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 koooaei wrote:
I think kanz are fine. A squad of 6 is quite 240 base and you can throw them in the enemy face with a tellyportas and wrekkin speed now. They also have a smaller base than dreads

They actually both come on the same 60mm base, so they do have a significantly larger footprint if you are tellyporting them down.

Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.

Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.

Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.

Also, rezmekkas redder paint says you "can" take it on a vehicle but most other relics, like Da fixer upperz, states it can "only" be taken by a big mek or mek.

Does that mean you can use rezmekkas redder paint on a non vehicle like a squigosaur beastboss from evil sunz?

Beardedragon wrote:
Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.

Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.

Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.

I believe you can only take the evil sunz one or the badskullz banna from freebooterz that is the 6" aura of turning off enemy obsec. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right that he can't take anything else.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.

Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.

Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.

I believe you can only take the evil sunz one or the badskullz banna from freebooterz that is the 6" aura of turning off enemy obsec. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right that he can't take anything else.

oh yea also the freebootas one.

Yikes. thats unfortunate.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.

Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.

Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.

I believe you can only take the evil sunz one or the badskullz banna from freebooterz that is the 6" aura of turning off enemy obsec. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right that he can't take anything else.

oh yea also the freebootas one.

Yikes. thats unfortunate.

Yeahhhhhh. Fortunately, he by himself isn't terrible (he's certainly improved over his 8th ed incarnation) but it does suck that he lacks customization compared to guys like the Boss on Squigosaur. Was hoping that he could at least swap out his snagga klaw for a relic.

Beardedragon wrote:
Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.

Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.

Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.

Also, rezmekkas redder paint says you "can" take it on a vehicle but most other relics, like Da fixer upperz, states it can "only" be taken by a big mek or mek.

Does that mean you can use rezmekkas redder paint on a non vehicle like a squigosaur beastboss from evil sunz?

You can also give him the Badskull Banner in Freebootas, which is honestly the only subfaction I've been using him in anyway.

IMO, if you're going Evil Sunz, the only way to get actual good mileage out of their trait is to embrace the standard Waagh, so Warboss on Warbike is one hundo percent the way to go. the extra 2" to 3" move turn 1 enables the sunz to employ a turn 1 tempo waagh strategy that's basically inaccessible with anyone else.

You can try to use Redder Paint+Faster than Yous with the speedboss to employ a hybrid model where you have a few turn 1 tempo assault units like kommandos and trukk boyz and you use Faster than Yous to sling a largeish unit of stormboyz, then you dedicate most of the list to dakka weaponry and fully enable the speedwaagh...

but honestly i'm not too fussed about the lack of vehicle relics because of the generally limited scope of the deffkilla. If you're bringing a deffkilla you're constructing the list around him, on purpose to be a dedicated shooty list focused around dakka weaponry.

Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.

How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.

Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?



Not sure about the relics/traits.

I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.

Bad Moonz: Probably the most narrow of the clans the main problem it has is very little way to use 'every part of the buffalo.' The trait is best on Tankbustas and Flash Gits where the bump to 30" range means they will be much more likely to not have to move turn 1 so they can just kick it and start blasting, and the fact that they have inbuilt +1 to hit makes those units bad at being Freebootas, but the strat wants Dakka weaponry and the warlord trait wants a tough fighty boss and the relic wants...a waagh banner nob? The fact that you can't take Gobshot's on a megaboss, the obvious pick for the warlord trait is intensely frustrating.

My best pick: you want to pair a limited-scope Bad Moonz patrol with a Sunz or Goffs anti-infantry list.

in general, a patrol with a single squad of trukk boyz and a selfish warboss of some description , a weirdboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik is a great way to buy in to a couple slots of some clan you want for minimum of inefficient investment. Trukk Boyz are (IMO) our best generic use of a troop slot, and a weirdboy or grotsnik don't particularly care about clan kultur and can just roll with the rest of your list, be it goffs or sunz or whatever.

Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.

Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.

Freebootas: good pick for a mono-culture shooty list with a solid objective game. Lean in heavily on dakka weaponry to make maximum use of the speedwaagh and bring some grot units armed with anti-tank weaponry to kick off Competitive Streak like mek gunz and killa kanz (and presumably grot tanks once they get updated weapon profiles)

Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pepi55 wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.

How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.

Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?

Spoiler:

++ Goffs Patrol Detachment (...) ++

HQ:
1 Weirdboy (70) - Warpath + Da Jump

Troops:
10 Boiz (90)
10 Boiz (90)

Elites:
5 Nobz (105) - Beeg Choppa/Choppa, Trukkboiz
1 Painboy (75) - Grot Orderly, DKK, Proper Killy

Fast Attack:
5 Stormboiz (55)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Trukk (70)

Not sure about the relics/traits.

Seems decently solid, though you'll want to get a warboss in the mix asap to actually get waaagh benefits. For now I'd say relic+trait up the painboy with the killa klaw.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

...

Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry.

Obsec on Kommandos, Meganobz and Stormboyz is potentially really interesting and could cause opponents some real issues, and the single re-roll is still okay.

shabadoit wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

...

Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry.

Obsec on Kommandos, Meganobz and Stormboyz is potentially really interesting and could cause opponents some real issues, and the single re-roll is still okay.

I feel like Deffskullz lends itself very well to a buggy oriented list, and KMB dreads. Then as you said, you fill in some of the gaps with min-squad obsec troops to help grab objectives while your buggies try and shoot/block off the enemy from getting them back.

The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.

Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.

 Jidmah wrote:
The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.

Yup, it's solid for kustom mega weapons we have, and it makes the shokkjump dragsta less of a risk when you jump it/shoot its shokk rifle.

It also helps against psychic powers or strats that dump mortal wounds in some way.

pepi55 wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.

How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.

Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?

Spoiler:

++ Goffs Patrol Detachment (...) ++

HQ:
1 Weirdboy (70) - Warpath + Da Jump

Troops:
10 Boiz (90)
10 Boiz (90)

Elites:
5 Nobz (105) - Beeg Choppa/Choppa, Trukkboiz
1 Painboy (75) - Grot Orderly, DKK, Proper Killy

Fast Attack:
5 Stormboiz (55)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Trukk (70)

Not sure about the relics/traits.

your odds for rolling 9 or higher on 3d6 is 74%

add in a reroll and it becomes 93%


I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.

They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...

hits per 100 points

dread: 7*4/6*100/85 = 5.5
3 kanz: 12*3/6*100/120 = 5

There are a number of armies that deal a lot of mw. So, other than a free re-roll, which is great for small units - which we do seem to heavily lean towards to - 5+++ va mortal wounds is in no way useless. It can be better than 6++ vs some armies. Also, 1ksons and gk are coming out soon, so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Freebootas are an obvious pick for a shooty list in 1500+ pt games. Maybe even 1k. But if you play lower pt games, it's not so obvious any more. If you want shooty and extra mw protection on small squads, ds is still a way to go.

Also, i'm eying blood axes in a buggy heavy list. Yeah, freebootas give you unparralleled shootingness but you don't shoot as well if you are locked in cc turn 1, which quite a number of enemies can perform nowadays.

So, just in case it could be nice to have a bunch of buggies or bikes just to screen yourself t1 or 2. Why not make them blood axes to fall back and shoot afterwards.. .

 the_scotsman wrote:

Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.

Are Warbikes making a comeback? I got rid of my old Gorkamorka warbikes a while ago since they never survived a move in one piece and have been thinking about doing some Nob Warbikers in the future.

oh yea that reminds me, i have a question i cant seem to find the answer to.


Snakebites detatchment rules states you get +1 to wound for squig models if they charge or make a heroic intervention.

Does that mean that that every time you charge, and attack with anything thats a squig, like warboss' attack squig attacks, kill rigs savage hooves and horns attacks, and the squig hogs Squighog Jaws attacks, among many, gets +1 to wound when those specifically attack? So not their riders just the squigs themselves.

Or is it the entire model that gets +1 to wound as long as they have the "Squig" keyword?

 Jidmah wrote:
The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.

Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.

Blood Axes for sure are better. You can often get that cover save, and being untaggable (or able to fall back and charge for another attempt at MW) is not a bad thing. A lot of combat units are relying on lower str, multi damage attacks to get through vehicles, so ramshackle is relevant for when they are getting tagged.

That being said, deathskulls is definitely still just fine. I'd probably save my slots there for stuff like stormboyz though for more mobile obsec, as that I think is the special sauce Deathskulls offers as an army now and it's still really relevant.

Do not know if it has been discussed before, but I think Shokka Hull is a strong upgrade for a Killtank. Maybe also a Battlewagon CC version...

Beardedragon wrote:
oh yea that reminds me, i have a question i cant seem to find the answer to.


Snakebites detatchment rules states you get +1 to wound for squig models if they charge or make a heroic intervention.

Does that mean that that every time you charge, and attack with anything thats a squig, like warboss' attack squig attacks, kill rigs savage hooves and horns attacks, and the squig hogs Squighog Jaws attacks, among many, gets +1 to wound when those specifically attack? So not their riders just the squigs themselves.

Or is it the entire model that gets +1 to wound as long as they have the "Squig" keyword?

The entire model as long as they have the SQUIG keyword. Which the two sleds are missing. So just the squig riders, the nob, the beastboss and the named character.

 Jidmah wrote:
The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.

Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.

Freebootas to me are a better buggy army than deffskullz. I'd rather have the huge boost of everyone being +1 to hit than one single re-roll. Though I suppose it depends on buggy type - as you said shokkjumps are significantly better with DS.

I'm also thinking of 2*3 screening killa kans. Not the most powerful unit but can be quite nice. Needs testingmmaybe just more buggies are better - who knows.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.

Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.

Freebootas to me are a better buggy army than deffskullz. I'd rather have the huge boost of everyone being +1 to hit than one single re-roll. Though I suppose it depends on buggy type - as you said shokkjumps are significantly better with DS.

