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Do Corsair players have to roll on the chart for psyker powers? The rules state 'SELECT', not 'GENERATE'

RAW:

A corsair Baron upgraded to a psyker may 'SELECT' powers from Divination or Telekinesis Disciplines

A corsair void dreamer must always 'SELECT' at least one power from Aethermancy powers presented below and may choose to SELECT additional powers from the divination or Telekenesis disciplines.

itsNot2ndEd wrote:
Do Corsair players have to roll on the chart for psyker powers? The rules state 'SELECT', not 'GENERATE'

RAW:

A corsair Baron upgraded to a psyker may 'SELECT' powers from Divination or Telekinesis Disciplines

A corsair void dreamer must always 'SELECT' at least one power from Aethermancy powers presented below and may choose to SELECT additional powers from the divination or Telekenesis disciplines.

What is the standard method of selecting a psychic power? Random generation. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue otherwise.

If it said "Choose one power" then yes, but otherwise no, you have to "Select", but the method of selecting a power is Random Generation.

Incorrect - that is how you 'generate' psychic powers.

Select means select, choose.

However, here is Sethrin Loths rules. Note the brackets.

"Master Psyker: Loth may select (rather than randomly roll)
three psychic powers from one of the following Psychic
disciplines (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, page
418):"

I'm also inclined to read that as the OP and itsNot2ndEd.

The BRB gives us two options: fixed powers or generating powers from disciplines. It is quite possible for Codices or FW book to specify something else.

Another example of "select powers" is interesting in this context. I couldn't find the guy at first, since his name is Sevrin Loth, a SM FW character for the Red Scorpions chapter.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Red_Scorpions

Wild Psyker: "A model with this special rule follows all the usual rules for Psykers and is considered to have the Psyker special rule, but when called upon to roll on the Perils of the Warp table rolls on the following table instead:"

No other Special condiditons or rules laid out.

They follow the usual rules for Psykers and Psykers randomly generate their powers.

Pg23 BRB "In some army list entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed -- where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers start the game with those powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from among the psychic disciplines know to him."

Nothing else about if it says select or generate...if they know it, their unit sheet will say...if it doesn't specifically say they know a power then they generate randomly.

I don't know Sethrin Loth but he obviously has a unique Special Rule that overrides the BRB...a unique Special Rule the Corsairs Psykers lack.

It feels like they need to roll for their powers. Loth has specific wording allowing him to not roll, while these guys don't.

Mj445 wrote:
Wild Psyker: "A model with this special rule follows all the usual rules for Psykers and is considered to have the Psyker special rule, but when called upon to roll on the Perils of the Warp table rolls on the following table instead:"
No other Special condiditons or rules laid out.
They follow the usual rules for Psykers and Psykers randomly generate their powers.
...
I don't know Sethrin Loth but he obviously has a unique Special Rule that overrides the BRB...a unique Special Rule the Corsairs Psykers lack.

Let's look at the rules in comparison:
Master Psyker: Loth may select (rather than randomly roll) three psychic powers from one of the following Psychic disciplines... IA Badab War
Psyker: A Corsair Prince who is upgraded to a Psyker may select powers from the Divination and Telekinesis Disciplines. IA 11 2nd Ed. p. 158:
Psyker: A Corsair Void Dreamer must always select at least one power from the Aethermancy Discipline laid out below, and may choose to select additional powers from the Divination and Telekinesis Disciplines. IA 11 2nd Ed. p. 160
Psyker: A spiritseer generates his powers from Deamonology (Sanctic), Runes of Battle and Telepathy disciplines. Eldar Craftworlds, p., 111:
Psyker: Chief Librarian Tigurius generates his powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Daemonology, Pryomancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines. Codex Space Marines Adeptus Astartes, p. 117

Many units across many codices have their own unique version of the Psyker rule. Corsair psykers are no exception and their version of the psyker rule is what we are discussing here. As you can see above, the name of the rule stays the same between units (and codices) but the content changes. The only difference between the Corsairs and Sevrin is that his rule has a fancier name and clarifying text. The instructions are functionally identical.

Mj445 wrote:

Pg23 BRB "In some army list entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed -- where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers start the game with those powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from among the psychic disciplines know to him."
Nothing else about if it says select or generate...if they know it, their unit sheet will say...if it doesn't specifically say they know a power then they generate randomly.

