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Grey Templar wrote:the lance does put more energy out, but that energy is used to bypass void shields rather then damage the ship.

But does it? From every source that I have available, a single lance hit doesn't overload the shields, but is dissapated by them. It takes a barrage of hits to overload the shields.

Andrew

lances focus energy on a single point. this bores a hole through the shield sending the, now less powerful, beam into the hull.

this is represented by the fact that in BFG lances ignore shields neither being stopped nor taking them down.

Wait... you mean in BFG, shields only help against weapon batteries? By what mechanism are torpedoes immune to shields? Why would the solid projectiles from the weapon batteries be stopped? Why aren't lances stopped...

Void shields = WTF.

I always interpreted void shields as dissipating or absorbing kinetic energy above a certain "threshold" velocity. So fast-moving particle beams and hypervelocity shells of a weapons battery are slowed down to the point that they simply bounce off the hull, but torpedoes, which can accelerate after penetrating the shields and are designed to work at low velocity anyway, are basically unaffected. Lances simply overload the shield at the point of impact, throwing so much energy into it that it "flickers" and lets a blast through.

This also resolves the magnitude issue. Torpedoes can deliver their entire force directly to the guts of the ship, because they can pass through the shield unaffected, and probably penetrate some distance into armor before detonating. Ordnance and lances are forced to spend most of the energy contained in them battering down the shields before they make contact, however, and presumably those shields are constantly trying to re-establish themselves and have to be shot down repeatedly.

Furthermore, while it's true that each "wave" of torpedoes does one hit of damage, isn't the 690 gigaton figure supposed to be one SINGULAR torpedo?

Grey Templar wrote:lances focus energy on a single point. this bores a hole through the shield sending the, now less powerful, beam into the hull.

this is represented by the fact that in BFG lances ignore shields neither being stopped nor taking them down.

Can you give me a page number for that, because I can't find it?

Lances ignore armour and hit of a flat 4+, that I can find.

Cheers

Andrew


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BeRzErKeR wrote:Furthermore, while it's true that each "wave" of torpedoes does one hit of damage, isn't the 690 gigaton figure supposed to be one SINGULAR torpedo?

Yes and no, torps are rated in strength. So a strength 6 "wave" can do up to 6 points of damage. The gigaton figure is from a quote in the original spacehulk, in which a torp has 122? warheads each at 5GT, IE a MIRV. Someone please correct me if I got that wrong.

Cheers

Andrew

@AndrewC: That's interesting. If the Space Hulk torpedo is indeed a MIRV, then all the weapon yields need to be downgraded again as multiple warheads vs. single super werhead would be akin to buckshot vs. a solid slug.

If the armor is damaged by 5GT warheads, anything at 1TT or greater is going to one-shot the ship.

@GreyTemplar: I've been going by the assumption that void shields block 50% of non-torpedo weapons. Is this too little or too much in your mind? GW does a terrible job of quantifying this technology.

Simply put. The Justice League. And I mean all of them, including affiliate members. Add the Green Lantern Corps as back up and the IoM is done like dinner.

keezus wrote:@AndrewC: That's interesting. If the Space Hulk torpedo is indeed a MIRV, then all the weapon yields need to be downgraded again as multiple warheads vs. single super werhead would be akin to buckshot vs. a solid slug.

If the armor is damaged by 5GT warheads, anything at 1TT or greater is going to one-shot the ship.

Lets be honest here, I'm trying to reconcile a game system against someones perception via fiction.

From what I can gather the torpedos is BFG can be directly attributable to the number of launchers. A ship with 6 tubes launches a str 6 wave. 1 per torp. Once the torp approaches to within detection radius, (a small/large flying base) at 1000k per 1cm, so thats app 1k for a cruiser and 2k for a battleship, the torp attacks. The description of the weapons seems to suggest that a direct hit, is a rarity (lances excluded) A firing ship simply brackets the targetted area with a massive explosion. The use of MIRVs seems to back that theory up. 122 individual warheads exploding should cover a lot of space!

Void shields are noted as destroying individual ships as they pass though as welll as allowing torps and bombers through unscathed.

You couldn't make it up could you

Cheers

Andrew

Mass Effect's main bad guy, the reapers.

keezus wrote:@AndrewC: That's interesting. If the Space Hulk torpedo is indeed a MIRV, then all the weapon yields need to be downgraded again as multiple warheads vs. single super werhead would be akin to buckshot vs. a solid slug.

