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Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

En Garde!/Ronin



These are two different sets of rules put out by Osprey in their “Blue” wargaming series. Each booklet is only about 64 pages long. Therefore, concise, streamlined rules are the order of the day. The two books En Garde and Ronin cover two distinct time periods, but they run on the same basic game engine. This is reminiscent of the Lion Rampant/Dragon Rampant with modifications being in the way the rules are tweaked for the different settings. En Garde! deals with the Renaissance in Europe where Ronin is focused on the samurai period in Japan. Manchu wrote a better Ronin review here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652096.page

One of my favorite things about the Osprey rulesets that I have reviewed previously was that the author clearly laid out their goals and objectives in the Introduction of the work. Therefore, it was easy to determine if they succeeded in their purpose and helped me understand some of their design decisions. Sadly, neither of these rules has the courtesy to talk about the designer process, not even in a Design Notes section. I guess if you only have 64 pages, some of that might get left out.

Things I liked

The game system that runs these two games is most famous for its Combat Pool system. Essentially, each player gets a certain number of chits, and then uses them to determine how much to use to attack or defend with. En Garde! is much clearer with how these rules work when multiple models are engaged against each other than Ronin but both games use the exact same system. Essentially when multiple models are engaged, you pool their combat pool together and all models can pull from the pool.

This adds resource management and tactical decision making to the rules. This is the highlight of the game and the key to its innovations. Plus, it allows for some of the “chrome” of sword play with parries, ripostes, disarming, mighty blows, etc by paying more or less chits to be able to complete them. In addition, models can specialize in certain weapons to differentiate between a guy who is a trained duelist and warrior versus some ruffian who picked up a Yari. This is the big “idea” of the system and it is pretty cool.



Things I Do Not Like

The Combat Pool is really cool and borderline revolutionary, BUT I feel it could be carried out a bit better. In the game, they try and streamline the process down to a single dice roll to determine hit, damage, and armor results. However, this leads to a somewhat cumbersome level of mathematics and modifiers that will require a reference chart for a bit. I feel it would have been more intuitive with a simple opposed dice roll to determine winner, and then any rolls above the opponent would equal hits, that would then be saved in a separate dice roll by the defender. Both players can still participate, but adds a bit more agency for the defender and less arithmetic to determine results.

Also, the system is a bit vague on who attacks who and what is a combined melee and what is an individual melee. In a combined melee, Combat Pools are lumped together so knowing if you are in a combined melee or not matters. In Ronin in particular it is especially unclear as the Combat Example makes it sound like a model can only use as much of the combat pool as they have contributed, BUT in En Garde! it does not seem that way. Therefore, I am still a bit confused on how it works exactly in larger combats. The system is great for one-on-one encounters but undoubtedly, someone will try to gang up on someone else.

Finally, I am unclear about the Morale system. Warbands can be in three categories, Steady, Wavering, and Routing. When they are Wavering and Routing models do not always act as you the player intends and a basic activation roll is needed. It seems clear that when a Wavering model fails activation it is a temporary and one time failure. However, I am less clear about if a Routing Warband model fails the activation? Do they keep running away, or can you make subsequent activation rolls? If there are subsequent activation attempts, then there is no clear “end point” for the game.



Meh and Other Uncertainties

Each model is ranked between 1 and 5 and this sets the level of their skill. In addition, they can have certain skills to help boost them in one area or another. This allows you to build more characterful models and help them feel like individuals. After all, this is a small scale skirmish game!

The game seems like it uses a pretty standard alternating activation system, but again the rules do not lay it out clearly to me. They talk about Priority and alternating with players, but for some reason it was still a bit foggy after reading the rules. I consider this due to space limitations in a 64 page booklets.

One other big difference in the game is how missile weapons work. In Ronin missile weapons have two opportunities to fire. In En Garde! this does not seem to be the case. Since bows are in both games, this was a bit perplexing to me but it might have been simpler in En Garde! to avoid it since most of the weapons are black powder weapons. However, such weapons have a Reload Mechanic so I don’t know why the change.