It does not matter that the writer of the BRB did not know that Forgeworld would do something different. Clearly, if there is a rule conflict between a general rule and a more specific rule for doing something in a Codex or Army list, the solution isn't to take a magic marker to that codex and strikeout those specific rules. The BRB mentions fixed powers or random generation. IA 11 and the Badab book add selecting powers.

Sevrin Loth has a Special Rule Master Psyker that allows him to select. The Special Rule Wild Psyker doesn't allow that.

The only time "select" even comes up is when the list entry identifies which disciplines they are restricted to and comparing that clear non-Special Rule... to a clear Special Rule from Loth doesn't prove that they can now select whatever they want.

Nowhere else in IA 11 Corsair rules does it say they are special in that regard and the Wild Psyker SR even goes against it saying they are regular psykers that follow the regular rules for psykers.

Mj445 wrote:
Sevrin Loth has a Special Rule Master Psyker that allows him to select. The Special Rule Wild Psyker doesn't allow that.

The only time "select" even comes up is when the list entry identifies which disciplines they are restricted to and comparing that clear non-Special Rule... to a clear Special Rule from Loth doesn't prove that they can now select whatever they want.

Nowhere else in IA 11 Corsair rules does it say they are special in that regard and the Wild Psyker SR even goes against it saying they are regular psykers that follow the regular rules for psykers.

You are confusing different rules.

Wild Psyker is a special rule for the Corsair army list that deals with the army list specific perils table. Yes, it does state that models with this rule follow the general psyker rules laid out in the BRB.
However that is redundant as this is what we would do anyway - unless we have a more specific, conflicting rule instructing us to do something else.
That is exactly what is the case here, with the individual units instances of the Psyker special rule.

Even if you disagree with me in this point, the Wild Psyker special rule is irrelevant to the point we are actually discussing, since the Corsair Prince does not have the Wild Psyker rule, but does have the Psyker rule with the instruction to select powers as detailed above (the Void Dreamer does have the Wild Psyker special rule).

Severin's "Master Psyker" is a unit level rule, just like the Corsair Prince's and the Corsair Void Dreamer "Psyker" special rules, which I quoted above.
As you can see they are not only functionally equivalent, but also identical to Severin's rule in placement as special rules of an individual unit's entry.

RAW these HQ units can select, i.e. manually choose, individual powers from the disciplines open to them.

The Prince/Baron gain Wild Psyker when they pay for it...

That "rule" you are refering to isn't a rule. It is just a way to let you know which discipline your psyker is restricted to. It isn't a regular rule in the BRB, it isn't a Universal Special Rule, and it isn't a Special Rule that anyone gets.

It is quite literally just stating which tables you can use. If it wasn't even there would you say they can't even generate powers? Or since they don't have that psyker thing which tells you what tables to use, then they can't use any? No you would say..."Wild Psyker means they are like regular psykers...so they generate powers and since we don't have restrictions we can choose from whatever table." The fact that that little Psyker box could be gone and Wild Psyker still means the same thing just shows more that there is no rule that lets them just pick

Mj445 wrote:
The Prince/Baron gain Wild Psyker when they pay for it...

Thank you, I missed the part about the Prince gaining Wild Psyker when paying for the upgrade!
However as explained above, that doesn't really make any difference.

Mj445 wrote:

That "rule" you are refering to isn't a rule. It is just a way to let you know which discipline your psyker is restricted to. It isn't a regular rule in the BRB, it isn't a Universal Special Rule, and it isn't a Special Rule that anyone gets.

It is quite literally just stating which tables you can use. If it wasn't even there would you say they can't even generate powers? Or since they don't have that psyker thing which tells you what tables to use, then they can't use any? No you would say..."Wild Psyker means they are like regular psykers...so they generate powers and since we don't have restrictions we can choose from whatever table." The fact that that little Psyker box could be gone and Wild Psyker still means the same thing just shows more that there is no rule that lets them just pick

I'm sorry, but that does not make any sense.

The Psyker rule for each unit is crucial, because otherwise you don't have a rule that permits you to generate, select or whatever your powers. The Psyker rule, or it's equivalent defines that for each unit that can use psychic powers. And yes, without it a psyker has no permission to obtain powers, which barring something like the 7th Ed Daemonology blanket shoe-horn) or fixed powers, indeed means that he doesn't have any powers and no benefits from his mastery level besides being able to use a force weapon or a deny the witch bonus. That is just logical.

