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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe you're confusing them with destroyers?

Breacher guns are okay. It's essentially a weaker plasma gun. 2 shots at bs4.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




On top of that, they are T4 and not T5
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




psipso wrote:
On top of that, they are T4 and not T5


Both Breachers and Destroyers are S5/T5.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





psipso wrote:
Breton wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
That wargear is mandatory, so 35 is a minimum, but yes. If those marine dudes cost at least 35 with their weapons that would be ok

Terminators are roughly 35 with a 2+, invuln, powerfist and an arguably equal/better gun.
Heavy intercessor war gear is also mandatory.

And as mentioned at 20 points per PL, 7 PL for 5 guys is 28ppm.


How's an storm bolter an arguably equal/better gun? Also, regular terminators are no op sec., are elite and they invul save almost pointless because they 2+ save
. More shots always rapid firing slightly shorter range assuming the “default” heavy bolt rapid fire 1.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.


Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote:
More shots always rapid firing slightly shorter range assuming the “default” heavy bolt rapid fire 1.


I do wonder if Gravis will get Bolter Discipline as terminators do now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 01:51:57


   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I wonder if the Heavy Intercessor Sergeants will get some options, or if it's another Infiltrator/Incursor situation.

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.


from the warhammer community codex preview article
A multipart Assault Intercessors kit is also on its way. In addition to more flexible posing options throughout, the squad’s Sergeant can be assembled with a hand flamer or plasma pistol, and can even wield a power sword, power fist, or thunder hammer too!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
Breton wrote:
They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.


from the warhammer community codex preview article
A multipart Assault Intercessors kit is also on its way. In addition to more flexible posing options throughout, the squad’s Sergeant can be assembled with a hand flamer or plasma pistol, and can even wield a power sword, power fist, or thunder hammer too!


That's the assault intercessor, OP was asking about the Heavy Intercessor. This may be partially my fault for predicting and snarking about the as yet fictional Heavy Assault Intercessor Kit due out in 2021 or early 2022.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Breton wrote:
They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.


from the warhammer community codex preview article
A multipart Assault Intercessors kit is also on its way. In addition to more flexible posing options throughout, the squad’s Sergeant can be assembled with a hand flamer or plasma pistol, and can even wield a power sword, power fist, or thunder hammer too!


That's the assault intercessor, OP was asking about the Heavy Intercessor. This may be partially my fault for predicting and snarking about the as yet fictional Heavy Assault Intercessor Kit due out in 2021 or early 2022.


ahh yeah, the heavy intercessor doesn't. I think heavy intercessors will have some uses and I might snag a box or two but my primary infantry will remain the tactical intercessor

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:


ahh yeah, the heavy intercessor doesn't. I think heavy intercessors will have some uses and I might snag a box or two but my primary infantry will remain the tactical intercessor


I've been waiting a long long long time to be able to play Combi-wing again. If the Outriders and Speeders make a decent Ravenwing force, and the DA fluff doesn't directly contradict it, I'm thinking of painting up some Heavy Intercessors in Bone White armor to be the troops along with the Ravenwing outriders and speeders plus some Termies and/or Bone White Aggressors (on the theory that as Primaris integrate into DA and the first company they'll do so in Gravis armor instead of Tacticus or Phobos. But that's about the only way I see so far to get DA 1st/2nd company Troops. Again unless they bring back FOC magic for Sammael and Belial.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.


Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.

Which will make pricing them tricky. Can't make them too expensive for chapters without deployment and movement shenanigans, can't make them too cheap for the ones that do. It's a problem caused by trying to balance units in any faction with lots of differing strong subfaction rules, and it doesn't just apply to loyalists. 27 PPM for warp talons looks ridiculous for most Legions, but for Night Lords? You actually have to think about it. Maybe there should be a price for subfaction rules.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal




UK

The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.
   
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 Bosskelot wrote:
The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.




If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)

A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.

280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.

Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.

280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.

280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.


Where exactly is the absurd part?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 09:27:24


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ch
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.


Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.

Which will make pricing them tricky. Can't make them too expensive for chapters without deployment and movement shenanigans, can't make them too cheap for the ones that do. It's a problem caused by trying to balance units in any faction with lots of differing strong subfaction rules, and it doesn't just apply to loyalists. 27 PPM for warp talons looks ridiculous for most Legions, but for Night Lords? You actually have to think about it. Maybe there should be a price for subfaction rules.


wouldn't that be a nice system instead of the one we have now, which is making opportunity cost an real issue because it just get's externalised whilest players are forced kinda into a specific subfactions due to the rather devastating effects off the subfactions and the associated stratagems that has on the pricing of the models.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.


Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.

Which will make pricing them tricky. Can't make them too expensive for chapters without deployment and movement shenanigans, can't make them too cheap for the ones that do. It's a problem caused by trying to balance units in any faction with lots of differing strong subfaction rules, and it doesn't just apply to loyalists. 27 PPM for warp talons looks ridiculous for most Legions, but for Night Lords? You actually have to think about it. Maybe there should be a price for subfaction rules.


wouldn't that be a nice system instead of the one we have now, which is making opportunity cost an real issue because it just get's externalised whilest players are forced kinda into a specific subfactions due to the rather devastating effects off the subfactions and the associated stratagems that has on the pricing of the models.

Yes, that's what I was insinuating. Free subfaction rules makes it incredibly difficult to balance units at the faction level. Either subfaction rules should have a price or units should be priced per subfaction instead of per faction.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal




UK

Breton wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.




If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)

A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.

280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.

Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.

280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.

280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.


Where exactly is the absurd part?


What's absurd is your mental gymnastics since you've just listed a whole bunch of units that come off looking worse in the very comparisons you make, at least in the ones that might be able to be directly comparable to HI. Notice how you also make no mention of hit-rates, ranges, AP or Damage numbers, or how certain Chapter Tactics and Doctrines synergize with the unit, or even the roles or situations those units can actually make use of their attacks. I mean is that LRC comparison really meant to be a point in its favour and against HI? Just throwing out laughable numbers of Ork attacks and ignoring their hit rates, poor ranges, lack of Ap and lack of Damage. Like come on, dude.

Having said that, even at 28ppm I don't think HI would be the most busted thing ever, but it still wouldn't be an accurate price point for the unit especially when compared to other Marine units and other units in general. They have very obvious weaknesses and counters, but if made sub-30 they become so cost-efficient as to make those counters practically meaningless. If they're 35+ (especially when looking how every other Gravis model is 40+) then they become reasonable without being too oppressive outside of specific chapters. 28ppm puts them at 2 more points than a bloody Tau Stealth Suit which when comparing the superior weapons, stat-line and special rules is clearly too low.
   
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 Bosskelot wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.




If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)

A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.

280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.

Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.

280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.

280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.


Where exactly is the absurd part?


What's absurd is your mental gymnastics since you've just listed a whole bunch of units that come off looking worse in the very comparisons you make, at least in the ones that might be able to be directly comparable to HI.
They're worse? Do tell. I'm very interested to learn how 35 wounds of boys dealing 105+ close combat attacks when close combat is the best way to take an already controlled objective is worse.

Notice how you also make no mention of hit-rates, ranges, AP or Damage numbers, or how certain Chapter Tactics and Doctrines synergize with the unit, or even the roles or situations those units can actually make use of their attacks. I mean is that LRC comparison really meant to be a point in its favour and against HI? Just throwing out laughable numbers of Ork attacks and ignoring their hit rates, poor ranges, lack of Ap and lack of Damage. Like come on, dude.
Is hitting on 3's bad? What is the AP of 70-80 fewer Heavy Intercessor's close combat attacks?

Having said that, even at 28ppm I don't think HI would be the most busted thing ever, but it still wouldn't be an accurate price point for the unit especially when compared to other Marine units and other units in general.
You mean like the Regular Intercessors I also compared them to? The ones that trade a few wounds for more shots?

