I see the requirement to take 6 units of boyz a problem. I firmly believe Ork armies should be masses of basic boyz - or else they're not flavourful. But, I also have the position that I don't play games smaller than 2000 Points in my gaming group. So when I'm consistently bringing 3k-4k to the table, these formations simply work well, and I'm not really limited at all. Below 2000 points? yeah, sure, these aren't useful - but I don't understand why that's a problem, because you should just be running CAD at that level anyway, shouldn't you? Formations have never seemed like they're intended to be taken in small games, and are designed to be taken in larger games of 3000+ points.

Also, I don't really see sufficient evidence for the claims of "constant leadership issues". I don't typically have many issues passing at Ld7, save in combat, but usually I'm winning combat because of my mass of attacks. I also watch batreps on youtube (Miniwargaming, StrikingScorpion82, and Front Line Gaming, mostly), and their Orks never seem to have any leadership issues. Mob Rule doesn't really seem to be nearly as bad in reality as it is on paper (and to be clear, on paper, it's a terrible rule - but I just haven't seen it causing that many problems in practice).