Look at other Psykers, I've looked at a bunch of different Codices and each of these unit has a Psyker special rule instructing us on how to determine which powers these units can use.
Also consider a special case like Huron. It's neither fixed nor generated like all other psykers, yet also defined in his unit entry.

Please explain to me the diffrence between these two rules:
Master Psyker: Loth may select (rather than randomly roll) three psychic powers from one of the following Psychic disciplines... IA Badab War
Psyker: A Corsair Prince who is upgraded to a Psyker may select powers from the Divination and Telekinesis Disciplines. IA 11 2nd Ed. p. 158:

I guess what what I'm seeing is that...The box that says Psyker is a set of restrictions for which disciplines your guy can use, beyond that it doesn't have an affect on the rules laid out in the Psychic Phase in the BRB.

The Psyker USR, that all psykers have, on pg 170BRB just says Your model is a Psyker, it has mastery levels, and refer to pg 23 for generating and manifesting psychic powers. The only things that can change the rules in the Psychic Phase section are Special Rules (or wargear but whatever) and under the Special Rules of the Void Dreamer, the Wild Psyker Special Rule doesn't change the Psychic Phase section at all (sans the Perils chart) and just says to treat them like regular Psykers with the Psyker Universal Special Rule.

So in my reasoning, that box Psyker is just a restriction for what disciplines you can select from and it isn't a special rule that affects the Psychic Phase section.

If there is deviation from the rules as defined in the Psychic Phase section then pg156BRB "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule."

Mj445 wrote:
I guess what what I'm seeing is that...The box that says Psyker is a set of restrictions for which disciplines your guy can use, beyond that it doesn't have an affect on the rules laid out in the Psychic Phase in the BRB.

The Psyker USR, that all psykers have, on pg 170BRB just says Your model is a Psyker, it has mastery levels, and refer to pg 23 for generating and manifesting psychic powers. The only things that can change the rules in the Psychic Phase section are Special Rules (or wargear but whatever) and under the Special Rules of the Void Dreamer, the Wild Psyker Special Rule doesn't change the Psychic Phase section at all (sans the Perils chart) and just says to treat them like regular Psykers with the Psyker Universal Special Rule.

So in my reasoning, that box Psyker is just a restriction for what disciplines you can select from and it isn't a special rule that affects the Psychic Phase section.

If there is deviation from the rules as defined in the Psychic Phase section then pg156BRB "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule."

There are many rules with the name "Psyker":
- One is the Psyker USR in the BRB.
- Another is the one listed for your vanilla SM Librarian or a vanilla Farseer or basically any other pskyer that goes "Psyker < unit name> generates his powers from <disciplines list>.
- Yet another is the variation that Severin or Huron use.
- Still another, but basically like Severins is the Psyker Rule that Corsair Prince and Void Dreamer use "Psyker <unit name> may select powers from <disciplines list>.

Those are permissions, not restrictions. Hence the discussion regarding people wanting to summon Eldar with deamons, using the blanket permission to use malefic powers which is not exactly in conflict with the explicit permission to use demonolgy santic.

The Vanilla SM librarian one --> Psyker (Mastery Level 1) is the USR in the BRB as is Sevrins (ie Psyker Mastery Level 3) and the Wild Psyker (Mastery Level 1) means Psyker (Mastery Level1) because of the Wild Psykers rules, so there is only one Special Rule called Psykers and its on pg170BRB

The Special Rule that allows Sevrin to select powers is Master Psyker and is specific in his Special Rules (alongside Psyker ML3).

If the box wasn't there they'd have permission to take whatever discipline they want...the box restricts which school you can choose from...not the other way around.

Mj445 wrote:
The Vanilla SM librarian one --> Psyker (Mastery Level 1) is the USR in the BRB as is Sevrins (ie Psyker Mastery Level 3) and the Wild Psyker (Mastery Level 1) means Psyker (Mastery Level1) because of the Wild Psykers rules, so there is only one Special Rule called Psykers and its on pg170BRB

The Special Rule that allows Sevrin to select powers is Master Psyker and is specific in his Special Rules (alongside Psyker ML3).

If the box wasn't there they'd have permission to take whatever discipline they want...the box restricts which school you can choose from...not the other way around.

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. It's not "a box" it is a rule. A rule giving us permission to do something.