If the armor is damaged by 5GT warheads, anything at 1TT or greater is going to one-shot the ship.

@GreyTemplar: I've been going by the assumption that void shields block 50% of non-torpedo weapons. Is this too little or too much in your mind? GW does a terrible job of quantifying this technology.

Voids block 100% of weapons damage(barring Lances) untill the pressure on the generators becomes too great(danger of backwash of energy into reactors) and the safety systems shut the voids down untill the generators can recharge.


the way Voids work in both the BFG and 40k rules supports this. Voids in BFG allow the ship to ignore X number of damaging shots each turn. after that number is reached the ship begins to use it's armor save(IIRC)

in 40k Voids work like this. you shoot at the vehicle and roll to damage the Voids AV of 12. if you damage it the void drops. after all voids are gone you begin to attack the vehicle as normal. Voids in 40k are regenerated on a 5+ each turn.

Another IoM from an alternate reality - where the Soviet Union, the Ancient Egyptians, or perhaps Ze Nazis have ruled Earth for the last 40,000 years...




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PS on the subject of mega-guns - consider this one -

Construct a wormhole portal into a pinched-off little sealed universe. Now drill a huge nickel-iron slug from the core of a planet - we're talking about roughly 1/2 the mass of the Earth. Put the slug through the portal, move the portal near your target (a couple light-minutes oughta do it)...
Now just give the big lump of nickel and iron a little tap... because the whole wormhole thing screws with the relationships between mass, energy and speed, most of that huge chunk comes out at fraction-below-c speeds, shotgunning a planet like a soft boiled egg.

How does it work? I don't know, I'm just a puny human. But getting Geocored into next century... if it looks cool and blows up planets, then like the death star I'm all for it.

@AndrewC: I'm with you on that logic... The IoM is all about quantity over quality. Targetting is for sissies - just saturate the area with ordinance.

I'm trying to narrow down probable upper and lower limits of weapon strengths so that ship durability can be extrapolated. The stated range of weapon strengths is in the 10^6+ range - per all the seperate calcs that Ivan keeps plugging from SD.net aren't suitable for this task as any ship that can survive hits from the big guns should be by extension mostly invincible against most things 10^2x less powerful and virtually impervious against anything 10^3 less powerful.

Without an expected range for ship durability, there is no point in any debate as the ships are always "as durable as needed" just by pointing to the appropriate singular damage calculation - even though the ranges of values don't make sense even within the context of 40k.

@GreyTemplar: Ok. So the shields are dropped by saturation and then we get direct hits. By that logic, any weapon yields from ordinance should be within a magnitude of 10-100 (although I'd tend to the lower portion of that range) from the power of torpedoes - as anything higher would suggest a one-shot kill as soon as the shields go down...


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Crantor wrote:Simply put. The Justice League. And I mean all of them, including affiliate members. Add the Green Lantern Corps as back up and the IoM is done like dinner.

Green Lantern Corps(e) would get slaughtered by the Imperial Fists (or anything else painted yellow).

I'd say high tech level/end game races from the "Space Empires" game series would stand a decent chance.

While they control a far fewer planets than the IoM, they're well-networked coordinated and cohesive entities. The IoM is a giant awkward, lumbering beast of a thing.

Tech-wise they've got a leg up in a few areas. hBlowing whole planets into tiny chunks is mid-tier trick at best. Hell, even the torpedo that blows up a star (Along with everything else in the System) isn't the height of destruction.They've got the edge in mobility too, being able to open or collapse a stable wormhole to near any part of the galaxy that provides instantaneous, reliable, safe, limitless transfer between two points. Cloaking is easy, plentiful and even comes in multiple varieties. Sensors and communication are also vastly more accurate, reliable and quick.

Additionally they understand their tech, can develop new tech, and readily adapt that of others.

Things like ship-to-ship combat are harder to judge. The game is inconsistent at best about the size of your vessels, and it's not exactly clear how weapons would interact universe to universe. How exactly do phased shield generators interact with 40k weapons? Do void shields stop Null-Space Projectors?