I feel like Freebootas just have an issue with diminishing returns over the course of a game, you can't always guarantee a unit being wiped to get that +1 to hit and often times it means a significant portion of your army is going without that +1 to hit until you manage to trigger it, which at that point, having guaranteed rerolls would have made a potentially bigger difference. Don't get me wrong, you can definitely skew your list to maximize that kind of killiness to proc the +1 to hit but I feel like its very enemy army dependent and how MSU reliant they are.

+1 to hit is just so tasty vs -1 to hit armies with not so durable stuff like de. Proc +1 with your mek gunz or units with innate +1 like squig buggies or wing missiles or stuff like that and than you start shooting even better to proc yet another +1 and get an army of bs 4 orks

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.

Are Warbikes making a comeback? I got rid of my old Gorkamorka warbikes a while ago since they never survived a move in one piece and have been thinking about doing some Nob Warbikers in the future.

IMO warbikes are best they've ever been.

Theyre basically the posterboy unit for a speedwaagh for anti-chaff infantry, and theyre reliant on almost nothing to do their stuff. If you want to run a speedwaaagh list I think you want:

-Warbikers and 6x supa-shoota dakkajets for anti-chaff
-BDSW for anti-MEQ
-something with Rokkits for anti-tank (doesn't get the dakka bonus, but bumping from AP-2 to AP-3 is almost always highly effective)

So it'd be something like:

Evil Sunz Patrol
-Deffkilla wartrike for SPEEDBOSS with Fasta than Yous/Redder Paint
-1x Trukk Boyz squad
-1 big unit of Deffcoptas (aiming to make use of the shoot and scoot stratagem)
-BDSW
-Dakkajet

Evil Sunz Outrider
-Warboss on Warbike, Killa Klaw+combat trait maybe Roadkilla cause its funny)
-1 unit of stormboyz to get slung in with Fasta than Yous
-min biker squads, BDSWs, Kustom Boosta-blastas, etc.

tulun wrote:
Blood Axes for sure are better. You can often get that cover save,

Sorry, but no. The only way to treat this part of the culture is to assume it doesn't exist and measure 18" before your opponent shoots something that doesn't just ignore all your armor anyways to see if you are lucky enough to get +1. Light cover has made it even less likely to matter.

and being untaggable (or able to fall back and charge for another attempt at MW) is not a bad thing.

Another nope. You can fall back and shoot OR charge, not both. If you just stay in combat you can fight and shoot, for most buggies this is superior to falling back and shooting. It is also worth mentioning that tagging buggies usually involves charging them, and they can fire a pretty mean overwatch.

The trait is exactly the same as in the last codex and I gave it way too many chances before eventually switching to deffskulls. It's 100% worthless for a buggy army.
The only difference to 8th are a pretty decent warlord trait, stratagem and relic - being able to reserve a bunch of buggies to fit more on the table than you normally could is definitely worth a look, and it can even reserve a naut or a plane that you can deploy out front as bait. An extra 2-3 CP can also make a huge difference during the later turns.

That being said, deathskulls is definitely still just fine. I'd probably save my slots there for stuff like stormboyz though for more mobile obsec, as that I think is the special sauce Deathskulls offers as an army now and it's still really relevant.

I'm probably going with warbikers first since they are dead 'ard and super fast. You can probably pull off the shenanigans I did with the vigilus detachment without any stratagem help now, and if you fan them out properly they can give a bunch of buggies -1 to hit at once. Who needs a KFF anyways?

Also, obsec MANz missile.

Deffskulls stormboyz are interesting though - especially since you can also use the 5+++ against them tripping over their rokkit packs.

Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.

 koooaei wrote:
Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.

Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.

 the_scotsman wrote:

-Warbikers and 6x supa-shoota dakkajets for anti-chaff
-BDSW for anti-MEQ
-something with Rokkits for anti-tank (doesn't get the dakka bonus, but bumping from AP-2 to AP-3 is almost always highly effective)

Am I reading that right? 6 Dakkajets? Ho boy.
I normally play Bloodaxes but that setup does sound pretty fun. I'll have to get some warbikers in the future. How is the Boomdakka Snazzwagon? I picked up the Shokkjump Dragsta since I loved the model and I've been considering getting another buggy in the future.

 Dendarien wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.

Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.

Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.

Bikers do work nice in a list with thrakka, though, as they benefit from both waaaghs.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
oh yea that reminds me, i have a question i cant seem to find the answer to.


Snakebites detatchment rules states you get +1 to wound for squig models if they charge or make a heroic intervention.

Does that mean that that every time you charge, and attack with anything thats a squig, like warboss' attack squig attacks, kill rigs savage hooves and horns attacks, and the squig hogs Squighog Jaws attacks, among many, gets +1 to wound when those specifically attack? So not their riders just the squigs themselves.

Or is it the entire model that gets +1 to wound as long as they have the "Squig" keyword?

The entire model as long as they have the SQUIG keyword. Which the two sleds are missing. So just the squig riders, the nob, the beastboss and the named character.

hm. thanks. that is interesting. +1 to wound is pretty good to have. Any stratagems giving you +1 to wound are kind of redundant on those units then i would assume? since they dont stack. But you save the CP then so its great.