En Garde! covers things like climbing, falling etc. However, the damage resolution is a bit tough to figure out and a reference guide for such circumstances will be needed. However, how often is that likely to happen?

It has fun and characterful army lists for both periods. I liked the idea of Conquistadors vs. Aztecs in En Garde!. They both come with scenarios, but the ones in Ronin are less generic and there are more of them. They are not the same, but most of them are close enough. Both also offer a simple campaign and progression system as well.

En Garde! has three appendix that cover simplified mass battle, fantastical elements, and inspiration. Ronin only has the inspiration section. It is clear the author has good taste in films! 



Final Thoughts
These rulesets have a lot of good ideas, but the writing and editing needs to be crisper. Perhaps I am just dense? However, the core idea is really strong and I recommend folks give them a try. I am a big fan of Combat Pools in skirmish games, even if I think this one is a bit futzy in an attempt to make all combat resolution occur in a single dice roll, the attempt is still well-worth checking out.

The rulebooks make brief mentions of tournament use, but this is more of a campaign/one-off style of game. I think some of the abstractions make it unsuitable for tournament play. Perhaps if it were expanded a bit in certain key areas, it would be ready for such a challenge, but in its current 64 page streamlined version with scenarios, army lists, and everything else it will still be a fun game and worth buy and painting up models for.





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Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

Ronin pools the stones/counters, and any model can use them. Meaning the weanie Ashigaru can buff up a Samurai and let him carve foes up. However, each character only gets the +/- to values due to their own equipment.

That is, the Yari only works for the guy holding it, not the guy wielding the No-Dachi.

The attribute modifiers can seem a bit daunting, but after you get going it runs smoothly.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

As per my overview, I found the same points confusing. In play, however, no issues cropped up. I think it might be more a problem of how the rules are written than the rules themselves.

   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

I will also say, that I do really want to play En Garde with some pirates and the Musketeers. Charleton Heston turned in cinemas best ever Cardinal. He does such an awesome sanguine meglomaniac, fantastic portrayal.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I've played a couple of games of En Garde now with my Vampire Elf force. I like the system a lot. However some of the weapons points seem a bit off, I'm not sure why a great weapon is more points than a longsword.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

I was looking at some of the resources on the Osprey website and saw they had a Ronin campaign. I thought I would share the link here.

https://doc-10-8o-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/ha0ro937gcuc7l7deffksulhg5h7mbp1/njsd28dhb1m83dgquosv83fmsatfs94k/1462017600000/06095851141361787377/*/0B2UGzFKyUbhOd3hjdTEzNFZjYmc?e=download

It is designed for Koryu vs. Bandits. I am sure such a match up appeals to many.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/30 13:38:36


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Wing Commander





TCS Midway

We played En Garde! with Saxons vs Vikings tonight. The unit builder worked great.

The vikings started in a Saxon village having captured the Bishop who was traveling through at the wrong time. They could loot the dwelings in the village and had to get off one edge of the table. Rather then blockade that end the Saxons tried a pincer movement from the front and behind.

Unfortunately the Viking Jarl was a total wrecking ball vs the Saxon villagers who essentially built a new palisade with all their missed javellin throws. The rear guard vikings held the line long enough for said Jarl to almost single handedly annihilate the Sacon front, eventually routing them.

In the end the Vikings had a crushing victory, sacking the town and kidnapping the Bishop for ransom.

Very good system that I will adapt further for Greek conflict.

Ronin is good for lists and weapons, but En Garde! Improves on it in almost every way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/07 03:48:08


On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Sorry to necro this thread, but I'm trying to get some opinion's on Ronin's combat system. I had my first game today (two 100 point Bushi buntai), and it seemed like it was damn hard to kill anything without ganging up on a model, or wearing them down over a number of turns. We engaged in close combat in turn 3, and the fight didn't end until turn 8, even with a 3v3 melee in the middle.