Unless you have explicit permission to do something in the game, you cannot do it.
"Otherwise a psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." BRB.

You require a rule for each psyker that clarifies which fixed powers, disciplines or wack-o unique snowflake method they have to determine their powers.
There is absolutely no difference between Severin's "Master Psyker" and the Prince's datasheet "Psyker" rules. Both are part of the respective unit's datasheet, have a heading and a clear instruction on how to proceed.

If those are not rules - what are they? How come the "master" space marine rule is special? This is crunch, not a Space Marine Battles novella.

You keep pointing at the BRB USR, even though you read IA11 closely enough to spot the Wild Psyker upgrade on the Prince, yet fail to see the Psyker rule on the same datasheet or in fact on any other psyker datasheert.
That is astounding and a tad implausible to me.

That "box" is only ever mentioned once pg 28BRB "...The relevant codex or Army List Entry will detail from which psychic disciplines a Psyker can generate his powers." Nothing else about that part of the Army List Entry modifying the Phase rules on generating from earlier in the book.

Wild Psyker says they follow all the usual rules for psykers...They have the Psyker rule then that means they manifest and generate their powers as on pg23 like the Psyker rule states...what Unique Special Rule then gives them the ability to select powers? Because neither the Wild Psyker nor Psyker Special Rules do.

To say that the Army List Entry detailing from which psychic disciplines a Psyker can generate his powers also now dictates how we generate the powers, even though this isn't what is stated in the brb, seems like a stretch to me.

Except the Corsair Prince's entry specifically gives an alternative to 'generating psychic powers', i.e. selecting them manually.

Note that it doesn't give any instruction as to how many can be selected, hence I believe RAI is to normally 'generate' his powers from the allowed disciplines.

 Shandara wrote:
Except the Corsair Prince's entry specifically gives an alternative to 'generating psychic powers', i.e. selecting them manually.

Note that it doesn't give any instruction as to how many can be selected, hence I believe RAI is to normally 'generate' his powers from the allowed disciplines.

There is no rule allowing them to select. The Princes army list entry only details which disciplines he can use, it isn't suddenly a rule that modifys how we generate...it just lets us know (ie "details from which") schools said Psyker can use (ie "disciplines a Psyker can generate his powers.").

The Psyker rule in the BRB says they have mastery levels and that's how you know how many you can generate.

Show me either 1. The unique Special Rule that says Corsairs can pick (like Master Psyker, which I've already pointed out is distinct from Psyker USR...and Psyker doesn't change how they generate either)
Or 2. The other line of text saying the army list entry detailing from which disciplines a Psyker can use, can also modify how you generate powers (because the only thing I can find is that one sentence on it and only Special Rules can change the games rules in a Phase.)

If anyone can do either of these then they can select powers...if no one can then RAW they follow all the usual rules for Psykers and therefore must randomly generate their powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

There is absolutely no difference between Severin's "Master Psyker" and the Prince's datasheet "Psyker" rules. Both are part of the respective unit's datasheet, have a heading and a clear instruction on how to proceed.

Master Psyker, which is his own unique Special Rule under his "Special Rules" section, lets Sevrin select powers...he also has Psyker (Mastery Level 3), which is also under his "Special Rules" section (right under Master Psyker). It is the rule in the BRB that says hes a Psyker, has mastery lvls, and manifests/generates as per the BRB Psychic Phase section. And he would have to do it normally too, if not for his Master Psyker Special Rule, which lets him pick.

Wild Psyker, which is his own unique Special Rule under his "Special Rules" section, says a Void Dreamer/Prince/Baron are Psykers and follow all the usual rules for Psykers...he then gains the Psyker special rule, which is now also under his "Special Rules" section. It is the rule in the BRB that says hes a Psyker, has mastery lvls, and manifests/generates as per the BRB Psychic Phase section.

Master Psyker and Psyker are indeed different.

So taking that, as I said earlier, clear Special Rule Sevrin gets and comparing it to the army list entry (note: NOT any Special Rule Corsairs get) that details from which disciplines a psyker can generate from is not right and doesn't mean you can pick.


Comparing Master Psyker with Psyker or Wild Psyker (all actual Special Rules) you can see that the first allows you to select, the second just says you are a psyker with mastery levels and go to pg23 for more info, and the third says follow all rules for psykers, respectively.

^One of those allows you to select powers while the other two do not. And since there is no other Special Rule for Corsairs that says anything other than following the usual rules for Psykers...then we follow all the usual rules for Psykers.