After rewatch some of the newer Doctor Who's. It came to me the Timeloads, they use the weapon the Doctor stopped them from using in the Time Wars. No one wins or loses, as time never started.

assuming Wormhole space = Warp space. the IoM does nothing but Wormhole travel.


Void Shields work by "deflecting" incoming energy and objects capable of damaging the vessal into the warp. Null space projecters would likely be stopped(although they would be very good at damaging Voids)


Space Empires would dance around the IoM for a time, but the IoM would simply take out their planets one by one cutting off supply and whittling their fleet down.

Grey Templar wrote:assuming Wormhole space = Warp space. the IoM does nothing but Wormhole travel.

That's a big assumption. Wormhole travel in SE doesn't involve the "Warp" in the 40k sense, with all it's problems of unpredictability, unreliability, inaccuracy and well Deamons.

It'd certainly be one avenue to argue that for the purposes of the discussion, we'll have the SE folks play on 40k terms. I'm not exactly sure that's fair to either side though.

Void Shields work by "deflecting" incoming energy and objects capable of damaging the vessal into the warp. Null space projectors would likely be stopped(although they would be very good at damaging Voids)

Well, in SE Null-Space projectors simply bypass all shields and armor. The "Projectiles" for a lack of better word effectively don't exist until they get to their target. Again it's kind of a wonky area without a real adapter or interface for the two universes.

It's worth noting that if SE Warp Points (Worm Holes) do operate on the 40k "Warp", that puts a rather dangerous weapon in their arsenal. Wormhole Beams that force targets out of normal space, usually these are used to disrupt movement (since FTL travel is harmless and reliable on SE rules) but in the 40k universe, it's a good way to send the enemy on a trip they won't come back from.

Space Empires would dance around the IoM for a time, but the IoM would simply take out their planets one by one cutting off supply and whittling their fleet down.

Well, if we operate off the assumption that 40k "Warp" = SE "Warp Points" (Wormholes) then IoM can't even get to their planets. Technology that locks out the creation of Wormhole openings in a given system is rather commonplace. IoM would be stuck trying to get there at sub-light speeds.

If we assume they're different, the IoM can get in. However, then you have to take into account that SE races have mobile shipyards capable of Wormhole travel in their own right. Whittling a fleet down is very hard when the points of production can rapidly change position to any point in the galaxy at a moments notice.

EDIT: I'm dumb

Actually no. If anyone came to the 40k universe they will suffer the effects of the 40k universe. Like the tyranids nomming on them, and the effects of the warp. As daemons would corrupt the crews of the US. Enterprise and turn Captain Kirk into a Worshipper of Slaanesh. Just imagine that! But it kinda makes sense.
Anyway the 40k universe in my mind still has the Star Trek Universe beat. As the United Federation only has so many ships.
Compared to the imperium which has millions of millions of ships, that are as large as a borg cubes. The only thing I think that can beat the Imperium is Nanobots!

Asherian Command wrote:Actually no. If anyone came to the 40k universe they will suffer the effects of the 40k universe. Like the tyranids nomming on them, and the effects of the warp. As daemons would corrupt the crews of the US. Enterprise and turn Captain Kirk into a Worshipper of Slaanesh. Just imagine that! But it kinda makes sense.
Anyway the 40k universe in my mind still has the Star Trek Universe beat. As the United Federation only has so many ships.
Compared to the imperium which has millions of millions of ships, that are as large as a borg cubes. The only thing I think that can beat the Imperium is Nanobots!

Why are we assuming that this conflict is happening in the 40k universe though? We could just as easily put the IoM on the rules of some other fictional universe as we can the members of some other fictional universe on the rules of 40k.

Both are legitimate approaches but I'm not really found of either. What prefer in these kinds of "VS" Scenarios is that you play on neutral ground where both universes play on their own rules, and attempt to make the two interface with as little interference with each other when unique elements clash with each other.

TheCyben wrote:Another IoM from an alternate reality - where the Soviet Union, the Ancient Egyptians, or perhaps Ze Nazis have ruled Earth for the last 40,000 years...

your a buit late to that party, about 10 pages ago I mentioned an IoM from an alternate reality, I just wasn't specific about it.

