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 Segersgia wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.

The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.

I'm actually convinced that once Warhammer; the Old World drops and we get new Greenskin sculpts with them, we will get the option to play them as normal Orruks. This is my tinfoil hat theory.

I mean that would indeed be the dream. I actually miss the old 19 orc box.

Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)


Elves are in an odd place because there's two breeds of Aelf in AoS because of how their gods mess with them. So you've got your natural born Aelf and then you've got Aelves rescued from the belly of Slaanesh.


Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar Aelves are all, at their core, natural born Aelves. They are just raised within different social groups. An Aelf from any one of them could be raised differently and turn out differently, save for any physical variation within different populations etc..

However DoK Also have Khinerai and Melusai which are technically Aelves of a different kind with the reforging of new bodies for old souls. Idoneth are a whole race of them.

We've yet to fully see Malarion's forces though they appear to have a strong shadow affinity, but I suspect this is like how Lumineth have a powerful light magic affinity. So I'd expect the same pattern.



In truth your baseline aelves are more likely those within Cities of Sigmar as they tend to live in the more "normal" regions (overall) and tend to be less messed with by the various gods.

stratigo wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.

The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.

I do agree that it would be awesome to have a fantasy orc baseline. I mean, I am going to be buying Kruleboys and adding my own greenskins to the flock as a part of that force.


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 Overread wrote:
The problem Orruks had in AoS was they wound up with 3 armies at the very start which were the same structure. Each one was orruks, with big bosses and scrappy fighter and boar riders and such.

Some were plain; some were more wild with bones and some were more armoured and chunky.


Thing was they were 3 separate forces with the same structure. It was messy so I wasn't surprised we lost at least one, though I was surprised to see them chuck out some of the newer models in that.


CruelBoyz are at least very different in design and structure. They are doing fresh different stuff which is what the AoS Orruks greatly needed

I feel the issue was more that GW wanted to separate all the forces into distinct factions only to backtrack on it later and releasing the Orruks together. If they had done that from the start I imagine the Greenskins could have survived in a unified Orruk Warclans tome.


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 AduroT wrote:
I think high elves tend to be your baseline elves, Lumineth in this case.

After reading the Lumineth novel I think the Lumineth feel more like Star Trek's Vulcans than classical elves.

To be fair,. Vulcans are "Space Elves".

You’ve also got Sylvaneth as a sort of artificial/imitation elf, Alarielle making the tree people to resemble them, but without the old elf souls afaik.

 Overread wrote:
Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)


Elves are in an odd place because there's two breeds of Aelf in AoS because of how their gods mess with them. So you've got your natural born Aelf and then you've got Aelves rescued from the belly of Slaanesh.


Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar Aelves are all, at their core, natural born Aelves. They are just raised within different social groups. An Aelf from any one of them could be raised differently and turn out differently, save for any physical variation within different populations etc..

However DoK Also have Khinerai and Melusai which are technically Aelves of a different kind with the reforging of new bodies for old souls. Idoneth are a whole race of them.

We've yet to fully see Malarion's forces though they appear to have a strong shadow affinity, but I suspect this is like how Lumineth have a powerful light magic affinity. So I'd expect the same pattern.



In truth your baseline aelves are more likely those within Cities of Sigmar as they tend to live in the more "normal" regions (overall) and tend to be less messed with by the various gods.

Lumineth were recovered from Slaanesh weren't they (recovered by Teclis)? As are the DoK(Morathis tithe for helping)?

I did always wonder where the old world style Elves came from if all the Elves were eaten

 Overread wrote:
Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)

And they'll probably be replaced by this Dawnthingo Crusade armies, as GW shuffle off the last of the legacy Warhammer minis that haven't found a home in a 'proper' faction.

So I'll spend more time going back and forth on whether I really need a unit of Phoenix Guard. I mean, I never even played Fantasy, and yet I want those minis...

And Lumineth makes me want to try AoS...

Basically what I'm saying is that I like High Elves and I wish there were more of their kits still around.

Well, we know AoS has a solid track history of tying model releases to the timeline. It’s not to everyone’s taste, but at least it stops the “wE wErE hErE aLl TeH tImE!” shoehorning 40K can suffer from.

Could be Dawnbringer Crusades are a deliberate vehicle for Cities of Sigmar forces? A background reason for them to be heading into areas your average human wouldn’t last long in.

And whilst I can understand apprehension about buying into them right now, I do hope the last purge was just that. A final rationalisation of what’s staying and what’s going.

Vorian wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)


Elves are in an odd place because there's two breeds of Aelf in AoS because of how their gods mess with them. So you've got your natural born Aelf and then you've got Aelves rescued from the belly of Slaanesh.


Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar Aelves are all, at their core, natural born Aelves. They are just raised within different social groups. An Aelf from any one of them could be raised differently and turn out differently, save for any physical variation within different populations etc..