If those are not rules - what are they? How come the "master" space marine rule is special? This is crunch, not a Space Marine Battles novella.

I think you misunderstood me...Master Psyker, Psyker, and Wild Psyker are rules...its the box in their army list entry that is titled "Psykers" that I am saying isn't a rule, it is simply detailing which schools your psyker can use as described on pg28 under the Psychic Disciplines section of the Psychic Phase rules section.

 Shandara wrote:
Except the Corsair Prince's entry specifically gives an alternative to 'generating psychic powers', i.e. selecting them manually.

Note that it doesn't give any instruction as to how many can be selected, hence I believe RAI is to normally 'generate' his powers from the allowed disciplines.

The Prince has only mastery level 1, so it is quite clear how many powers he'll select.
The Void dreamer (see rule quote above) has varying mastery level and his rule reflects that.

Mj445 wrote:

If those are not rules - what are they? How come the "master" space marine rule is special? This is crunch, not a Space Marine Battles novella.

I think you misunderstood me...Master Psyker, Psyker, and Wild Psyker are rules...its the box in their army list entry that is titled "Psykers" that I am saying isn't a rule, it is simply detailing which schools your psyker can use as described on pg28 under the Psychic Disciplines section of the Psychic Phase rules section.

Ok, that is just your - quite subjective - opinion though. You don't want to accept the RAW and therefore claim it might be AW, but not R.
To support this claim, you assert that it is required for unit specific special rules to be preceeded by a "special rule" heading or listed explicitly under the non-unit specific special rules in the datasheet.

This claim is not supported by datasheets even in regular Citadel Books. Look at Tigurius. His datasheet includes two paragraphs of text, each preceeded by a heading:
"Master of Prescience - When generating psychic powers, Tigurius may re-roll any roll of the dice to see which powers he knows. In addition, if your army contains Tigurius, you can choose to re-roll any Reserve Rolls that apply to units from the same Detachment."
"Psyker - Chif Librarian Tigurius generates his powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Daemonology, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy Disciplees."

Note that these paragraphs are not labelled as special rules on the datasheet and are not part of the list of special rules not specific to Tiggy.

Following your logic, those paragraphs are fluff and not rules. I disagree.
Those are Tiggy's unique special rules. Same goes for the Prince and the Void Dreamer's unique variation of the Psyker special rule.

 Stephanius wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Except the Corsair Prince's entry specifically gives an alternative to 'generating psychic powers', i.e. selecting them manually.

Note that it doesn't give any instruction as to how many can be selected, hence I believe RAI is to normally 'generate' his powers from the allowed disciplines.

The Prince has only mastery level 1, so it is quite clear how many powers he'll select.
The Void dreamer (see rule quote above) has varying mastery level and his rule reflects that.

His Mastery Level only is used when you are using the 'Number of Psychic Powers' and 'Generating Psychic Powers' section on page 22-23 of the BRB.

If you are selecting them without generating, you would need to know the amount you can select.

Otherwise per page 22 of the BRB, under 'Number of Psychic Powers":

A Psyker's entry will usually state how many psychic how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated , as described opposite.

(emphasis not mine, but not the bit after the bolded part)

If you are using his Mastery Level to determine the amount he knows, they will need to be generated.

Arguing with you about if a rule is just that is silly, as its very clear what is and isn't a Special Rule.

I've stated what I mean and how I came to that conclusion using the BRB and IA 11 as examples.

What this comes down to is:
1. Do the Corsairs have a Special Rule allowing them to bend or break the regular rules?

IMHO this answer is no. Psyker doesn't modify the Psychic Phase rules and neither does Wild Psker (outside of the Perils chart)

2. Can the "...codex or Army List Entry will detail from which psychic disciplines a Psyker can generate his powers." part in the Psychic Phase rule section, also give permission to alter how we generate powers?

IMHO no because that bit you are using to justify selecting powers is only for detailing which schools you can use...it doesn't say "and how to obtain them", it adds no other conditions of its existence other than to let you know what disciplines you may use.

If you have a rebuttal to either of those I'd like to hear it.

You SELECT a table to roll on and then generate powers normally.

I have to agree with MJ. this seems like a case of FW not wording their rules correctly (again)

you can't use the "psyker" description as a special rule in itself because then you would not have the "psyker" rule as described in the brb