But that is one hell of a mach up I would like to see! IoM Vs IoM

Nano bots vs IOM! Who would win!
Or
The Iron Men VS IOM
or
Dragon Ball Z vs IOM!
or
IOM VS IOM
or
Old ones vs IOM!
or
Mechanicum vs IOM!
or
DLS lore of the New IOM vs IOM
or
The Angels vs the IOM
or
God vs the IOM
or
Heaven vs the IOM
or
Hell vs the IOM
or
Alternate Universe IOM vs IOM
well thats all the ideas i can think of.

Asherian Command wrote:
Nano bots vs IOM! Who would win!

Mechanicum uses Nanobots currently

Dragon Ball Z vs IOM!

lol IoM


IOM VS IOM

Why

Old ones vs IOM!

Old ones are dead

Mechanicum vs IOM!

Not gonna happen, they need each other

The Angels vs the IOM

nah, they are a lousy baseball team

God vs the IOM

God

Heaven vs the IOM

Redundency


Hell vs the IOM

been trying for 10,000 years

Alternate Universe IOM vs IOM

the IoM wins

As much as it pains me to say so, DLS's new IoM would lose to the current IoM.
why you ask, warp travel is now highly unreilable since there is no astronomcan, it took creed 50 years to reach terra from Cadia by making short jumps.
[spoilers] Most of their forces are disorganised, they lost the ultramarines to form an independent empire (proberly a good thing) .
the blood angels are mostly dead or insane. Armegedon is gone! the Imperial fists are off running away after killing the squats high council.

But they gained New tech from the AdMech, Alpha legion, 1k sons and the primarchs Russ, Vulkan and the white scar guy.
DLS's IoM has no central command structure anymore since the Sol system was made independent, nothing has happened since the second seige of terra[/spoiler]

What is DLS?

some fan fic?

Dark Lord Seanron's death of the Emperor fanfic, a continuation of the 40k storyline. It currently saved as articles in 6 parts so you don't have to go through like 80 pages of OMG DIS IS EPIC!!!!1 then though it is really good
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_The_Emperor_-_A_Continuation_of_the_40K_Universe_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_the_Emperor:_Vol._2_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_The_Emperor:_Vol._3_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_The_Emperor:_Vol._4_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_The_Emperor:_Vol._5_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/the_death_of_the_Emperor_Vol._6

He hasn't finished it yet, but last time I heard he was finishing off his book for BL.

Grey Templar wrote:
the way Voids work in both the BFG and 40k rules supports this. Voids in BFG allow the ship to ignore X number of damaging shots each turn. after that number is reached the ship begins to use it's armor save(IIRC)

Unfortunately your memory has let you down. The shields allow you to ignore X number of hits. But you have to use the armour value to determine if you have hit, lances do not use the armour value but simply hit on a 4+. Torpedos ignore shields.

So firing at the front of a cruiser with Shields 2 and Armour 6 would require 6s on the die to hit, with the first 2 hits ignored. Lances hit on 4+ but are still stopped by shields and torps hit on 6+ but ignore shields.

Cheers

Andrew

Any fictional race or civilization that passes the Imperium on this scale would more or less beat the Imperium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kardashev_scale

Anything tier 3 and up would simply stomp the Imperium.

ZERG RUSH!!!!!

with tyranids to help out.

Asherian Command wrote:Actually no. If anyone came to the 40k universe they will suffer the effects of the 40k universe. Like the tyranids nomming on them, and the effects of the warp. As daemons would corrupt the crews of the US. Enterprise and turn Captain Kirk into a Worshipper of Slaanesh. Just imagine that! But it kinda makes sense.
Anyway the 40k universe in my mind still has the Star Trek Universe beat. As the United Federation only has so many ships.
Compared to the imperium which has millions of millions of ships, that are as large as a borg cubes. The only thing I think that can beat the Imperium is Nanobots!

Thats the problem with this debate. Everyone compares the full weight of the IoM, when the IoM can't put their full weight against anything. They can't even beat the freaking Tau.

If you put the 41st Millennium IoM against the SW galaxy, ST galaxy, or a whole slew of sci fi universes, they would be as numbingly stupid as they are in 40K. Just like every other major player is stymied against the other powers

With their myriads of space capable races, the SW and ST galaxies would do just fine, just fine indeed in the galaxy of 40K.

I doubt it. Chaos is FAR more pervasive than "the dark side".

The Black Lantern Corps.

If they get to Terra it would be awesome. Black Lantern Emperor.