However DoK Also have Khinerai and Melusai which are technically Aelves of a different kind with the reforging of new bodies for old souls. Idoneth are a whole race of them.

We've yet to fully see Malarion's forces though they appear to have a strong shadow affinity, but I suspect this is like how Lumineth have a powerful light magic affinity. So I'd expect the same pattern.



In truth your baseline aelves are more likely those within Cities of Sigmar as they tend to live in the more "normal" regions (overall) and tend to be less messed with by the various gods.

Lumineth were recovered from Slaanesh weren't they (recovered by Teclis)? As are the DoK(Morathis tithe for helping)?

I did always wonder where the old world style Elves came from if all the Elves were eaten

Not all Elves were eaten, just a vast number of them. Some escaped into the Realms and during the Age of Myth they, along with humans and others who fled, started to populate and build cities and the like

The average Aelf is natural born. Within Daughters of Khaine only the Melusai and Khinerai are remade from souls saved from Slaanesh. The rest of the Witch Aelves, warlocks and queens are all natural normal aelves. The Bloodwracks are the result of a normal aelf being bitten by one of Morathi's head snakes which triggers a mutation in them.



Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.

Idoneth are, far as I'm aware, the only full "race" of living aelves saved from Slaanesh. However they failed on some level and fled to the seas. They are now "natural born" and don't get fresh souls from Slaanesh's belly (those go to the Aelf Gods for remaking).
Note we've no lore or details on if Melusai or Khinerai can breed or if they can only be made by Morathi using souls from Slaanesh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, we know AoS has a solid track history of tying model releases to the timeline. It’s not to everyone’s taste, but at least it stops the “wE wErE hErE aLl TeH tImE!” shoehorning 40K can suffer from.

In fairness the Malarion army takes up a whole realm and have been there all the time and yet have as yet done almost nothing save appearing in the shadows here and there in a short story. His whole faction has yet to make a single overt and major move in the realms. Then again the Seraphon are quite similar in that so far they've been a touch more on the fringe of the main stories. Doing a few things here and there, but not really making big inroads.


Death dominated the stories of 2nd edition and most of those armies did some pretty major things in the story as a result. Destruction is set to be the 3.0 focus so we can expect Orruks and the like to do a lot more story and narrative elements for quite a while. Indeed likely shaping the early major impacts and events of this edition as it gets established. Esp as the end of 2.0 has seen Nagash dealt some heavy blows to his powerbase.

 nels1031 wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.

Seems a bit like poisoning the well.

I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.

Turns out you were right and they were wrong. Mostly people exalting the post. Who would have thought that generalizing an entire group of gamers would turn out to be so wrong. I'm surprised the gaming community still does this. Trying to Pidgeon-hole all AoS players into a certain frame of mind is naïve and dumb. Let's not come into this forum as WHFB or prospective The Old World players and try to sow discourse or spread falsities in this AoS post, thanks!

Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.

Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.

Cronch wrote:

Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.

Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.

Ahh thought the base lumineth were normal and then the constructs were the saved. So the constructs and the regular are all saved souls then?

There's also Idoneth, that are a throughly botched attempt at recycling elf souls, most of which don't even have full souls.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I was about to start on a post about how it is actually natural that all the new orcs can be defined by a baseline that no longer exists by binging up evolutionary niches, but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.

Long post short, evolution. The boyz that didn't get more feral, 'arder, or more cunning were out-competed and killed off.

First, that's not actually how evolution works.

Second, that's not how fast evolution works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:
Pretty much that. You don't have Baseline Elf to know that idoneth are the sea vampire elves, the lumineth are the smug bastard elves and dok are the DoK are serpent elves. They exist perfectly fine without some sort of Basal Elf lineage.

Ironjawz are the armored orcs, Bonejaws are the vacationtime orcs, and now cruella boys are the dalmatians killed my mother orcs. Neither requires weakboys to exist to know what's up with them.

Lumineth are baseline elves. They're just high elves. Elves don't have orc morphology to the sam extent, outside the IDK who get to be the wierd elves and the snek ladies. But the IDK and snek ladies have normal elves to compare to. But there's nothing in the lumineth about how they are different from the standard elf, while all the orc factions inevitably start with "This is what makes them better than your basic boy"

 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:

Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.

Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.

Ahh thought the base lumineth were normal and then the constructs were the saved. So the constructs and the regular are all saved souls then?

The constructs(assuming you're talking about things like the "Spirit of"?) aren't Aelf souls at all. They're literal souls of the Realm of Hysh, given physical form through the artifice of the Aelementari Temples. The mages and craftsmen of the temples work together to build the bodies they inhabit.

Tyrion created the Lumineth from his portion of the souls rescued from Slaanesh, but has shared them with Teclis since the Idoneth went nutterbutters.

I want to note, souls rescued from slaanesh are then born.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.

The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.

I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?