It also seemed like once everyone got stuck into combat, the was no longer any real maneuvering to do anymore, although this may be because we played with so few models.

Is this the case for the game? Or were we potentially doing something wrong?

   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

It can go for a while or be very fast. It is designed more like actual combat than 40k's bum rush with an instant result.

The higher level characters seem to last for a while, but rank 1 and 2 vs a 3 or four can be slow or instantly over.

My peasants with yari, even grouped up, got annihilated by mounted Samurai.

It really depends on rolls and how agressive you are. It is rare that combats will end in a single round, but that adds a little to the game and makes for some epic fights. Take yourself out of the instant result mindset and you will find the combats are engrossing and something worth talking about.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Seems like a fine explanation to me.

Any thoughts on the lack of movement once models get into combat?

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Scotland

Is lack of movement once you're in combat a problem? Movement is important in the early stages of the game when you're trying to get into the most advantage fights but once you're in combat it seems reasonable to me that movement slows down.

Combat is the meat of the game in any case and what you do with your combat pool has a big impact on how fights go.
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

infinite_array wrote:
Seems like a fine explanation to me.

Any thoughts on the lack of movement once models get into combat?


You can disengage from combat if you wish. This can be useful if you have a group vs a single fighter. It is risky, but it might mean you can intercept another model. I do not have En Garde! in front of me, but I think one of the abilities in it allows an easier disengagement.

I can see where you are going though, making the fight more akin to scenes you might see in film where folks start a duel, and then it ranges all over the tavern. Jumping on tables, flinging tableware, et al. it could be done but would take some thought to make it work correctly, as at best knocking them backwards over a table would stun/disarm them (i.e. render them easier to kill on a follow up maneuver).

One thing to remember, combat 'stones' pool. So the contributing model does not have to be the one to spend them. This is to mimic the mook with a spear temporarily distracting the opponent to enable your 'hero' to either press the advantage or beat back an otherwise fatal attack. In this regard, it is trying, in some ways, to effect the above without worrying about the details of the above.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Ah, I believe that might have been a mistake on our part - we read the rules as though models couldn't spend more CP tokens than their CP value, instead of just attacks.

So in a combat where one side had, say, 6 attack tokens in the pool, a Samurai could spend all six (three attacks, three Enhancements) over the course of three rounds in a turn's combat?

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Scotland

That section of the rules is not very clearly written to me at least. You can't make more than your CP worth of attacks and a model can't spend attack stones to help another. They can spend defence stones to help another model. Therefore I'd say that you can't attack more times than your CP pool including attack enhancing in that total. However due to combat pooling and defence sharing you could go above your CP with say 3 attack + 3 defence. Stones are also not allocated until spent.
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

Enhancing does not affect your allowed number of attacks. In practice, it is rare to not use extra stones to enhance attacks.

One note is that if you enhance initiative, that does have to be spent on a particular model and cannot be used to enhance whoever after the roll. You must choose who you are enhancing before enhancing initiative. It still comes from the group pool, but must be allocated to a model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 01:36:49


On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Scotland

I'm not following 100%, I see it like this:

Attack enhancing might not count as an attack directly but you still can't spend more attack stones than your CP and you need to spend attack stones to attack enhance.

Other models can spend their defence stones to enhance another models defence but not attack stones.

So if your 3 CP model attacks and enhances twice it spent 4 attack stones which means another friendly model in the fight must have spent giving it an attack stones which it can't do.

The rules suggest allocating stones to each models from the group pool as you spend them to keep track. I see a fighting going something like this:

A1 with 3 CP - Enhanced attack (2 stones)
B - Attack A1
A2 with 2 CP - Defence enhance for A1 (1 stone)
A2 - Pass or attack if 4 attack 1defence.
A1 - Attack (3 Stones)
B - Attack A2
A2 - Defence enhance (2 stone) or nothing if 4 attack 1defence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 16:15:57


 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

We've tended to play it that you can spend for enhance as well from the pool, as you are supposed to pool everyone.