They have very obvious weaknesses and counters, but if made sub-30 they become so cost-efficient as to make those counters practically meaningless. If they're 35+ (especially when looking how every other Gravis model is 40+) then they become reasonable without being too oppressive outside of specific chapters. 28ppm puts them at 2 more points than a bloody Tau Stealth Suit which when comparing the superior weapons, stat-line and special rules is clearly too low.


Every other Gravis Model? The ones with a power fist and three times as many shots, or the ones with what basically ammounts to the new 2 shot multi melta that should be at least 20 or so points of the 40?
35? As in Terminators with a more shots, and a power fist?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

ThePorcupine wrote:
Maybe you're confusing them with destroyers?

Breacher guns are okay. It's essentially a weaker plasma gun. 2 shots at bs4.


Or a one-shot meltagun.

Regardless, they're heavier weapons than what these HIs have..
   
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

How are you getting 35 wounds of boyz (which is 1 unit of 30 and a separate unit of 5, which you cannot even take as they are min-size 10 so it would have to be 25 and 10 and both units have to make the charge) into close combat where they are all able to strike?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 11:26:56


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
How are you getting 35 wounds of boyz (which is 1 unit of 30 and a separate unit of 5, which you cannot even take as they are min-size 10 so it would have to be 25 and 10 and both units have to make the charge) into close combat where they are all able to strike?


You can't I don't think, but the HI will be on 40mm bases, 10 of which gives you a hefty footprint
   
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
How are you getting 35 wounds of boyz (which is 1 unit of 30 and a separate unit of 5, which you cannot even take as they are min-size 10 so it would have to be 25 and 10 and both units have to make the charge) into close combat where they are all able to strike?


It was just equal points in a discussion of points value comparisons. You can't take 14 Intercessors either.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.

If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.

If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.


because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.

your basic Nob is 17 PPM, and gains 1 wound and 2 armor for that price. (IMHO the Nob could proably stand to get a points reduction to 16 PPM gven the 17 PPM cost of assault intercessors) assuming Boyz are costed approperatly, they'd proably go up to something like 15 or so PPM, nearly doubling their cost. this would dramaticly cut down on the sizes of Ork armies in terms of bodies and it'd make the line between Nobz and boyz a little too small. so yeah I'd rather see Boyz remain at one wound and Nobz made troops. this would give Orks effectively three tiers of troop quality giving them some flexability in list building

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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In My Lab

BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.

If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.


because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.

your basic Nob is 17 PPM, and gains 1 wound and 2 armor for that price. (IMHO the Nob could proably stand to get a points reduction to 16 PPM gven the 17 PPM cost of assault intercessors) assuming Boyz are costed approperatly, they'd proably go up to something like 15 or so PPM, nearly doubling their cost. this would dramaticly cut down on the sizes of Ork armies in terms of bodies and it'd make the line between Nobz and boyz a little too small. so yeah I'd rather see Boyz remain at one wound and Nobz made troops. this would give Orks effectively three tiers of troop quality giving them some flexability in list building
Why do you say a T4 6+ W2 Troop needs to be 15 PPM?

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Giben how much Lots of basic infantry has been jumped in points eitheir they are all going to 2W or they are about to become something insane interms of rules because nothing so far justifies half of GW crackhead points cost for non marines units compaired to this nuclear weapon level attack on balance that has been marines in the last 6 months.
   
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I'd love it if Ork boyz were 10 points with 2 wounds and say Guardians were 10 points with 1.
Wait did I say love? Reverse it.

I'm hoping Marines get big points hikes to vaguely make things work. It won't happen but don't tread on my dreams.
   
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In My Lab

Tyel wrote:
I'd love it if Ork boyz were 10 points with 2 wounds and say Guardians were 10 points with 1.
Wait did I say love? Reverse it.

I'm hoping Marines get big points hikes to vaguely make things work. It won't happen but don't tread on my dreams.
There's four whole numbers between 10 and 15.

And Guardians are, to my knowledge, overcosted.

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