If I collected AoS and basic Orc boys still existed, I'd get them. I always liked your common Goblins and common Orcs, though the common goblin models sucked.

There's something cool about a horde of the most common unit an army has. My Tyranids have plenty of Gaunts, my Imperial Guard have plenty of regular Guardsmen, my WHFB O&G army has a ton of basic Orc Boys and basic Night Goblins (because as mentioned before, the common Goblin models sucked, if they didn't suck I would have had them instead of the Nights).

It makes it so much cooler when your Giant Spider rocks up if it's surrounded by a bunch of regular old Orcs and Goblins.

But then I don't collect AoS, so maybe I'm just not the target audience.

Especially now that orcs are all together in warclans, normal boys would go far in thematically tying the faction together in a way they kinda don't right now.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/25/designers-notes-how-points-changes-make-the-new-edition-more-balanced-than-ever/

So making points costs multiples of 5 makes them more granular not less somehow...

And points needed to go up so that armies would get smaller, so that they have room to maneuver on the now smaller boards.
Why are the boards smaller? Who cares!? It's better this way.

But there's nothing in the lumineth about how they are different from the standard elf

I mean,the whole topic is that there is no standard elf. If lumineth are standard elves, I want to know why. Why shouldn't Idoneth, the first to be made, be the standard and everything afterwards an improvement? If the "natural" elves that were not made by Elven gods (So CoS elves pretty much) are to be the standard, then why, they are the least numerous, by default they can't be the standard elf if they're the minority.
Elves don't need a "standard elf", just like orcs don't need a "standard orc" to understand that ironjaws are massive orcs with heavy armor. That is self-evident.

stratigo wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I was about to start on a post about how it is actually natural that all the new orcs can be defined by a baseline that no longer exists by binging up evolutionary niches, but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.

Long post short, evolution. The boyz that didn't get more feral, 'arder, or more cunning were out-competed and killed off.

First, that's not actually how evolution works.

Second, that's not how fast evolution works.

Nope, not at all. But a basic pop science version of evolution would explain the current state of the orcs. Meanwhile elves are playing with Intelligent Design, and Seraphon, well... aliens

GW wrote:More Granularity

The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units. This is particularly impactful for units on the lower end of the points value spectrum, where you can keenly feel the difference between 70, 75, and 80. It also means we can be more precise than ever before when we adjust points values moving forward.

It's paragraphs like this that remind me that one of the definitions of "literally" can be "figuratively" or "virtually". That is to say, the opposite of what the word means.

To put it another way, you can't describe something as having more granularity or allowing for greater precision when the process you are explaining does neither.

I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing...

Refreshing? Choosing a system with less granularity and then trying to explain that it allows for more precision is refreshing now?

I must not know the definition of granular either. Can somebody explain like I'm 5 why going from 10s to 5s is less granular? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?

Buying enough of them that the sales team tells the writers to nerf them?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing...

Refreshing? Choosing a system with less granularity and then trying to explain that it allows for more precision is refreshing now?

I'm not talking about the 5 point breaks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
I must not know the definition of granular either. Can somebody explain like I'm 5 why going from 10s to 5s is less granular? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all.

People seem to be weirdly attracted to this one tiny piece of the article. They state it is more granular since they're using 5 point increments instead of 10.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
I must not know the definition of granular either. Can somebody explain like I'm 5 why going from 10s to 5s is less granular? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all.

People seem to be weirdly attracted to this one tiny piece of the article. They state it is more granular since they're using 5 point increments instead of 10.

Yea, I'm confused as to how that's wrong? It seems definitively true, that 5 point increments is more granular than 10, but HBMC seems to be indicating the opposite?

Anyways, shooting is slightly reigned in by smaller board sizes, so it's harder for them to stay out of range of your own threats. That's really all they have going besides the general larger points increases to ranged units.

Cronch wrote:

Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.

Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.

"Elf souls" is definitely one of the few areas where less recycling would be an improvement.

Reduce the number of Elves, increase the number of Dwarves, and watch as the world improves...

dwarf fans really are the worst, arent' they.
Dwarfs belong on german lawns, nowhere else.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?

Woods block LoS and terrain now provides easier access to cover.

Problem is the current best shooting unit in the game ignore LoS and does most of its damage via mortal wounds.


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 Arbitrator wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?

Buying enough of them that the sales team tells the writers to nerf them?

Why are you still here? You never have anything to add the discussion but regurgitated 20 year old 'hot takes' that have been thrown out and debunked more times than GW's raised their prices.

Whether a new unit or a popular unit gets better or worse and the degree to which they're adjusted is and has always been largely random. New releases are as likely as not to be garbage and stay garbage for years (primaris), top tier units stay top tier frequently (Morathi, Sentinels) and garbage units stay garbage forever (predator tanks, vanguard hunters, literally dozens of others.)

I WISH GW was competent enough to swap around unit strength the way you think they do. At least then there'd be logic behind it.