I reread the section and that could be wrong, but it doesn't really break the game any so I doubt we'll change. I will have to remember the capping attacks (it has never come up that I can remember, but I had missed that in the several times I've read the rules).

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Scotland

You do pool everyone, you just keep track of who's spending it. TBH we mostly play the same way as you because it's easier not having to keep track of everything.
   
Made in no
Terrifying Doombull





Hefnaheim

Thnaks for the explenation, these really helps
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

So, with two different periods under our belt, periods not 'covered' by En Garde!, I think I can safely say this is a great set of rules for whatever you are wanting to game:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/474587.page#9002119

That is a Bat Rep from our Friday night game using En Garde!, or as I will call it from now on, The Push! to play a Pelopponesian War raid on the Spartan coast.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

Friday night update from our group. Ronin three player match:

http://wfhgs.com/friday.html

I borrowed some ideas from Shogun, with a hostage being guarded by shogun troops, with a ninja raid meant to cause dissention/weaken factions. The game was very close, and the ninja are just brutal. They steam rolled the hostage's escort, and the hostage managed to get herself captured, albeit briefly, by the shogun's guards.

http://wfhgs.com/friday.html


On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




I found this review very interesting, thank you!

I like Ganesha Games products (I have played SOBH and Song of Shadow and Dust) and I would appreciate if someone could sketch a comparison between En Garde and Ganesha rules (in particular, Flashing Steel).
Is the complexity level comparable? Pros and cons of the two systems?
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Frozen Wasteland

evandro wrote:
I found this review very interesting, thank you!

I like Ganesha Games products (I have played SOBH and Song of Shadow and Dust) and I would appreciate if someone could sketch a comparison between En Garde and Ganesha rules (in particular, Flashing Steel).
Is the complexity level comparable? Pros and cons of the two systems?


Evandro, here is a free pdf of Bushi no Yume which is medieval Japanese skirmish combat using Ganesha's "Songs of....." game system. Enjoy.

https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1495/14/1495147600740.pdf

"This I have known ever since I stretched out my fingers to the abomination within that great gilded frame; stretched out my fingers and touched a cold and unyielding surface of polished glass."

H. P. Lovecraft, "The Outsider"  
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

I find Ganesha Games systems to be..... not to my taste. The initiative system is nice but the two stat rules supplemented by a load of special rules are not to my liking. Others like it alot.

En Garde/Ronin's key innovations is the "pool" used to determine attacks/defense. It is a cool mechanic, but again not to everyone's taste as it breaks all battles into a series of 1v1 duels.

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Fresh-Faced New User




Frozen Wasteland

I also enjoy Ronin and En Garde. Even though I like the streamlined mechanism in En Garde a bit better. I now just use Ronin to point out by Buntai. Luckily, I do enjoy the Ganesha games too. They are a bit more simple and I use them for convention games where no one has seen or been previously familiar with the rules. Ronin and En Garde are great rules, but maybe a bit too complex in a convention setting with 4 potential newbies. Just my $.02

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 15:21:30


"This I have known ever since I stretched out my fingers to the abomination within that great gilded frame; stretched out my fingers and touched a cold and unyielding surface of polished glass."

H. P. Lovecraft, "The Outsider"  
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

 rckrebs wrote:
I also enjoy Ronin and En Garde. Even though I like the streamlined mechanism in En Garde a bit better. I now just use Ronin to point out by Buntai. Luckily, I do enjoy the Ganesha games too. They are a bit more simple and I use them for convention games where no one has seen or been previously familiar with the rules. Ronin and En Garde are great rules, but maybe a bit too complex in a convention setting with 4 potential newbies. Just my $.02


I've been able to teach the game to my kids pretty easily. The only major complexity is learning the plus/minus of equipment and modifiers. I would not think it too difficult to run at a convention, certainly easier than Blitzkrieg Commander or Hail Caesar!, both of which I've seen run at convention with total wargamer newbies.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
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